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DONE with DENON. Suggestions needed please... - Page 3

post #61 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

One doesn't need a global repair history chart to glean which brands are more reliable. The testimonials and facts about production control speak for themselves. For instance Onkyo's used to heat up and fail a lot, but they've redesigned them to run a lot cooler, and I'm sure it will likely make a difference in reliability too.
There's nothing wrong with discussions involving customer feedback on their reliability experiences. As mentioned, a lot can be gleaned from it. Conversely consumer reports or other type reliability studies may not account for user neglect or abuse, bad batches here and there, or even damage in shipping. You simply don't know because they are just numbers vs actual testimonials where you can get a feel for how much knowledge and experience the end user has., IF you ask vs assume like you did initially.
I just feel to make a blanket statement implying that threads like this have no purpose is a disservice not only to the purpose of this forum, but it's many knowledgeable members whom have spent a lot of time and money buying, operating and sharing their experiences with and knowledge of AV gear. I'm hearing repeated praise for Yamaha and Pioneer on reliability, and I'll add that from my personal experience, Yamaha AVRs are also WAY easier to operate, more flexible and useful in their displays and presets, and have probably the best customer service out there.
Now you can wash that away as insignificant, but most know from personal experience that gleaning feedback from experienced users not only helps people decide what brands/models of AVRs to buy, it keeps the manufacturers more honest, just like we're seeing with Onkyo as of late. So while you ARE on the one hand apologizing for the prior insults, I don't feel you're fully respecting the weight and significance of end user feedback, esp when you have such a great forum as this where many knowledgeable members often step in and clarify any misinformation posted.

My prior insults followed up by apology has nothing to do with reliability of electronic devices, err,...just like your current lengthy post that solved nothing for the subject at hand, yet, caused more confusion. Onkyo's examples can be attributed to bad design, yet, again are to be regarded as something very far away from principles of MTBF well known in the field of electronics. Once corrected the principles will prevail. Agree? smile.gif
post #62 of 111
Let's not get carried away with dismissing this or that post here. The OP has his own opinion based on his experience. That is all. All other opinions are welcome and that is all they are as well. Posting marketing survey or official failure thread numbers is also akin to current election polls due to the many variables. Consider this:

Unit O has a large instance of complaints from users in a forum due to either feature set or unit failure.
Unit D has a lot less of that.
Unit Y and P find themselves with even less.

Unit O sells 10x the number of units than all others combined because it offers more features and performance for the money. (Just an example and I am not going to argue that because the point is volume). Just due to the way things are there will be more failures reported from the higher volume unit than the lower ones.

So I feel this thread does have value, not to run Denon into the ground, but to illustrate how we often get side tracked by owners who are faithful to a brand. There have been plenty of good opinions here whether I like them or not. The thing we must not lose sight of is the use of these forums and the information available to users. It is how you use that information that is most important. Information is useless if you do not know what to do with it. There are plenty of owners out there who are happy with what they have and we rarely hear from them. Again, most people do not log in and say all is well with the unit.

So, what we see is this particular unit has this problem and either everyone has it or not. Then it is fixed or a is a dead dog. That is the value of this forum aside from advice about how to resolve a problem because you do not know what you are doing. If anything, this thread points out the importance of using/interpreting information, and making a halfway educated choice, unless you are like me and try the early adopter road. Ask those questions, buy from a place that allows a return/refund period, and get a decent warranty from a company with good support. This is the information we share here.

One of the best things we do here on the forum is identify and get things fixed or a recall. This is truly a great buyer and owner resource. Now if I am using the forum incorrectly please disregard my post.
post #63 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

My prior insults followed up by apology has nothing to do with reliability of electronic devices, err,...just like your current lengthy post that solved nothing for the subject at hand, yet, caused more confusion.

By saying that you just make it all the more obvious customer testimonials mean nothing to you, yet the repairs involved in such feedback is part of what makes up those reliability statistics you claim are more valid. You're just making it all the more obvious you don't value such feedback, even though it's more detailed than what consumer reports would offer as I said. In saying I'm just adding confusion just compounds your denial of it. Furthermore your assumptive insults do in fact tend to show your lack of concern for details, much as certain manufacturers tend to lose interest in customer's complaints when they get themselves in financial trouble. That's Denon's fault for bad business practices, the customer shouldn't be throttled for it.
Quote:
Onkyo's examples can be attributed to bad design, yet, again are to be regarded as something very far away from principles of MTBF well known in the field of electronics. Once corrected the principles will prevail. Agree? smile.gif
You make it sound as if such bad designs are common, yet why don't you commonly see such problems with Yamahas and Pioneers? Because they're designed without heat issues in the first place, that's why. Besides, I was obviously pointing out that at least Onkyo dealt with them after lots of negative feedback. You seem to miss several points in being so narrow minded. Furthermore, prevailing MTBFs are FAR less significant than the large numbers of problems associated with obvious bad designs, so your mentioning that is more the expected than significant, thus it matters not if anyone agrees. What matters, as I said, is whether a company chooses to recognize problems and change design accordingly, or string customers along with years of out of pocket expenses after warranty, as has been detailed, as has flown over your head apparently while you're in denial.
Edited by Hi Def Fan - 10/1/12 at 1:56am
post #64 of 111
^^^

respectfully request members address the issues, without taking shots or insulting each other

this is a good discussion and I don't want to see the thread mucked up

Thanks
post #65 of 111
To the OP…
Have you ever checked the temperature in your media cabinet where the equipment is kept. I’m just trying to avoid any issues for you down the road. I know you said you have a fan built into the cabinet, but maybe it’s getting hotter than you think.
post #66 of 111
Thread Starter 
Hey All.

Just a quick note here, I never intended this to be a bashing thread of either products or people. While I understand that people have fierce loyalties to certain brands, I am not one of them. I just have had an exceedingly bad experience with Denon and don't feel that I should give them any more of my money. Please don't degenerate this thread into name calling.

Thanks
Mark
post #67 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

To the OP…
Have you ever checked the temperature in your media cabinet where the equipment is kept. I’m just trying to avoid any issues for you down the road. I know you said you have a fan built into the cabinet, but maybe it’s getting hotter than you think.

I have indeed checked the cabinet's temp and find it's in a relatively normal range and if it does start to heat up, we open the doors to allow the heat to escape.

Thanks
Mark
post #68 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

I have indeed checked the cabinet's temp and find it's in a relatively normal range and if it does start to heat up, we open the doors to allow the heat to escape.
Thanks
Mark

With all due respect to you Mark (santora), but if it were me I wouldn't wait till heat starts to build up, but would even disassemble the doors for good. YMMV. smile.gif
post #69 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

With all due respect to you Mark (santora), but if it were me I wouldn't wait till heat starts to build up, but would even disassemble the doors for good. YMMV. smile.gif

I have a built in temperature controlled fan system in addition to the passive heat vents in the cabinet. I'm very picky about this so trust me what I say temperature isn't an issue - that is unless I turn on the PS3 (original model). When the doors were shut it sounded like a jet engine in there! I upgraded it to a slimmer version and the heat issue with it went away.

Mark
post #70 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

With all due respect to you Mark (santora), but if it were me I wouldn't wait till heat starts to build up, but would even disassemble the doors for good. YMMV. smile.gif

I have a built in temperature controlled fan system in addition to the passive heat vents in the cabinet. I'm very picky about this so trust me what I say temperature isn't an issue - that is unless I turn on the PS3 (original model). When the doors were shut it sounded like a jet engine in there! I upgraded it to a slimmer version and the heat issue with it went away.

Mark

I have been reading this thread with interest.... especially the heat issue: I am in the business of cooling electronics

Despite your assurances, I cannot help but wonder if you would have had the same experience with the Denon operated on a shelf outside of a closed (yet ventilated) cabinet

as far as where it is made: I don't think painting a broad brush is valid: whether a product is made in one country or another: Apple seems to know how to get it done properly, just as an example

disclaimer: these are my personal observations, not AVS: and I own/ have owned several Denon receivers and processors

anyway I hope you get a receiver that you are happy with smile.gif
post #71 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

^^^
respectfully request members address the issues, without taking shots or insulting each other
this is a good discussion and I don't want to see the thread mucked up
Thanks

Noted, but I also feel like a victim of the referee that targets the one reacting to the insult. After, all, he did rather passive aggressively imply I'm trolling with confusing posts, after merely pointing out that the feedback that had been given was not only valid, but consistent brand wise within the thread.

If people lose sight of that, this thread will indeed be pointless, and not for mere insults.
post #72 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Noted, but I also feel like a victim of the referee that targets the one reacting to the insult. After, all, he did rather passive aggressively imply I'm trolling with confusing posts, after merely pointing out that the feedback that had been given was not only valid, but consistent brand wise within the thread.
If people lose sight of that, this thread will indeed be pointless, and not for mere insults.

Hi Def Fan...You think this thread is bad... this thread is nothing. How about ya read thru an Emotiva thread LMAO. wink.gif
post #73 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

I have indeed checked the cabinet's temp and find it's in a relatively normal range and if it does start to heat up, we open the doors to allow the heat to escape.
Thanks
Mark

Santora, I'm not trying to pick at you by pressing this point a bit further. Just trying to help. But if you open up the doors if the heat starts to build up... something tells me this does not always happen. The bottom line is you are bound to forget once in a great while. I'm not trying to say the Denon would or wouldn’t have given you problems one way or the other. I'm not trying to point fingers. But I am trying to save you from possible issues with your next A/V unit should you decide to keep your present racking system intact.
Just do yourself a favor and ensure your system is adequately cooling... that's all I am recommending.
FYI: not sure you saw my recommendation, but I’d take a look at an Anthem MRX-300. Has a great room correction system and if you ever do decide to, you could always hook a separate amp to it some day down the road.
Good luck and enjoy the hobby.
post #74 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadChemist View Post

I would personally stay away from Onkyo! I have had a failure of a TX-NR515 and TX-NR717 (which was a replacement for the failed 515) in the last two weeks!
Check out the OnkyoUSA forums. 22 pages of complaints listed on the 515. With the price of the 818, I'd be afraid to purchase it based on quality.
Good luck whatever you decide!

How does the 515 compare in terms of quality to the 818? I see isolated issues and there is an issued with gapless playback, but beyond that mine is a champ.
post #75 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Kind of off on a tangent, but, I've found one way to keep your electronics cool is to get some holes in the shelves. Ideally you want wire mesh shelving or perforated shelving, but few modern cabinets have that. If you have wood shelves, drilling a few 1" diameter holes under and/or above the AVR can make a big difference. Drill some holes in the bottom of the cabinet too. The top is trickier in that you may see the holes. I usually don't touch the top, but I make sure the heat can easily escape out the back.
in addition to keeping things cool, keeping things less humid also helps. Consumer electronic components are by and large water proof, but they're not hermetically sealed. Water can slowly diffuse through the coatings and lead to corrosion. Higher temps and higher humidity speeds up the process.

There is an easy solution to that. Place some desiccant in cup and stick it somewhere no one will see it. Local humidity issues will be solved.
post #76 of 111
Quote:
Hi Def Fan...You think this thread is bad... this thread is nothing. How about ya read thru an Emotiva thread

I never said the entire thread in and of itself is bad. In fact I said it's served a purpose allowing people to glean detailed experiences pro and con regarding certain brands and models. If anything I've defended the thread's original purpose and detailed why it's useful. The only thing bad that's happened really is a handful of cry wolf posts claiming that unfair and untrustworthy testimonials are skewing public opinion, along with some smack talk when such claims are responded to, and the invariable 2nd responder gets the warning treatment.
post #77 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Pioneer is 4th overall, however in AVRs >$899 (SRP) Elite is 3rd.
Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

Completely agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi santora, thanks for your call. Well, actually I'm basically a fan of Audyssey. When I did my homework a couple of years ago looking for "which AVR to buy" I though digital room correction was a key issue for me worthwhile to be looked at in details, so after studying YPAO, MCACC and Audyssey, I found the first two are practically doing nothing for EQ'ing the bass department, while Audyssey is putting resources down there where its most needed. Then came the availability of AVRs with Audyssey, so I had to look into the case again and decide among Onkyo, Integra, Denon or Marantz. Owing to a kinda personal preference I finally went for the look and appearance of Denon. wink.gif
On another note, I think we need to agree that reliability is not a tangible item, not something we can buy and pay for (even if we'd like to, eh?). We can't pay double for a unit that has double reliability, coz there's no such thing in the world. Deciding on features we'd like to have are the only tangible items we can look into at the level of technology as of today.
Wish you good luck with your on-going project. smile.gif

Ummm... actually we can. Its called a WARRANTY and an EXTENDED WARRANTY... and INSURANCE. Its all part of the customer service process if done properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

I would stay away from Onkyo then.

Oh God... At it again huh? I could give you countless number of people and their reviews of Onkyo's working just fine and never having an issue, myself included.

Would I personally buy their 2012 models (515, 616,717,818...)? No, not so much. They have had wayyyyy more issues than most other years but they are also doing a good job of making it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Let's not get carried away with dismissing this or that post here. The OP has his own opinion based on his experience. That is all. All other opinions are welcome and that is all they are as well. Posting marketing survey or official failure thread numbers is also akin to current election polls due to the many variables. Consider this:
Unit O has a large instance of complaints from users in a forum due to either feature set or unit failure.
Unit D has a lot less of that.
Unit Y and P find themselves with even less.
Unit O sells 10x the number of units than all others combined because it offers more features and performance for the money. (Just an example and I am not going to argue that because the point is volume). Just due to the way things are there will be more failures reported from the higher volume unit than the lower ones.

Your recap of forum use and this threads viability aside, the above portion of your post was RIGHT ON!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methadras View Post

How does the 515 compare in terms of quality to the 818? I see isolated issues and there is an issued with gapless playback, but beyond that mine is a champ.

They both have HDMI board manufacturing issues... I love all 5 of my Onkyo's that are still currently in use and loved the previous 4 as well but this years models were some of the worst I have seen over 20 years of owning Onkyo. Their next line (most likely 2013) will be some of the best they have made in years because they will have FINALLY worked out the HDMI v1.4 issues... hopefully. Lol.
post #78 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten8yp View Post

Oh God... At it again huh? I could give you countless number of people and their reviews of Onkyo's working just fine and never having an issue, myself included.
Would I personally buy their 2012 models (515, 616,717,818...)? No, not so much. They have had wayyyyy more issues than most other years but they are also doing a good job of making it right.
.

Excuse me? I'm sorry if my experiences with defective Onkyo products offends you. I was giving the OP my experiences with Onkyo, since the op is looking at buying a receiver that won't break down. I was responding to op's comments about the HDMI board issue which he has stated he does not want to have happen again. Let's face facts. Onkyo has HDMI board issues, at least with xxx7/xxx8 lines. I bought my first Onkyo 5008, it didn't function out of the box. Aka, bad HDMI board right out of the box. I was figuring, sure maybe it was just the bad doa people will get from time to time. So I get another one and it worked till this recent problem, in which it is in for service, which they suspect is a bad HDMI board. Now I have worked in retail for many years and I have dealt with returns for defective items. You start knowing when a certain brand is having issues. Now, when I went to the service center and they tell you there have been a lot of Onkyo issues recently and mind you the SAME issues with xxx7/xxx8. I figure I would take the word of the service center who has been repairing audio/video for 40 years and service Onkyo for 40 states. I figure when they tell me that the last couple of years Onkyo has been having some quality issues, they probably know what they are talking about. Now maybe those people who are happy and haven't had any issues that you "know" just haven't put enough hours on their receiver to have the issues. You even acknowledge yourself that you wouldn't want the 2012 models which would make at least 3 years of Onkyo models as "No, not so much." And this "good job of making it right.", it is called the warranty and it is expected. Fact is, the OP should be aware of what is going on with Onkyos. Onkyos are NOT the most reliable receiver manufacturer at the moment. So please think before you quote another member with "Oh God... At it again huh?" and then go ahead and prove my point that the last few years of Onkyos have been poor quality.
post #79 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

Excuse me? I'm sorry if my experiences with defective Onkyo products offends you. I was giving the OP my experiences with Onkyo, since the op is looking at buying a receiver that won't break down. I was responding to op's comments about the HDMI board issue which he has stated he does not want to have happen again. Let's face facts. Onkyo has HDMI board issues, at least with xxx7/xxx8 lines. I bought my first Onkyo 5008, it didn't function out of the box. Aka, bad HDMI board right out of the box. I was figuring, sure maybe it was just the bad doa people will get from time to time. So I get another one and it worked till this recent problem, in which it is in for service, which they suspect is a bad HDMI board. Now I have worked in retail for many years and I have dealt with returns for defective items. You start knowing when a certain brand is having issues. Now, when I went to the service center and they tell you there have been a lot of Onkyo issues recently and mind you the SAME issues with xxx7/xxx8. I figure I would take the word of the service center who has been repairing audio/video for 40 years and service Onkyo for 40 states. I figure when they tell me that the last couple of years Onkyo has been having some quality issues, they probably know what they are talking about. Now maybe those people who are happy and haven't had any issues that you "know" just haven't put enough hours on their receiver to have the issues. You even acknowledge yourself that you wouldn't want the 2012 models which would make at least 3 years of Onkyo models as "No, not so much." And this "good job of making it right.", it is called the warranty and it is expected. Fact is, the OP should be aware of what is going on with Onkyos. Onkyos are NOT the most reliable receiver manufacturer at the moment. So please think before you quote another member with "Oh God... At it again huh?" and then go ahead and prove my point that the last few years of Onkyos have been poor quality.

My post was directed at your tone... you said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

I would stay away from Onkyo then.

Thats it... no explanation or anything. The fact is people have been all over the Onkyo threads doing the same thing and we are TIRED of people beating a dead horse. In this thread, we are POSITIVELY REFERRING receivers, not specifically down-talking brands (other than Denon)... so if you have a brand that he SHOULD use feel free to share. Otherwise keep your opinion of Onkyo to yourself. No one cares. We've heard it 1000 times.

Personally, yes I was offended by your post (and all others that slander Onkyo.) If you want to hear my REAL opinion I think its broad-spectrum fraud by all the other Onkyo haters that like to pay more money for less product. They are either fanboys just out to discredit the name of a good receiver company OR they are actually paid by those companies to give negative reviews and/or damn Onkyo's name. I, for one, have seen maybe two othree peoples ACTUAL PICS of their issues. Lots of people SAY they have them but there is never any proof....I know I know. Its a HUGE conspiracy. But the fact is I personally own an xx7 model and an xx9 model NEITHER of which have had any issues and I use BOTH of them for hours each day. In addition, I've owned Onkyo for 20 years and never had any serious issues out of any of the products I have owned. And for almost every horror story you can tell me about an Onkyo experience, I can tell you one by someone I know with a Denon, Marantz, Sony issue. Regardless, talking negatively about any receiver company other than Denon in this thread is pointless and counter-productive. Thats all I'm going to say about that.
post #80 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten8yp View Post

My post was directed at your tone... you said...
Thats it... no explanation or anything. The fact is people have been all over the Onkyo threads doing the same thing and we are TIRED of people beating a dead horse. In this thread, we are POSITIVELY REFERRING receivers, not specifically down-talking brands (other than Denon)... so if you have a brand that he SHOULD use feel free to share. Otherwise keep your opinion of Onkyo to yourself. No one cares. We've heard it 1000 times.
Personally, yes I was offended by your post (and all others that slander Onkyo.) If you want to hear my REAL opinion I think its broad-spectrum fraud by all the other Onkyo haters that like to pay more money for less product. They are either fanboys just out to discredit the name of a good receiver company OR they are actually paid by those companies to give negative reviews and/or damn Onkyo's name. I, for one, have seen maybe two othree peoples ACTUAL PICS of their issues. Lots of people SAY they have them but there is never any proof....I know I know. Its a HUGE conspiracy. But the fact is I personally own an xx7 model and an xx9 model NEITHER of which have had any issues and I use BOTH of them for hours each day. In addition, I've owned Onkyo for 20 years and never had any serious issues out of any of the products I have owned. And for almost every horror story you can tell me about an Onkyo experience, I can tell you one by someone I know with a Denon, Marantz, Sony issue. Regardless, talking negatively about any receiver company other than Denon in this thread is pointless and counter-productive. Thats all I'm going to say about that.

WOW!! Anyone with an Onkyo problem is "either fanboys just out to discredit the name of a good receiver company OR they are actually paid by those companies to give negative reviews and/or damn Onkyo's name." I really don't know what to say to that level of ignorance. I find it funny you say "POSITIVELY REFERRING receivers, not specifically down-talking brands (other than Denon)" and in the same sentence down talk another brand lol. It sure sounds like you are a fanboy who is paid by Onkyo. I think in response to your " so if you have a brand that he SHOULD use feel free to share. Otherwise keep your opinion of Onkyo to yourself. No one cares. We've heard it 1000 times." I cannot recommend a receiver he should get, only the one he should not get. And I suspect that the person who may care, is the OP who stated they doesn't want to have HDMI issues, like the Onkyos have currently. I can say that no one should be taking your recommendations based on that post. As your love of Onkyo blinds you to reality and is not an objective opinion.

It is so funny when people talk about receivers on forums. When people say something bad about the receiver that another person owns, that person must defend the honor of that receiver, acting like you called their wife a slut or something. To the OP, I can give you my service number for my receiver and you can verify my service for my 5008 yourself. My only advice is based on my experience, I got two 5008 (supposed flagship model) that both had HDMI board issues. I cannot state about the new models, as only time will tell, but given the history, I would use caution in selecting Onkyo products as that is what I owned.
post #81 of 111
I have had three Pioneer receivers (VSX-819, Elite VSX-21TXH, and currently a VSX-521 in a secondary setup) and I have had good luck with all of them. The Elite in particular was an excellent performer, built like a tank, never really had any issues with it. MCACC is good but seems a bit outdated, and the GUI was poor (this was a 2009 model, though). All in all they make really solid receivers. I recently replaced the Elite with a Marantz SR5006. Although the Marantz sounds better to me (biggest difference was with the MultEQ XT - my sub sounded way better than with the Pioneer), it does not seem to be built quite as well, and also ran hotter with my previous 8-ohm speakers, and runs extremely hot with my new 6-ohm speakers.

Overall, I'd say Yamaha is definitely the most reliable AVR brand. Their Aventage line sounds great and is built great. Never really hear about any issues wit h them.
post #82 of 111
Onkyo's HDMI problems go back at least 5 years. Based on everything I've read, Onkyo's aren't as reliable as competing brands. You get a lot of features for the $$$, but the tradeoff is you're more likely to have issues. Their HDMI board issues are so widespread, that I would conclude their HDMI boards are defective. I don't think they've been proactive enough in adressing the issues. They may have made design changes in an attempt to fix the problem, but I don't think they've really put in the effort to insure the problems have been addressed.

I've owned a few Yamaha receivers over they years. They've all been built like tanks. They all still work. Too bad they've stuck to YPAO.
post #83 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

You get a lot of features for the $$$, but the tradeoff is you're more likely to have issues.

Actually in some respects they aren't even competing with Denon on features with their latest models. You have to step up to an $850 unit to get any kind of calibration, and then it's MultEQ XT. Where are the MultEQ offerings they used to have at lower price points?

I also find it odd someone would call those pointing out Onkyo's poor reliability record and their own success with Yamaha and Pionner "fanboys". If ever there were fanboys it's those in denial of valid complaints and praise. At least they mention TWO reliable brands, vs vehemently defending ONE brand when people merely mention what they've experienced or read.

So yeah, the word fanboy gets tossed around a lot, but sometimes it sticks more to the ones using it than the ones they're accusing.
Edited by Hi Def Fan - 10/4/12 at 3:19pm
post #84 of 111
funny you say "valid" when there is RARELY any proof... only internet reviews and forum posts with words only

-because if you read it online it MUST be true...

Bon jour!
post #85 of 111
I guess it boils down to denial. There are some people who believe the Earth is flat no matter what you say them. Now even though I have never been up in a spaceship, and I read it on the internet, I believe the Earth is round. It is good to post on these sites when looking for opinions on a new receiver. Any intelligent person would be able to take a look at a thread and should weigh each posters opinions accordingly. The opinions I have after reading this and other audio video sites are:
Onkyos have great features, feel solid material wise and sound great when they work,
Denons sound great, have had some NIC card issues, starting to offer more features at lower cost but feel cheap
Yamaha are very reliable but lack the room correction that a lot of people want.
post #86 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

I guess it boils down to denial. There are some people who believe the Earth is flat no matter what you say them. Now even though I have never been up in a spaceship, and I read it on the internet, I believe the Earth is round. It is good to post on these sites when looking for opinions on a new receiver. Any intelligent person would be able to take a look at a thread and should weigh each posters opinions accordingly. The opinions I have after reading this and other audio video sites are:
Onkyos have great features, feel solid material wise and sound great when they work,
Denons sound great, have had some NIC card issues, starting to offer more features at lower cost but feel cheap
Yamaha are very reliable but lack the room correction that a lot of people want.


A couple of additional points.
1. The price competition of AVRs is very intense, which has driven selling prices down
2. Due to the significant depreciation of the US$ vs. other currencies, more $ are required to up the AVR build quality
3. Be advised that many reported AVR failures (regardless of brand) are due to lack of inadequate ventilation and improper installation


Just my $0.02... wink.gif
post #87 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Cynicism is often an early sign of senility. Never mind the fact that there is a lot of consistency regarding complaints of parts overheating and burning out in both Denon and Onkyo AVRs (more so previous models regarding Onkyo), you're basically calling those that mention such problems liars merely for not showing you their repair bills? I suppose those having no such problems with their Yamahas and Pioneers are also liars? Then I guess we can also call all those insisting they've had no problems with their Denons and Onkyos liars as well, because they lack proof?
You see what I'm getting at? It's rather preposterous to imply there's a mass conspiracy theory just because there's lots of praise for Yamahas and Pioneers and complaints about Denons and Onkyos regarding reliability. You can run around acting like the sky is falling when people honestly give their personal testimonials, but it only makes you look unstable.
Is there a lot of exaggerations and silliness on the net, of course. There's also a lot of people that use the more trustworthy sources on the net to share their experiences, because all they're looking for at the end of the day is a brand that won't let them down after spending their hard earned money on an AVR.
Funny you should mention the net being an untrustworthy source of info as a blanket statement, because here you are using it yourself. It also reminds me of an unpleasant conversation I had with a cocky neighbor that just moved in whom likes to brag about his political science degree and imply anyone that uses the net is misinformed.
The topic involved the common claim of the Bush administration concocting a WMD/genocide story as an excuse to invade Iraq. When I mentioned that they actually recently FOUND evidence of Hussein nearly wiping out an entire race of people at that time (Marsh Arabs), he was oblivious to it. Granted a giant canal to divert a civilization's fresh water is not a conventional WMD, but a WMD just the same.
The best part was he eventually left the room admitting he didn't know anything about it. At least some aren't in total denial.

So let me get this straight? First I'm cynical and then I'm on the way to being senile? oh... ok. rolleyes.gif You're the one who sounds like you've already drank the kool-aid buddy. Hows the blue pill working out for you?

Back to the topic so I dont say something I would regret too...

You misunderstand the points I was trying to make AND my true intention of forum participation. I was dead serious.

My point was that you cant believe everything you read online. The internet and the information posted on it (for the most part) is NOT policed. So companies with unGodly amounts of money can write, post and do things online in order to skew reality and chalk it up as a form of marketing. It happens. Believe it. I dont know you or anything about you but assuming you aren't as naive as most people, it should make sense. There-in lies the REAL issue (large corporate companies and what they do with their money) but thats a sub-topic I dont wish to discuss at this point.

The intention of use of the internet (or internet forums) FOR ME is broken down into two aspects... Enjoyment and Economic Resource. I participate in this forum (and about 4 others like it) to make new friends (few and far between because of the amount of trolls on them) and to find deals on products that I might potentially be interested in purchasing. NOT to believe every review I've ever read and use said reviews to weigh heavily on expensive purchasing decisions. Anyone who does is foolish. Not that there isn't something to be said for research but reading forum posts is HARDLY real research. Yes, I read reviews. Some I hold in higher standing than others based on who it comes from. But it is VERY easy (for me atleast) to see right through the false ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

A couple of additional points.
1. The price competition of AVRs is very intense, which has driven selling prices down
2. Due to the significant depreciation of the US$ vs. other currencies, more $ are required to up the AVR build quality
3. Be advised that many reported AVR failures (regardless of brand) are due to lack of inadequate ventilation and improper installation
Just my $0.02... wink.gif

Thanks for further solidifying my point :tup:
post #88 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

I don't think painting a broad brush is valid: whether a product is made in one country or another: Apple seems to know how to get it done properly, just as an example

Didn't Apple have its production employees committing suicide in droves?
Edited by cybrsage - 10/7/12 at 2:01pm
post #89 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

in addition to keeping things cool, keeping things less humid also helps. Consumer electronic components are by and large water proof, but they're not hermetically sealed. Water can slowly diffuse through the coatings and lead to corrosion. Higher temps and higher humidity speeds up the process.

Dang, that is a lot of humitidy to actually have water running down inside your equipment. Maybe if you live around the gulf coast...

Interestinly enough, many circuit board factories run humidifiers in their shop to keep humidity up, less change of static discharges that way.
post #90 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

The opinions I have after reading this and other audio video sites are:
Onkyos have great features, feel solid material wise and sound great when they work,
Denons sound great, have had some NIC card issues, starting to offer more features at lower cost but feel cheap
Yamaha are very reliable but lack the room correction that a lot of people want.

I agree, and you can add Pioneer in the same sentence as Yamaha. My Denon 3808 was amazing but the CPU board died two months after the warranty ended. My current Onkyo 3010 is amazing, very sturdy feeling, heavy, and not hot at all (was worried due to the space heaters they previously built).
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