Stereo Integrity's new HT Subwoofer - Page 5

Ricci likely put more effort into measuring the Dayton because it's up for buy.

This crap takes time. Even just running a nearfield. Dragging the equipment out is a pain. Thanksgiving for you guys down there and all. Probably just pacing himself. I probably wouldn't want to post a nearfield to "prove" my suspicion of actual T/S performance anyways. The best bet is for him to give the real data.

"I'm just trying to get more information so I can figure out what whether the driver is a steal year or just an also ran."

the normalized inductance (le/re) is...not so good. the impedance swing is pretty steep. there is no linear tech in the motor such as lms. maybe it has a place, but i doubt it will be the steal of the year.

Stereodude what in the hell are you talking about? I never contradicted my measurements and actually the 3 sets of data from SI, myself and Klippel all agree very well. LE at 1khz by itself means about jack for subwoofers. LIMP reports the 3 part inductance differently when it calculates inside the program from when it exports the data. The latter is accurate the former produces differing inductance data. I already went through this before. Even Unibox is not bang on when it comes to matching the simulation to the real results. If you want to know how the driver performs in box figure out how to look at the impedance curve and specs and get an idea or wait for the measurements which will happen but have not yet.

Tuxedocivic nails all of it in his last post.

I see we need a recap. Here is a comparison of the T/S parameters posted by SI and DB.



You consider that agreeing very well?

You went on to say: That's not a statement that you think the predicted response from the T/S parameters you measured, and Nick posted, isn't accurate?

I still stand by my statements that we don't know whether the in box response will be dominated by inductance or not. We're not going to know until someone puts one in a box and measures it.

Did you really mean to say that the exported data (that was posted?) is correct and the inductance inside the program is not?

Edit: correct typo
Edited by Stereodude - 11/24/12 at 7:11am

The posted models are pretty much useless, IMO, FWIW, YDWYW...

I made a sucker's bet in Gorilla's thread and won and it went ignored.

Here are the posted models of the Dayton, based on the T/S parameters vs the actual response measured by Josh. There is also confirmation that it takes 4 of the Daytom 18 HOs to match a single UXL for displacement and that's using a $6,000 amp on a 230V-50A line:



Another posted model showed a pair of the Daytons besting a single UXL, which baffles me actually, but of course didn't pan out. It seems people like more drivers just because it's more drivers... dunno.

I'm with 'dude here. We didn't need to wait for Josh to post his complete results. Should've been nothing to post a close mic of the driver in a recommended box. I predicted a high Q response (and still do) against the models which Scott said would yield a .65 Q. The Dayton models made the same predictions which didn't pan out in reality either. A close mic is all that's needed and the maximum stuff and differences by box volume change from there can be predicted fairly closely.

Posting from my phone.

Yes we do need a recap apparently. I still don't know what you are going on about. You are basically trying to prove points that I made myself earlier using those posts that make them. Ok...??? I'm not disagreeing with or changing my stance on any of what I said previously. Not sure where that impression is coming from.

Again yes i think all of the data lines up nicely.You are comparing 2 different types of LE data which is apples oranges. That's not a fair comparison. SI didn't give 3 part inductance. This is like comparing simulated vs measured data. Not really comparable. This is like completely missing 2 major parameters from one of the data sets. Compare them on an equal footing with just 1khz LE.

The measured data is good. The simulations are ballpark at best even with the best data. Many times they are way off especially if using something like winisd. I've been saying this for years.

I already mentioned that the inductance roll off will be exaggerated in unibox and that a real measurement is needed back when Scott posted his sims because everyone started jumping on the bash wagon. That was the entire point of those posts...measurements are needed to know for sure with anything and this is no exception. Everyone seems to agree on this so again not sure where the disagreement is?

If I get a chance I will give an example of the different data from the same measurements reported by LIMP depending on how it is viewed.
Edited by Ricci - 11/24/12 at 8:20am

Dave I don't think you won that bet at all. We can debate that back in the other thread if you want. I don't think this is the place for it.

There doesn't seem to be a place for it anywhere these days.

I said a pair of UXL beats 4 Daytons. I don't see how you could argue against that given the data. It's a no-brainer on paper and confirmed by your results.

I still don't know how you can possibly not understand the "issue" by this point. I'll try one last time...

SI is selling a driver via pre-order. It might be a great deal and it might be a ho-hum driver. Are these drivers worth buying or not? Are the people pre-ordering them going to be pissed when they find an in box response dominated by inductance or are they going to be happy with the great deal they got on a solid driver? There's conflicting information as to which it is and no apparent resolution in sight until someone measures one in a box.

Would you guys agree that the LMS-U performs similarly to the UXL-18?

I'm planning on bringing my pair to test against tge quad HO's here in a few weeks.

I don't believe any 2 subs can be compared unless they are carefully matched in level and FR at the LP and relative to the mains and the same signal shaping hardware and amplifier should be used. If the 2 subs are run naked and if the LMS-Us are underpowered, etc., and it becomes a 'which sub is louder' deal, then I have no idea what the outcome will be.

The basic answer is yes.

"There doesn't seem to be a place for it anywhere these days."

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435795/first-diy-project-for-a-guy-looking-to-upgrade-multiple-sealed-18s/390#post_22620177

I see no conflicting information. Just someone who wants the answer to a question that is not yet answered. You want to see a response curve I get it. So do a lot of others. It is not available yet. I will get to it when I can. I ran out of time and did not get to it last outing. I figured it could go last just in case I didnt get to everything I wanted that day because it is not in stock yet. That makes sense to me. I dont know how much more clear I can be about it.

How many sub drivers out of whats on the market do we actually have this type of information for anyway ? Maybe 1%? Virtually nil outside of pro audio drivers. If the response shape is a big determining factor for you then you have to wait until someone provides it. Or you buy one and investigate yourself. This is the same gamble you take when buying that other 99% of the drivers unless someone else whether manufacturer or an individual has done some work and provided the info for you.

My sims bring nothing but darkness and hate to this forum.

Ok, I should have what I need to perform amp surgery on my Clone tonight. Two LMS-U's with a fully functioning Clone vs Gorilla's pair of dual opposed Dayton HO's in the same listening environment should provide some objective clarity, correct?

After talking with Gorilla about how we were going to approach this comparison, we are going to follow the same primise as his last GTG by level matching each sub, but taking it a step further and eqing each sub as flat as possible. If I can get my Clone repaired, we will be utilizing the same amp to remove the subjectivity from that regard.

Bosso, do you see any other aspect of this scenario that we need to focus on to ensure an even playing field?

Just wish we could get ahold of the SI drivers to throw in the mix! I'm assuming Nick be reached directly through the SI website, correct?

Scott's sims... Destroyer of businesses and wrecker of homes everywhere...

Very interested in these drivers, but confused by your post re: the Dayton drivers vs Bosso's graph. I'm assuming you arrived at your +6 dbs by doubling drivers (+3) and power (+3). That was always my rudimentary understanding of things from back in my car audio days. How is it that you arrive with 2 best the UXL but Bosso shows it takes 4 to best it?

"Very interested in these drivers, but confused by your post re: the Dayton drivers vs Bosso's graph. I'm assuming you arrived at your +6 dbs by doubling drivers (+3) and power (+3). That was always my rudimentary understanding of things from back in my car audio days. How is it that you arrive with 2 best the UXL but Bosso shows it takes 4 to best it?"

he is only showing 3db for doubling of drivers, which is what you get if you are looking at sensitivity.

when looking at max performance, which was the bet, you have to use the same power on the second dayton as you did on the first in order to reach its limits, so +6db.

josh has monster amps for his tests, so neither the ricci bet nor the bosso bet would be amp limited. the results are based on the drivers.

actually, their sensitivity at 20hz in a 4 cubic foot enclosure is the same, so for a given spl, the dayton rig with 2 drives would only require 1/2 the power.
Edited by LTD02 - 11/24/12 at 7:11pm

This ^^^ is gibberish. 2 UXL-18s will best 4-Dayton 18s... period. Subwoofers are about displacement and the UXL has more than double the displacement of the Dayton. The test results verify that.

you lost the bet.

Take it to PM please, for everyone elses sake...

no worries jim, we are all big boys here.

lots of folks are interested in the comparo that led to the ricci v. bosso bet.

the dayton is pretty under-rated on the official spec sheet. that is what caused the upset.

when the other subs get measured, they will be discussed and compared all around.

not sure what the red card is all about.

Especially to those with small commercial units. You heartless bastard!

Bosso,

Why did you delete most of your posts in this thread created prior to 10/19 ?

In soccer that's for an ejection, so I was tossing all of ya out.

Meh, looks like a moot point to me. For what ive seen so far i wouldnt want either the UXL or the SI since the Dayton 18" gives you about the same, just with better midbass (4x daytons vs 4 SI vs 2 UXL)
Edited by eXa - 11/26/12 at 5:07pm

This driver is one that was measured in a sealed enclosure today. Should have the data up on DB in a few days.

Anybody want to speculate on how it did?

well its either gonna be awesome or crap

im gonna go with awesome

Now that's just plain mean!