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HELP: Need To Find 32" HDTV With Least Amount Of Input Lag As Possible

post #1 of 39
9/21/12 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 
With my pre-ordered Nintendo Wii-U console arriving this November, I think its time to pull the plug on my old Panasonic 20" CRT from 1999. As most of you know, the Nintendo Wii-U is a very powerful HD console, and it comes with HDMI cable only, which I would like to use to its fullest advantage.......BUT.........

So, to put it simply, its 2012 and hopefully by now, there are some HDTV's out there that have less than 1 frame of lag (preferably a half a frame (8ms) or less). But after doing alot of research on Shoryuken, Hardforum, Avsforum, etc, I've come to realize that finding the perfect HDTV with little or no input lag is next to impossible if you shop blindly, and still very difficult if you shop wisely.

So, that's why I'm here, asking for you wise individuals to point me to a 32" HDTV (for my bedroom) with little or no Input lag (hopefully not impossible). My wishlist for this 32" HDTV is as follows.......

1. Less than 16ms of lag (preferably 8ms or less). This is the most important thing for me (gameplay over graphics, remember!)
2. If possible, a picture that comes as close as possible to that beautiful "warm glow" of a CRT.
3. If possible, LED over standard LCD (colors closer to a CRT I heard?).


If what I'm asking is impossible, then I don't mind playing my Wii-U on my CRT. While it may be impossible to read some small text and to get rid of forced black bars (16:9), its not going to keep me from enjoying the games. It just means that I'll have to wait until OLED arrives in affordable form (and that's only IF input lag is finally dead and gone).

Well, thanks in advance. Look forward to hearing your answers!

P.S. I've looked at this ---> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0071O4ETQ/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER -- and have considered it, simply because Samsung seems to always have the best picture of all HDTV's on the market. BUT, I know nothing of its Input Lag (although its predecessor had 16ms of lag, so I don't see why this one would be any worse)....so again, that's why I'm here. Oh, and I'm from the US, so only USA TV's will be considered. smile.gif
Edited by nintygaming - 9/30/12 at 12:19pm
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post #2 of 39
9/22/12 at 11:56am
well what your looking for is not impossible to find but if your requirement are that tight you would probably be best served looking into PC monitors that are 1920 x 1080 native and have low input lag, i've never seen an HDTV with less than 1 frame of actual lag. if you want to try an HDTV i would start with middle of the line panasonic 32" or 37" sets with the IPS Alpha panel in them as i have been recommending to others in my lag thread. my 37" S1 from 09 has about 1 frame of lag, most HDTV's have 2-3 frames of lag.
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post #3 of 39
9/22/12 at 1:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

well what your looking for is not impossible to find but if your requirement are that tight you would probably be best served looking into PC monitors that are 1920 x 1080 native and have low input lag, i've never seen an HDTV with less than 1 frame of actual lag. if you want to try an HDTV i would start with middle of the line panasonic 32" or 37" sets with the IPS Alpha panel in them as i have been recommending to others in my lag thread. my 37" S1 from 09 has about 1 frame of lag, most HDTV's have 2-3 frames of lag.


Well, I don't mind using my CRT for the upcoming Wii-U, but reading text and forced 16:9 will hamper things. Even with the far less powerful Wii, games like Xenoblade and Rayman Origins have been a pain to read text. The text is so razer thin and tiny that at times, I would have to just "guess" what it said. Other times I would set my Wii to 16:9 mode, which would stretch the game and remove the black bars on top and bottom, which did help reading the text, but it didn't make it perfect.

I hope I don't have to wait until OLED arrives in affordable form. (and that's providing that lag is almost non-existent with OLED)
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post #4 of 39
9/22/12 at 3:21pm
Thread Starter 
I just wanted to say that while Samsung HDTV's probably have the best picture quality (maybe I'm wrong on this), the TV that I need doesn't HAVE to be Samsung brand, it can be Sony, Panasonic, etc.

Just remember this TV will be mostly used for gaming. And I can squeeze in a 32" if required in order to get less than 1 frame of lag. More help needed.
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post #5 of 39
9/22/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

I just wanted to say that while Samsung HDTV's probably have the best picture quality (maybe I'm wrong on this), the TV that I need doesn't HAVE to be Samsung brand, it can be Sony, Panasonic, etc.
Just remember this TV will be mostly used for gaming. And I can squeeze in a 32" if required in order to get less than 1 frame of lag. More help needed.

I don''t think any LED/LCD Samsung TVs this year have less than 2-3 frames of lag (see example here of Samsung EH5000)
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post #6 of 39
9/22/12 at 4:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I don''t think any LED/LCD Samsung TVs this year have less than 2-3 frames of lag (see example here of Samsung EH5000)

Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't most of the TV measurements in the link you posted from people using the stopwatch timer? From what I understand, this method has varying frame rates, thus resulting in "lag spikes," which greatly increase the "average," result.

From what I understand, there are HDTTV's without input lag. However, its my understanding that the problem is that most people are using dated methods to test them so we end up with these high values which leads people into thinking all TV's have medium-high input lag. This article explains the different testing methods ---> http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/input_lag.htm

So from what I gather, lag should be measured using SMT Tool 2.0 or an oscilloscope, other wise there is no point correct? Objective measurements from an experienced CRT & LCD user is more valid.

I think that PRAD.de uses an oscilloscope to measure input lag and I read that the reviews from Nielo Gan from hdtvtest.co.uk have input lag measurements obtained using the SMT tool.

To put it simply, someone surely must have info that could be helpful to me. If a 32" HDTV with less than 1 frame of lag does not exist, then I'm stuck with CRT until the "alleged" lag-free OLED arrives in affordable fashion. (I'm sorry if I sound extreme, but precision gameplay is very important to me. I grew up playing fast-twitch NES/SNES games and I cannot stand playing these games with lag...it just breaks the "on-a-dime" experience that I love so much).
Edited by nintygaming - 9/30/12 at 12:20pm
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post #7 of 39
9/22/12 at 8:48pm
i've tested more TV's than anyone here on this forums i would wager, i've used every test method out there except the oscilloscope method. using a web based timer program is not very accurate if you look at single results but if you do enough tests and average the results they will become more accurate. until SMTT i used to run multiple timers at one time so i could get more results per photo taken to speed things up. SMTT 2.0 is the best way to get a result because when its done correctly (a camera with an adjustable shutter speed is used at is set to a high enough shutter speed, a CRT or an LCD PC monitor with a known lag figure is used) will net you a consistently reliable result unlike all other methods because of how it works.

now as for the no lag thing and HDTV's its impossible. no and i mean no digital display will EVER be lag free, heck CRT displays are not even lag free but they are as close to lag free as you can get because they are purely analog displays so signal does not need to be delayed for any reason and between the electron gun used to excite the phosphors and the phosphors extremely fast decay rates measured in less than milliseconds often the only delay they have is extremely small. digital displays are much less flexible than CRT displays and it doesn't matter if its a LCD or a Plasma or OLED display. they all have fixed displays and cannot accept a raw analog signal and display it pretty much natively the signal whether its analog or digital must be converted at some point to something the controller for the display (on LCD's the Timing Controller or TCON for short) can take and then it interprets the signal and converts it to control the actual display. the vast majority of input lag on LCD displays is created at this controller board. because the TV market has been so infatuated with selling folks on ways to make motion look better or smoother or faster on LCD displays in an attempt to overcome another problem they have vs CRT and even Plasma's they have been pushing 120hz and 240 hz jargon on the public to get more money outta everyone and give folks a reason to buy the newest and greatest. (3D sets are the newest gimmick because it makes absolutely no sense to go beyond 120 let alone 240 "hz" ) the major side effect of this is that manufactures are forced to employ RTC to speed up LC response time because aside from TN (Twisted Nematic) displays that have very good native response times they lack in every other area of performance (color reproduction, viewing angles, and real contrast ratios) thus the manufactures have doubled down on two basic types of LC matrices and keep trying to improve on them in the areas they lack. they are IPS (In Plane Switching) and VA (Vertical Alignment) they are basically completely opposite of each other in how they work at the LC level (the orientation is opposite)

all VA panels suffer from poor response times. manufactures have to use RTC to force LC state changes strategically and dynamically depending on the incoming signal. this process requires buffering whole frames for it to work without getting any nasty side effects from the over volting of the LC matrix. what VA offers manufactures that make them very appealing for use in TV's is cost to produce is less than IPS (or used to be, IPS panels even in PC monitors have gone down a lot in price in the past few years) and here is the big one when they are competing with Plasma, black levels and contrast ratio. IPS has one real weak side and its Contrast Ratio/True black levels. VA panels generally are not very good with viewing angles but newer panel designs have made this less of an issue with them but they still wash out a little bit from side to side compared to IPS panels. their fix for the response time problem however cannot be done by modifying the matrix design. it has to use RTC and thus stick some amount of input lag in there and it has to be at least 2 frames of lag and the reasoning for this is very easy to understand once you know how RTC works.

for the reasons above is why you very very rarely see PC monitors made with VA panel types and if you do its a "budget" professional graphics display and not a general use monitor or gaming monitor. most pro graphics panels however are IPS because blacks don't matter that much and accurate color reproduction is king and IPS accels there. input lag and blur are also major concerns with PC monitors much more so than TV's because input lag can be adjusted for in a TV environment with the exception for gaming but even then as rock band type games show as long as its not online multiplayer input lag can be overcome at the software end of the game by adjusting for the delay as well.

the reason you find very few non VA choices in the TV market is because there is not that many panel manufactures.

Sony/Sharp/Samsung have long sense gone all in with VA based panel tech samsung being the major maker and many cheaper and/or makers of sets that do not produce panels themselves use samsung panels or VA panel types from Chinese makers that are not as good as the major 3 makers Chi Mei Optronics and AU Optronics being the main 2

on the IPS side of things for TV panel sizes there literally are only 2 makers LG and Panasonic (IPS Alpha) IPS Alpha panels are superior to LG's panels, they are made in Japan but their limitation on the market has been that they only produce 2 panel sizes and 3 total panel types (32" 720/1080p and a 37" 1080p panel) when Panasonic started that factory in Japan they narrowly looked at their own market in Japan and saw the need for larger than 37" panels not important to them at the time, plus they had their PDP manufacturing for anything larger and is what they have long been pushing for markets out side of Japan like here in the states. i see now they seem to be teaming up with LG much like Vizio did and are now producing larger LCD sets using LG's inferior IPS panels in them (42" and 47" sizes are pretty much guaranteed to be LG panels, afaik they are the only ones who make those odd sizes)

now your going to ask ok, so if IPS is good with input lag, why can't get a Vizio or LG set with an IPS panel? problem with them is they have long been chasing Samsung in the market and have been employing RTC in their IPS sets to compete with the "high frame rate", motion enhancer sets and for whatever reason even though quite a few years ago their 60hz sets used to be low lag they no longer are, probably because its cheaper and easier to produce the same exact panel and controller for all of them and leave the extras the high end sets offer be simple software changes or change of the mainboard slightly adding say a motion enhancer processor and memory and even then that can still be using the same mainboard just with say some chips and components added on to blank spots on the boards for them. i'm speculating here but these are very likely reasons why we see this.

the bottom line imho is this now.

if you have to have less than 2 frames of lag you have 2 choices

#1 buy a 32 or 37" IPS Alpha set that does not have bells and whistles the newer ones with 100/120 hz and even just LED have been shown by some UK sites to have more input lag than older more basic sets like my 37S1, a model that has been tested all over to have at most 1 frame of lag and at best around a half a frame. if you feel your gambling doing so you would not be wrong, you are taking a risk. what you should do is test it so we can get real results on the US models because nobody in the states cares in the media about TV lag. I'm making the suggestion based on my experience with many brand sets. they are a safer bet than pretty much everything else out there in LCD TV's and the only thing safer is Panasonic's Plasmas. their PDPs (not other brands mind you) have been very consistent in lag tests over the models and years and they are a tad over 1 frame of lag but under 2 frames pretty much always. I actually recommended one to a buddy for his main gaming set in their living room and they were not disappointed.


#2 if you want to make a safe bet buy a TN PC monitor with HDMI inputs and a native res of 1920 x 1080. you can get sizes up to 27" now and TN monitors have an average of 8ms input lag across all the various models and brands that have been tested over the years. ones that are at the 16ms or high end of the spectrum tend to be IPS panels because they are not marked as gaming displays so its not a huge priority. the fasted LCD ever tested AFAIK is a Dell TN PC monitor and it was at just under 4ms of input lag. according to forums dedicated to street fighter type games the official monitor used in competitions is a Cheap Asus 22" TN panel monitor that has 8ms of input lag and its no problem for those guys and as far as i know they are the most sensitive bunch of gamers out there when it comes to input lag. if you absolutely cannot have 1 frame of lag then PC monitors are the only route that exists besides CRTs
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post #8 of 39
9/22/12 at 9:29pm
heres a site with a lot of good info, much of it dated but is heavy on specifics of LCD workings and panel types.

http://www.personal.kent.edu/~mgu/LCD/pva.htm

if you check the other 2 VA types he has in there ASV (sharp) and MVA (cheaper samsung panels and other chinese makers) all 3 of them talk about the over shooting technique used to bring down VA's terrible pixel response times. what he doesn't get into unfortunately is how that process works and that for it to work without visual errors you can see with your eyes the method cannot just be done all the time to all pixels in the display. the only way to get around those visual problems that over shooting can produce which include inverse ghosting and a unique but temporary image retention problem is to strategically over shoot pixels at varying amounts depending on the amount of state change required for the transition. VA LC matrix's are natively slow at minor transitions also known as grey to grey response but are better at large changes like black to white on/off situations. the only way to pull off a strategic, varied use of over shooting is to buffer frames so the timing controller has time to analyze the incoming frame and compare it to the one its currently holding on the display, the more time it has to do this process the better and faster it can make the LC's change state without visual errors appearing on screen. its basically a trade off of having more input lag for less pixel level lag and this technique does work on the other 2 panel types, they just don't need it as much as VA so its not used as much on them.

I have a older 4:3 Viewsonic TN PC monitor that has "overdrive" from back in the day when PC monitor makers were fighting to produce the lowest response times at the pixel level to get gamers to buy them and that is where these nasty side effects of inverse ghosting and Temp IR first appeared. my Viewsonic does both and the reason is simple, it has an older RTC technique that globally overdrives all the LC's to fix that problem the manufactures started to use buffering of a single frame and strategic RTC and then the PC gaming community then met the nasty input lag monster for the first time and that has resulted in manufactures getting rid of it in favor for improving the already very fast native response of the TN panel type. TN panels can get down to the native area of 2-4ms now and modern IPS panels are generally in the 8-16ms range natively

IPS Alpha panels use IPS-Pro tech as do the best graphics display monitors, its the best tech out there in IPS today.
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post #9 of 39
9/22/12 at 10:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

all VA panels suffer from poor response times.

Sony/Sharp/Samsung have long sense gone all in with VA based panel tech samsung being the major maker and many cheaper and/or makers of sets that do not produce panels themselves use samsung panels or VA panel types from Chinese makers that are not as good as the major 3 makers Chi Mei Optronics and AU Optronics being the main 2

on the IPS side of things for TV panel sizes there literally are only 2 makers LG and Panasonic (IPS Alpha) IPS Alpha panels are superior to LG's panels, they are made in Japan but their limitation on the market has been that they only produce 2 panel sizes and 3 total panel types (32" 720/1080p and a 37" 1080p panel) when Panasonic started that factory in Japan they narrowly looked at their own market in Japan and saw the need for larger than 37" panels not important to them at the time, plus they had their PDP manufacturing for anything larger and is what they have long been pushing for markets out side of Japan like here in the states. i see now they seem to be teaming up with LG much like Vizio did and are now producing larger LCD sets using LG's inferior IPS panels in them (42" and 47" sizes are pretty much guaranteed to be LG panels, afaik they are the only ones who make those odd sizes)

if you have to have less than 2 frames of lag you have 2 choices

#1 buy a 32 or 37" IPS Alpha set that does not have bells and whistles the newer ones with 100/120 hz and even just LED have been shown by some UK sites to have more input lag than older more basic sets like my 37S1, a model that has been tested all over to have at most 1 frame of lag and at best around a half a frame. if you feel your gambling doing so you would not be wrong, you are taking a risk. what you should do is test it so we can get real results on the US models because nobody in the states cares in the media about TV lag. I'm making the suggestion based on my experience with many brand sets. they are a safer bet than pretty much everything else out there in LCD TV's and the only thing safer is Panasonic's Plasmas. their PDPs (not other brands mind you) have been very consistent in lag tests over the models and years and they are a tad over 1 frame of lag but under 2 frames pretty much always. I actually recommended one to a buddy for his main gaming set in their living room and they were not disappointed.

#2 if you want to make a safe bet buy a TN PC monitor with HDMI inputs and a native res of 1920 x 1080. you can get sizes up to 27" now and TN monitors have an average of 8ms input lag across all the various models and brands that have been tested over the years. ones that are at the 16ms or high end of the spectrum tend to be IPS panels because they are not marked as gaming displays so its not a huge priority. the fasted LCD ever tested AFAIK is a Dell TN PC monitor and it was at just under 4ms of input lag. according to forums dedicated to street fighter type games the official monitor used in competitions is a Cheap Asus 22" TN panel monitor that has 8ms of input lag and its no problem for those guys and as far as i know they are the most sensitive bunch of gamers out there when it comes to input lag. if you absolutely cannot have 1 frame of lag then PC monitors are the only route that exists besides CRTs

Ok, based on what you stated....I got some questions. First, let me get the following out of the way.....

I read that the Samsung "Series 5" HDTV's have 1 frame or less of lag (supposedly even less in "PC Mode"). I found a review for what I believe may very well be the 32" Series 5 "UK" version, here ---> http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsu...ge=Calibration --- and it claims to have 16ms of lag (don't know what method they use to measure it, but I bet you do!).

Question #1: If the Samsung US model (UN32EH5000) does indeed have 16ms or less of lag, then does that mean it uses an IPS panel? (and if it does not have less than 1 frame of lag, then please let me know, because its my understanding that Samsung puts out the best picture, and if I can get less than 1 frame of lag AND a gorgeous picture, that would be great).

Question #2: I found a 1080p IPS Panasonic 32" here ---> http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-L32E5-32-Inch-LED-LCD/dp/B00752RACW/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1348376222&sr=8-4&keywords=panasonic+32 -- any info on its input lag?

Question #3: I also found a 720p IPS Panasonic 32" here ---> http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-L32X5-32-Inch-LED-LCD/dp/B00752R89C/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1348376222&sr=8-2&keywords=panasonic+32 -- thoughts on this one as well? (also, there are many more 32" IPS HDTV's listed on Panasonic's site, so many in fact I don't know which one's to show you, so I just listed the two that amazon is selling)

Thank you VERY MUCH for your informative replies. Look forward to your next reply!
Edited by nintygaming - 9/30/12 at 12:22pm
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post #10 of 39
9/22/12 at 10:37pm
Whynot get a used HD CRT? There must be people giving them away... You caneven get HDFury to add HDMI to it! It won't be 1080p but way better than yourold 19". The came in 26" from Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic. Just avoid the 34" - too heavy and too deep to fit in the car!
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post #11 of 39
9/23/12 at 8:15am
browsing the reviews on the 32E5 (and 37E5) on amazon and there are a number of reviews where people have bought them to use as PC monitors for gaming and they do not report any high lag situations so its probably good to go.

i'm surprised that samsung set tested that fast, but not surprised to see that its a 60hz model. that site does do proper input lag tests and they are reputable but as you pointed out they are in the UK so the models they are testing are not the exact same models we have here in the states, models from different regions don't always test the same. all that being said i highly doubt it has an IPS panel in it. it likely has a slower version of the S-PVA's found in the vast majority of Samsung sets.

as far as Picture Quality goes. Samsung sets only outperform most other sets in one area and thats black levels, however they often have screen uniformity issues with black screens as well (though larger panel sizes tend to be worse than smaller ones) with that being said a TV with an IPS Alpha panel will outperform or match a 60hz S-PVA in every other aspect of picture quality and where it will accell is in viewing angles. the IPS Alpha panels have almost no visible change in the displayed image from straight on looking at 90 all the way to 178 degrees. the S-PVA panels are good with viewing angles but you will see changes as you look at them from various angles. native motion resolution of the IPS Alpha should be better than the S-PVA panel, i know mine is better than the set it replaced that had an S-PVA panel in it but it was an older set by todays standards so things could have changed
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post #12 of 39
9/23/12 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post

Whynot get a used HD CRT? There must be people giving them away... You caneven get HDFury to add HDMI to it! It won't be 1080p but way better than yourold 19". The came in 26" from Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic. Just avoid the 34" - too heavy and too deep to fit in the car!

you should check out craigslist sometime, i've seen the 34" Sony sets on there in my area off and on and nobody's giving them away, cheapest i've seen is like 200 for one and i've seen people asking even crazier prices as well, took me by surprise.
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post #13 of 39
9/23/12 at 11:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

you should check out craigslist sometime, i've seen the 34" Sony sets on there in my area off and on and nobody's giving them away, cheapest i've seen is like 200 for one and i've seen people asking even crazier prices as well, took me by surprise.

Agreed. And I doubt that even these HD CRT's would show tiny text as well as a LED. And for some odd reason, most game developers these days are making not only text smaller and smaller, but everything else smaller. I suppose they think that everyone who plays games has a 60" plasma. I couldn't believe how small Donkey Kong was in Donkey Kong Country Returns when the screen would pan, on a Wii no less. And Rayman on Rayman Origins was nearly impossible to see at times. But, thankfully flat panels help alleviate this issue.


EDIT: Dang, I just discovered that the Panasonic has 34ms of input lag. Source ---> http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-tx-l37e5b_TV_review_more-performance-analysis_Page-3

Wow....I'm about to give up. I'm nearly exhausted myself searching on the net for a 16ms or less HDTV. Google (and all other search engines) stink, seeing as how there is more garbage on it than truth. But in the few rare instances when I actually find truth on Google, I'm happy. I'm definitely happy with the info I found above, as its saving me the headache of buying it then returning it.

Well, I guess I'm sticking with the good ol' CRT unless someone can point me to a great HDTV with 1 frame or less of lag.
Edited by nintygaming - 9/30/12 at 12:24pm
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post #14 of 39
9/23/12 at 3:47pm
Thread Starter 
I also learned that IPS and VA panels have little or nothing to do with input lag when it comes to HDTV's, and that the following are the reasons.....


"Why do games lag on HDTVs?

There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.

A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).

B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag)."


Source 1 ----> http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/best-2011-32inch-lcd-no-to-low-input-lag.149227/

Source 2 ----> http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-new-definitive-hdtv-lag-faq.55593/


Its amazing that its 2012 and HDTV's are just as laggy as ever, and in some cases, getting worse due to more and more post processing being added every year.
Edited by nintygaming - 9/30/12 at 12:09pm
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post #15 of 39
9/23/12 at 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

I also learned that IPS and VA panels have little or nothing to do with input lag when it comes to HDTV's, and that the following are the reasons.....
"Why do games lag on HDTVs?
There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.
A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag)."
Source 1 ----> http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/best-2011-32inch-lcd-no-to-low-input-lag.149227/
Source 2 ----> http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-new-definitive-hdtv-lag-faq.55593/
Its amazing that its 2012 and HDTV's are just as laggy as ever, and in some cases, getting worse due to more and more post processing being added every year.

those two causes listed above are true but are avoidable/fixable situations.

you can overcome the first one by feeding the TV its native resolution, in the event you device is not capable there are devices made specifically for stand alone upscaling to native with minimal lag (the forum you linked will have info on such devices)

the second is easily overcome on 95% of current TV's by disabling such features on the TV and/or turning on a game or PC mode on the set.

the only part that is not defeatable is Response Time Compensation aka Overdrive aka Pixel Overshoot, the few sets that are able to reduce or adjust this effect will suffer picture quality degerdations as a result and that is why for the most part is fixed and thus the lag it induces combine with few other factors but mainly the pixel lag after that is the cause for overall lag of an LCD display.

its worth noting as well i think that good graphics hardware like modern PC video cards (gaming grade mid to high end not cheap crap from either Nvidia or AMD/ATI) is very capable of upscaling lower resolutions to a display's native resolution with pretty much zero lag. the GPU's in modern video cards are some of the most powerful processing chips on the face of the planet today. they have been outperforming CPU units for awhile now.
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post #16 of 39
9/28/12 at 1:25pm
I know for a fact, including hands on that
least years LG LK450 1080p 'VA Panel' LCD DOES 16ms/1 frame
'via component'....HDMI raises the lag signicantly which sadly EVERYBODY on this site seemed to only test it on.
using component, It performs AS GOOD as the LD450(which i also previously owned) which everyone
has been praising because of that 1 frame in regards to gaming. 1 frame is fantastic, anything more being 2 frames and up and personally have a problem with.

Don't expect great black levels though, and the typical iherent cruddy motion blur can be annoying.
I personally have never adjusted, for certain genres it's ok, but for anything first or 3rd person related,
or for just 'anything' that moves at a fast pace is quite distracting. XP


But if you MUST get a 2012 LED/LCD, than i'd listen to these guys and check out either the Panasonic X5 or E5.
As for this 'warm glow' you mention, LED/LCD's barely even have a glow...XP it's like this pissy nasty no glow, where
as plasma and CRT HAVE that warm glow that you're talking about. Unless, you're just talking about the color temp(WARM)
in combination with a CRT's typical rich color gamut. One thing is for sure, any LED/LCD will beable to blow the lid of your CRT in terms of brightness levels,
due to the insane back light.

Either way, I'm going for the Panasonic S30 50" Plasma. Would be nice just to have a Panasonic 37" E5 LED on the side though
just for kicks!
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post #17 of 39
10/2/12 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I know for a fact, including hands on that
least years LG LK450 1080p 'VA Panel' LCD DOES 16ms/1 frame
'via component'....HDMI raises the lag signicantly which sadly EVERYBODY on this site seemed to only test it on.
using component, It performs AS GOOD as the LD450(which i also previously owned) which everyone
has been praising because of that 1 frame in regards to gaming. 1 frame is fantastic, anything more being 2 frames and up and personally have a problem with.
Don't expect great black levels though, and the typical iherent cruddy motion blur can be annoying.
I personally have never adjusted, for certain genres it's ok, but for anything first or 3rd person related,
or for just 'anything' that moves at a fast pace is quite distracting. XP
But if you MUST get a 2012 LED/LCD, than i'd listen to these guys and check out either the Panasonic X5 or E5.
As for this 'warm glow' you mention, LED/LCD's barely even have a glow...XP it's like this pissy nasty no glow, where
as plasma and CRT HAVE that warm glow that you're talking about. Unless, you're just talking about the color temp(WARM)
in combination with a CRT's typical rich color gamut. One thing is for sure, any LED/LCD will beable to blow the lid of your CRT in terms of brightness levels,
due to the insane back light.
Either way, I'm going for the Panasonic S30 50" Plasma. Would be nice just to have a Panasonic 37" E5 LED on the side though
just for kicks!

Last years Samsung UA##D500/UE##D5000 (Series 5) also did 16ms/1 frame, in ANY mode, and it was a VA panel. This year's Series 5 (UE##EH5000/UN##EH5000) shouldn't be worse...and I don't know if component cables would make it better or worse.

Other sites claims that the Panasonic IPS panels are doing 2-3 frames. I would play it safe then and stick with Samsung or LG......UNLESS someone can prove that the Panasonic IPS panels are not being tested properly and are actually 16ms...
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post #18 of 39
10/5/12 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

Last years Samsung UA##D500/UE##D5000 (Series 5) also did 16ms/1 frame, in ANY mode, and it was a VA panel. This year's Series 5 (UE##EH5000/UN##EH5000) shouldn't be worse...and I don't know if component cables would make it better or worse.
Other sites claims that the Panasonic IPS panels are doing 2-3 frames. I would play it safe then and stick with Samsung or LG......UNLESS someone can prove that the Panasonic IPS panels are not being tested properly and are actually 16ms...

2-3 frames? Well if that holds true than you can obviously forget about the Panasonics. XP The Panny C3 apperantly is pretty low. But when
you start to dip back into older sets(C3 might be from 2010) you need to realise that typically means weaker black level performance.

Anyways! if i were you then i'd start looking online and hunting down a 32" LGLK450(and ordering
a pair of official Nintendo Wii U component cables, again forget HDMI although it would provide better picture quality, but the extra boost in input lag obviously
isn't worth it!) or the Samsung.

Too bad they're not 2012 models, because you could buy and try and just return the set if you weren't unsatisfied.
Either way THE LGLK450 should definitly be one of your choices. Then again, perhaps this years bottom end
LG 1080p 60hz LCD provides the same 1 frame through component...The problem is, practically everybody tests
through HDMI on this site.

Other than that, I'm curious how the LG stacks up in comparison to the sammy from a PQ standpoint.
For some wierd reason i just want to get a 32" LCD/LED 1ms frame set just to have kickin' around. XP
Also, seeing as you're so used to CRT, just like i was. You may have a tough time adjusting to an LCD/LED's
inherent motion blur and weaker black levels. For me, Motion, Black levels and color come before
any of these shnazzy HD, progressivescan, widescreen, HDMI and whatever else enhancements

I get the feeling you would be much happier with a plasma, but plasma's don't come in 27" or 32"
so you're out of luck.
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post #19 of 39
10/5/12 at 10:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

2-3 frames? Well if that holds true than you can obviously forget about the Panasonics. XP The Panny C3 apperantly is pretty low. But when
you start to dip back into older sets(C3 might be from 2010) you need to realise that typically means weaker black level performance.
Anyways! if i were you then i'd start looking online and hunting down a 32" LGLK450(and ordering
a pair of official Nintendo Wii U component cables, again forget HDMI although it would provide better picture quality, but the extra boost in input lag obviously
isn't worth it!) or the Samsung.
Too bad they're not 2012 models, because you could buy and try and just return the set if you weren't unsatisfied.
Either way THE LGLK450 should definitly be one of your choices. Then again, perhaps this years bottom end
LG 1080p 60hz LCD provides the same 1 frame through component...The problem is, practically everybody tests
through HDMI on this site.
Other than that, I'm curious how the LG stacks up in comparison to the sammy from a PQ standpoint.
For some wierd reason i just want to get a 32" LCD/LED 1ms frame set just to have kickin' around. XP
Also, seeing as you're so used to CRT, just like i was. You may have a tough time adjusting to an LCD/LED's
inherent motion blur and weaker black levels. For me, Motion, Black levels and color come before
any of these shnazzy HD, progressivescan, widescreen, HDMI and whatever else enhancements
I get the feeling you would be much happier with a plasma, but plasma's don't come in 27" or 32"
so you're out of luck.

Here's something you might find interesting........Contractions..

Samsung Series 5 Models -

2011 UE32D5000 (UA32D5000 US Model) - 16ms according to ---> http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue32d5000-ue40d5000-201112121567.htm?page=Performance

BUT, a contradictory report of 40ms according to ---> http://www.trustedreviews.com/samsung-ue32d5000_TV_review_motion-and-contrast-handling_Page-3

Who's Right?


Now, here's another Samsung Series 5, this time from 2012, and it is supposedly 16ms according to ---> http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue40es5500-ue32es5500-201207031898.htm?page=Performance --- are they correct?


And here's 10ms for a 2011 Panasonic ---> http://www.trustedreviews.com/panasonic-viera-tx-l32e3b_TV_review_more-mostly-good-picture-news_Page-3 --- and --- http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/televisions/plasma-and-lcd-tvs/panasonic-tx-l32e3b-958452/review?artc_pg=3 --- Are they correct?


And here's another contradiction. 16ms from one site, and 31ms from another for a 2011 Panasonic 3D TV ---> http://www.avforums.com/review/Panasonic-DT30-TX-L37DT30B-37DT30-32DT30-3D-LED-LCD--Review.html --- and --- http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panasonic-tx-l37dt30b-l37dt30-201107201304.htm

Who's the right one?

I tell you what, with confusing "evidence" like this, I don't know who to believe. I might as well get a used 16:9 Tube HDTV off of craigslist! (but I doubt I'll be able to read tiny text on it from games like Xenoblade or Rayman Origins. Then again, maybe I'm wrong)
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post #20 of 39
10/5/12 at 3:22pm
I wouldn't even go by what HDTV.uk has to say, unless you live in the UK.
Their panels differ from ours according to users on this site, seems like their panels magically produce less input lag, plus
their 2012 panasonic plasma's have fantastic scaling unlike the 1080p NA models which make 480p and 720p material look soft. wtf huh? Another
problem with the sammy's at least with this year and maybe last years is that you have to label HDMI'1' 'PC Input' to get that 1 frame(The 1ms has
only been confirmed by UK reviews, seems completely different for NA models, mixed reactions i guess) BUT when doing this(At least with the Sammy plasma's
which may apply to the LCD's too) little trick you're basically locking out basic picture controls which you have zero control over like COLOR, COLOR temp, Sharpness ect and that to me is an enormous deal breaker.

HDTV.Uk also uses the older method of testing, in comparison to the newer method AVS is doing. It's pretty damn confusing and I don't
know what to believe anymore either. eek! But I DO know what a 1 frame/16ms set feels like and i've had 2 of them, being the
LD450 and LK450(via component. Both 32" and 42") I'm glad i've been reading through this forum for years now, without it i'd be completely screwed on what to
get as far as gaming goes. a massive trial and error party if you will in terms of testing for lag. XP

Anyways! I've decided that i'm going to get a 32" LK450 or the new replacement model for this year which is the new LG PS560 60hz 1080p LCD.
$349 CAD for the 32". I'll probably snag one early next year...But it's going back if it doesn't deliver 1 frame via component. If that's
the case, i'll just replace it with last years 32" LK450. As for you INtense(hehe) situation if you want to make a SAFE choice as far as LCD's go, GET the 32" LG 1080p 60hz LK450 Online and get a set of official Nintendo component cables ready.lol :P
And you'll be set. I sold my 42" to a friend of a friend of mine since i'm getting a 50" S30 plasma as my main display, but again i'd love to have a small LCD for some odd reason
on the side and i'm going with what i 'know' is the best possible option for gaming.

And about getting a 16:9 HDTV CRT >

http://reviews.cnet.com/direct-view-tvs-crt/sony-kd-34xbr960/4505-6481_7-30787600.html
Here's the grand daddy of 16:9 CRT's. The Sony XBR960 34" Widescreen CRT wink.gif

This set will blow the lid off that LG in terms of Motion handeling and Black levels.
But the LG will own it in terms of producing an extremely bright gorgeous picture and super bright whites, which honestly make
games like Kirby's Epic Yarn look magical, plus the LG will produce a cleaner image(Expert Mode especially, due to the natural H & V sharpness controls)
and can be played in a super bright room free of glare. Plus it would take up ALOT less space in comparison to the Sony CRT.If this set can properly resolve 1280x720p(since most wii U games will in fact be 720p) and can do 1 frame of input lag
than i'd defnitly look into this instead seeing as how you're opting for a small sized display. THIS should definilty be another option
other than the LK450. And it would be a much more natural jump since you're retaining that perfect CRT motion and Black levels without
sacrificing anything like you would with LCD. BUT, beware if you were to pick one of these up from Craigs list, the failure rate could be pretty
high. Whoknows really. And then you have possible geomerty problems, but eh it's no real biggie.


Here's a link to the Official KD-34XBR960 AVS Thread > http://www.avsforum.com/t/408146/the-official-kd-34xbr960-thread
Edited by WaveBoy - 10/5/12 at 3:29pm
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post #21 of 39
10/5/12 at 4:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I wouldn't even go by what HDTV.uk has to say, unless you live in the UK.
Their panels differ from ours according to users on this site, seems like their panels magically produce less input lag, plus
their 2012 panasonic plasma's have fantastic scaling unlike the 1080p NA models which make 480p and 720p material look soft. wtf huh? Another
problem with the sammy's at least with this year and maybe last years is that you have to label HDMI'1' 'PC Input' to get that 1 frame(The 1ms has
only been confirmed by UK reviews, seems completely different for NA models, mixed reactions i guess) BUT when doing this(At least with the Sammy plasma's
which may apply to the LCD's too) little trick you're basically locking out basic picture controls which you have zero control over like COLOR, COLOR temp, Sharpness ect and that to me is an enormous deal breaker.
HDTV.Uk also uses the older method of testing, in comparison to the newer method AVS is doing. It's pretty damn confusing and I don't
know what to believe anymore either. eek! But I DO know what a 1 frame/16ms set feels like and i've had 2 of them, being the
LD450 and LK450(via component. Both 32" and 42") I'm glad i've been reading through this forum for years now, without it i'd be completely screwed on what to
get as far as gaming goes. a massive trial and error party if you will in terms of testing for lag. XP
Anyways! I've decided that i'm going to get a 32" LK450 or the new replacement model for this year which is the new LG PS560 60hz 1080p LCD.
$349 CAD for the 32". I'll probably snag one early next year...But it's going back if it doesn't deliver 1 frame via component. If that's
the case, i'll just replace it with last years 32" LK450. As for you INtense(hehe) situation if you want to make a SAFE choice as far as LCD's go, GET the 32" LG 1080p 60hz LK450 Online and get a set of official Nintendo component cables ready.lol :P
And you'll be set. I sold my 42" to a friend of a friend of mine since i'm getting a 50" S30 plasma as my main display, but again i'd love to have a small LCD for some odd reason
on the side and i'm going with what i 'know' is the best possible option for gaming.
And about getting a 16:9 HDTV CRT >
http://reviews.cnet.com/direct-view-tvs-crt/sony-kd-34xbr960/4505-6481_7-30787600.html
Here's the grand daddy of 16:9 CRT's. The Sony XBR960 34" Widescreen CRT wink.gif
This set will blow the lid off that LG in terms of Motion handeling and Black levels.
But the LG will own it in terms of producing an extremely bright gorgeous picture and super bright whites, which honestly make
games like Kirby's Epic Yarn look magical, plus the LG will produce a cleaner image(Expert Mode especially, due to the natural H & V sharpness controls)
and can be played in a super bright room free of glare. Plus it would take up ALOT less space in comparison to the Sony CRT.If this set can properly resolve 1280x720p(since most wii U games will in fact be 720p) and can do 1 frame of input lag
than i'd defnitly look into this instead seeing as how you're opting for a small sized display. THIS should definilty be another option
other than the LK450. And it would be a much more natural jump since you're retaining that perfect CRT motion and Black levels without
sacrificing anything like you would with LCD. BUT, beware if you were to pick one of these up from Craigs list, the failure rate could be pretty
high. Whoknows really. And then you have possible geomerty problems, but eh it's no real biggie.
Here's a link to the Official KD-34XBR960 AVS Thread > http://www.avsforum.com/t/408146/the-official-kd-34xbr960-thread

This week I received a "like new" official Wii Component Cable, so there's no worries in that department.

It would be nice if a LCD TV existed that could rival that Sony WEGA CRT in terms of "overall" performance. The thing about a HD CRT is they have no lag in Standard Definition, and have a service menu that can be accessed to eliminate lag on HD sources. Plus, they don't upscale, they display 480i, 480p, 720p natively. CRT is still in many ways superior to plasma/lcd. It will take something like OLED (and a built in chip to eliminate lag completely) to rival CRT.

I'm wondering if the Panasonic 32" LCD's this year have less than 1 frame of lag. Its hard to find out for sure, and for some reason the USA gets neglected while the UK tests lag frequently.

Back in the 80's and 90's I never had to worry about this crap. I would find a tube TV with a great picture, take it home, hook up a game system, and WHAM I was playing my NES/SNES games without a second thought.

Nowadays I have to worry about lag, motion blur, black colors, resolution, backlight type, panel type, etc. This is insane! Why aren't things as simple as they use to be? Why must it be so nearly impossible to find an excellent gaming TV?
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post #22 of 39
10/5/12 at 5:34pm
lol Super OLED will hopefully be the answer to all of these annoying and bogus problems. Samsung
claimed they have virtually no motion blur....Which still doesn't sound like it's CRT perfect, otherwise they would of said so. yeesh.
Still, SUPER OLED will put an end to LCD, LED and plasma, At least when sets come in varied sizes and actually become
affordable unlike the 55" samsung Super OLED TV that's supposed to hit for $8000 at the end of the year. Even then, why do i get the feeling
that the input lag will be higher than the norm?

I miss the 80's, I'd give anything to go back for so many reasons outside of gaming, but that's also another giant enormous reason! biggrin.gif
The cartoons were just brilliant(Hell TV in general was actually worth watching), the horror movies, the fashion, the 80's synth pop/music in general, the out of this world commercials
beaming with imagination, color and creativity ect ect I could go on and on. XP i don't understand why these XBOX babies continuesly gush over everything
HD. It's fantastic and everything, but after the initial 'omg shock' you get used to it and it just becomes natural. I mean, the golden age of gaming was just too bloody amazing in comparison
to this massive pile of XBOX/PLaysation crap that's currently reaking up the industry with the piles and piles of unoriginal shooters being advertized on TV. Thank god for the Wii, 3DS and DS, otherwise i would of quit modern gaming all together
and instead focus on the retro, specificly the NES, SNES, Atari 2600, GameBoy and maybe the Genesis.

But anyways! Since the Sony CRT does 720p natively and IF the input lag can somehow be turned off in the service menu(even if it's 1 frame, that's
still great) than that seems like the ultimate choice for you. And i've got to say, i'm so glad
i stuck with my Sony Wega 32" CRT SDTV throughout most of this generation with the wii. So many people out there got the complete wrong
impression with motion controls since all of their HDTV's were riddled with different degrees of input lag. Motion controls when done
right are absolutely ground breaking(Metroid Prime 3, Elebits, RE4: Wii Edition ect ect) and they've breathed new life into a stagnent industry
relying on big hollywoodized games with shiny pretty graphics and more polygons(Cough* PS3 and XBOX 360)
I've owned both of those and i got rid of them, never have i been so miserable with gaming, especially with the XBOX. :P

Console bashing aside. XP With the Sony CRT.....You'll get 'perfect' CRT motion and black levels, 1 or 0ms of input lag and it can properly display
720p and 480p. I've heard that there is input lag when feeding the TV a 480'i' signal, which goes for your NES,SNES and certain Wii games.
But like you mentioned, maybe it's possible to fix in the service menu. Had this set been 50" i'd be all for it....Scratch that, it would
weigh more than a dinosaur and be as bulky as Punky Brewster's house.lol

Oh and somebody said they were 'happy' with the input lag performance of the Panasonic 1080p E5(ALPHA IPS Panel) 32/37" LED....But what does that mean?
'happy' doesn't sound completely satisfyed. More like, eh it's good enough for me. And this user most likely used HDMI, so there's a chance
component is lower. All of this extremely annoying. I've already figured out my situation with with the entire plasma ordeal, which i'll
be ordering in less than a week...'Refurbished' that is, it's nearly impossible to find a seller willing to ship to canada.
Part of me wishes the wii U wasn't coming out until next year, i'm a bit behind with my Wii actually. Still need to play Galaxy 2, Skyward Sword
Donkey Kong Country returns ect ect. But as you know, getting a nintendo console on launch is tradition!
Edited by WaveBoy - 10/5/12 at 5:46pm
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post #23 of 39
10/5/12 at 6:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

lol Super OLED will hopefully be the answer to all of these annoying and bogus problems. Samsung
claimed they have virtually no motion blur....Which still doesn't sound like it's CRT perfect, otherwise they would of said so. yeesh.
Still, SUPER OLED will put an end to LCD, LED and plasma, At least when sets come in varied sizes and actually become
affordable unlike the 55" samsung Super OLED TV that's supposed to hit for $8000 at the end of the year. Even then, why do i get the feeling
that the input lag will be higher than the norm?
I miss the 80's, I'd give anything to go back for so many reasons outside of gaming, but that's also another giant enormous reason! biggrin.gif
The cartoons were just brilliant(Hell TV in general was actually worth watching), the horror movies, the fashion, the 80's synth pop/music in general, the out of this world commercials
beaming with imagination, color and creativity ect ect I could go on and on. XP i don't understand why these XBOX babies continuesly gush over everything
HD. It's fantastic and everything, but after the initial 'omg shock' you get used to it and it just becomes natural. I mean, the golden age of gaming was just too bloody amazing in comparison
to this massive pile of XBOX/PLaysation crap that's currently reaking up the industry with the piles and piles of unoriginal shooters being advertized on TV. Thank god for the Wii, 3DS and DS, otherwise i would of quit modern gaming all together
and instead focus on the retro, specificly the NES, SNES, Atari 2600, GameBoy and maybe the Genesis.
But anyways! Since the Sony CRT does 720p natively and IF the input lag can somehow be turned off in the service menu(even if it's 1 frame, that's
still great) than that seems like the ultimate choice for you. And i've got to say, i'm so glad
i stuck with my Sony Wega 32" CRT SDTV throughout most of this generation with the wii. So many people out there got the complete wrong
impression with motion controls since all of their HDTV's were riddled with different degrees of input lag. Motion controls when done
right are absolutely ground breaking(Metroid Prime 3, Elebits, RE4: Wii Edition ect ect) and they've breathed new life into a stagnent industry
relying on big hollywoodized games with shiny pretty graphics and more polygons(Cough* PS3 and XBOX 360)
I've owned both of those and i got rid of them, never have i been so miserable with gaming, especially with the XBOX. :P
Console bashing aside. XP With the Sony CRT.....You'll get 'perfect' CRT motion and black levels, 1 or 0ms of input lag and it can properly display
720p and 480p. I've heard that there is input lag when feeding the TV a 480'i' signal, which goes for your NES,SNES and certain Wii games.
But like you mentioned, maybe it's possible to fix in the service menu. Had this set been 50" i'd be all for it....Scratch that, it would
weigh more than a dinosaur and be as bulky as Punky Brewster's house.lol
Oh and somebody said they were 'happy' with the input lag performance of the Panasonic 1080p E5(ALPHA IPS Panel) 32/37" LED....But what does that mean?
'happy' doesn't sound completely satisfyed. More like, eh it's good enough for me. And this user most likely used HDMI, so there's a chance
component is lower. All of this extremely annoying. I've already figured out my situation with with the entire plasma ordeal, which i'll
be ordering in less than a week...'Refurbished' that is, it's nearly impossible to find a seller willing to ship to canada.
Part of me wishes the wii U wasn't coming out until next year, i'm a bit behind with my Wii actually. Still need to play Galaxy 2, Skyward Sword
Donkey Kong Country returns ect ect. But as you know, getting a nintendo console on launch is tradition!

Now that you mention it, I agree that people who bash the wii motion controls are probably using laggy HDTV's. I wouldn't be surprised if the reviewer of Skyward Sword on Gamespot used a laggy HDTV, because on my TV, Skyward Sword played perfectly. My only grip with Skyward Sword was that the motion controls were forced AND overused. But I got over it and the game grew on me.

You know, if it weren't for ultra tiny text in some games being impossible to read on my 20" COMPOSITE ONLY SDTV, I wouldn't be considering a HDTV even for my pre-ordered Wii-U. Just curious, did you ever have any problems reading tiny text on your WEGA 32" CRT SDTV from games like Rayman Origins, Xenoblade, or any other game that utilizes tiny text? (I'm thinking that using Component inputs on a SDTV - if available - can help fix this problem; or at least it helped on my dad's other TV, a 60" Hitachi SD RPTV. But gosh, even on that huge TV Rayman Origins font was too small. Dumb out-of-touch-with-reality game developers must be sitting 8 inches away from their PC monitors while developing these games)
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post #24 of 39
10/5/12 at 11:14pm
Well, you're gaming on a 20"-something CRT using composite cables, so the smaller screen in combination with composite(especially) PQ will
dish out a blurrier picture(Including weaker brightness and craptastic color. :P) will no doubt make it harder to read. I never had any problems reading text
on my 32" Sony Wega using component. I had my WIi hooked up to composite for a few days when i first got it because i had to wait for my local
BB to get the Component cables back in stock, and when i made the switch, WOW was it a difference! The image was clearer and crisp, the colors
were rich, colorful and vibrant and the image was much brighter.

Anyways, If i were you, i'd hunt down that XBR 960 34" CRT, sounds like the perfect fit for you. If i were going for a 32"(XBR's 34", bonus! :P) size display as
my main set up for the wii U it would definitly be my number 1 option. Like i said, i just can't settle for LCD/LED. The thought of playing
any first or 3rd person based title with the camera constantly moving around which blurs the entire screen gives me a headache. I just can't adjust to LCD or LED technology anymor.
I tried and i tried, with the 3 previous LCD's i had, but the mediocre blacks(which i'm sure are a lot better on higher end sammy LED's)
and especially the terrible motion smearing did me in...Some people can handle it, but i can't. Definitly can't for movies...it's just nasty.
All of the movie experiences i had on my LG LCD were ruined because of those 2 reasons. And now i'm back to a 32" CRT and i couldn't be happier!


As for Rayman Origins, i actually just picked it up about a week or so ago. But i haven't played it yet, so i can't comment on the small
text. IF the game forces the widescreen bars on you like NSMBWii, Kirby's Epic Yarn ect ect, than i'd just go into the wii menu and select
widescreen, which ditches the bars and fills up your 4:3 Tube TV. THAT should help right there, but using component cables should
do the trick.

I say forget all of this LCD/LED crap and go for the XBR CRT if you can find one on craigs list. I'm sure more people would be interested in it,
but many people like myself want a larger screen, however i couldn't care less if my HDTV is razor thin so the bulkyness of the XBR wouldn't bother me one bit.

And i've got to say it's hard to even take these reviewers seriously who play their wii's on these laggy HDTV's
Not to mention set their wii games to widescreen....Which basically makes the image look lousy, soft and dull.
I've even noticed the motion doesn't look 'quite' right either in 16:9. I highly doubt they've got 1 frame capable sets....
they're most likely dipping in the 2 area . Meanwhile gamers who stuck with their lag free CRT's were getting 'thee' ultimate
wii experience. opinions on Motion controls have been completely divided and i blame these stupid laggy HDTV's, that and lazy obese close minded trolls haha.
Edited by WaveBoy - 10/5/12 at 11:22pm
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post #25 of 39
10/6/12 at 3:57am
TCL LE32HDF3300TA 32-Inch 720p
TCL LE32HDE5300 32-Inch 720p
TCL L32HDP60 32-Inch 720p

Lots of sizes, some reviews say no input lag and the panel is made by Samsung ,
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post #26 of 39
10/6/12 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

Well, you're gaming on a 20"-something CRT using composite cables, so the smaller screen in combination with composite(especially) PQ will
dish out a blurrier picture(Including weaker brightness and craptastic color. :P) will no doubt make it harder to read. I never had any problems reading text
on my 32" Sony Wega using component. I had my WIi hooked up to composite for a few days when i first got it because i had to wait for my local
BB to get the Component cables back in stock, and when i made the switch, WOW was it a difference! The image was clearer and crisp, the colors
were rich, colorful and vibrant and the image was much brighter.
Anyways, If i were you, i'd hunt down that XBR 960 34" CRT, sounds like the perfect fit for you. If i were going for a 32"(XBR's 34", bonus! :P) size display as
my main set up for the wii U it would definitly be my number 1 option. Like i said, i just can't settle for LCD/LED. The thought of playing
any first or 3rd person based title with the camera constantly moving around which blurs the entire screen gives me a headache. I just can't adjust to LCD or LED technology anymor.
I tried and i tried, with the 3 previous LCD's i had, but the mediocre blacks(which i'm sure are a lot better on higher end sammy LED's)
and especially the terrible motion smearing did me in...Some people can handle it, but i can't. Definitly can't for movies...it's just nasty.
All of the movie experiences i had on my LG LCD were ruined because of those 2 reasons. And now i'm back to a 32" CRT and i couldn't be happier!
As for Rayman Origins, i actually just picked it up about a week or so ago. But i haven't played it yet, so i can't comment on the small
text. IF the game forces the widescreen bars on you like NSMBWii, Kirby's Epic Yarn ect ect, than i'd just go into the wii menu and select
widescreen, which ditches the bars and fills up your 4:3 Tube TV. THAT should help right there, but using component cables should
do the trick.
I say forget all of this LCD/LED crap and go for the XBR CRT if you can find one on craigs list. I'm sure more people would be interested in it,
but many people like myself want a larger screen, however i couldn't care less if my HDTV is razor thin so the bulkyness of the XBR wouldn't bother me one bit.
And i've got to say it's hard to even take these reviewers seriously who play their wii's on these laggy HDTV's
Not to mention set their wii games to widescreen....Which basically makes the image look lousy, soft and dull.
I've even noticed the motion doesn't look 'quite' right either in 16:9. I highly doubt they've got 1 frame capable sets....
they're most likely dipping in the 2 area . Meanwhile gamers who stuck with their lag free CRT's were getting 'thee' ultimate
wii experience. opinions on Motion controls have been completely divided and i blame these stupid laggy HDTV's, that and lazy obese close minded trolls haha.

Unfortunately the Sony CRT is too big after doing some width/depth measuring.

I have however considered the 26" CRT Toshiba HDTV - http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-26HF66-Upconverting-Widescreen-Pure/dp/B000F9WFH2/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I would however have to find someone willing to ship it, OR find one locally. Its a 94 pound set amazingly! I read that HDTV CRT's always upconvert 480i signals though....hope its not true. Overscan is an issue too, as nowadays, game developers are putting text/icons/menus/etc as close to the edge of the screen as possible. Makes no sense to me. Heck even many flat panel tv's have overscan. But apparently this can be fixed in the "forbidden" service menu.

Worse case scenario is that I'm forced to get a 27" WEGA/Trinitron CRT 4:3 with component inputs, and if necessary, scretch the image to remove black bars. Ahh.......I too miss the SIMPLE days of gaming. The 80's were glorious, with The Dukes of Hazzard, the NES, the amazingly catchy pop tunes, etc. As the song by Eddie Money says "I Wanna Go Back". Gaming started getting boring with the advent of 3D polygonial gaming in the late 90s, with developers thinking that more and more bloated, slow, and complicated gaming was the future. Thankfully, Nintendo still has a remnant of the 80's left in their creative abilities, as evidenced by Kirby's Epic Yarn, New Super Mario Bros Wii, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Wario Land Shake It, etc. If the XBOX/PS geeks "honestly" grew up on NES, they would know what "real" gaming is all about. I'm sure that Nester (Howard Phillips) would agree.
Edited by nintygaming - 10/6/12 at 4:54pm
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post #27 of 39
10/7/12 at 5:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy View Post

I tried and i tried, with the 3 previous LCD's i had, but the mediocre blacks(which i'm sure are a lot better on higher end sammy LED's)
and especially the terrible motion smearing did me in...Some people can handle it, but i can't. Definitly can't for movies...it's just nasty.
All of the movie experiences i had on my LG LCD were ruined because of those 2 reasons. And now i'm back to a 32" CRT and i couldn't be happier!

Have you tried out the S-IPS panels or - even better - the IPS-Alpha Panels? Those have very little - and at times - less motion blur, and accurate color and great viewing angles. And due to the fast pixel response time, companies like Panasonic does not have to use RTC (Response Time Compensation) with greatly adds lag. If you could shut off RTC on a VA panel, then lag would be greatly reduced, BUT motion blur would be greatly increased. Still though, all flat panels (Plasma, LCD) have blur to some degree. Such a shame when CRT had none at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

the only part that is not defeatable is Response Time Compensation aka Overdrive aka Pixel Overshoot, the few sets that are able to reduce or adjust this effect will suffer picture quality degerdations as a result and that is why for the most part is fixed and thus the lag it induces combine with few other factors but mainly the pixel lag after that is the cause for overall lag of an LCD display.

It took me a while to grasp what "RTC" was, but now that I know, I truly understand why IPS panels "typically" lag much less. Companies that use VA panels ether need to improve the technology, or quit cheaping out and start using IPS panels. When they "add" gimmicks like "RTC", it only hurts the consumer in the long wrong, especially gamers. Thanks Frito for helping me to grasp what your trying to say.

So to summarize, I was definitely wrong when I stated that Panel Type had little or nothing to do with lag. Maybe - hypothetically - panel type would be a non-issue IF companies did not use RTC as an add-on that creates lag, but, sadly this is not the case.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/15/13 at 12:48pm
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post #28 of 39
10/8/12 at 6:56pm
Thread Starter 
HERE'S SOMETHING you may find interesting WaveBoy

The 2012 model LCD Panasonics apparently no longer have "Alpha" IPS panels. Instead, they have cheaper plain old "IPS" panels, but not "Alpha". And as a result, the smearing is worse, and thus, they have to tack on something like RTC to compensate, and as a result, the lag increases. This is why the 2011-earlier Alpha panels did 16ms or less (the TC-L32E3 did 10ms).

So screw the 2012 Panny LCD's. They are apparently using cheaper LG or similar IPS panels this year, and there's no indication that they will go back to the more superior Alpha version. So what does this mean for the gamer? No more reliable sub-1-frame LCD HDTV's are available. Its no wonder people are pulling their hair out with HDTV shopping. I don't know of any HDTV manufacturer that notices nor seems to care. Its all about which one has the best picture quality, not the best function. Once again...."graphics over gameplay".

Frito mentioned that HDTV lag has only gotten WORSE over the past few years, not better. So, the future is not looking good for gamers.
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post #29 of 39
10/8/12 at 7:09pm
I would test out any of the models I was seriously considering before assuming there would be too much input lag. Also, most people are fine with 2-3 frames of lag and 1-2 is pretty solid.
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post #30 of 39
10/8/12 at 7:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I would test out any of the models I was seriously considering before assuming there would be too much input lag. Also, most people are fine with 2-3 frames of lag and 1-2 is pretty solid.

I know I'm about to sound crazy, but there's just no way I would accept more than 1 frame of delay. 2011-earlier Panny's are my ticket. Besides, there was an individual who tested the Samsung UN32EH5000 to have 2-3 frames on average (not sure which mode, but its posted on here if you search).

When you have to watch and wait for Mr. Dream (NES Punch-Out) to flash so that you can time your dodge to avoid getting knocked out by his nasty uppercuts, I can guarantee you that 2 frames of lag will put Little Mac on his butt. Paying for a TV that cannot keep up with speed runs of old-school games (and modern motion games like Skyward Sword) is not merely a waste of money, but a technological failure all together.......that is unless you only watch movies and play casually.
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