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NetFlix RedBox BD's Without DTS-HD Master Audio / DD 5.1 Instead - Page 18

post #511 of 918
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL . . . "the public" doesn't have an HD audio receiver.
The only feedback they will get is from fourms like this one. So how many people are we talking about? 100? 200?

That would hold true for a very large portion of AVS traffic .. and does not make one commentary any more valid than another ..
post #512 of 918
Avengers and Fright Night from Netflix both have 7.1 soundtracks.

Avengers was released by: Paramount
Fright Night was released by: DreamWorks/Touchstone

The label on both discs say "dolby digital" on the discs themselves. We should start a master list of studios that are degrading the soundtracks and which arent.
post #513 of 918
Sorry, I only read the first couple pages then skipped to the end.

I think this whole thing is ridiculous. I have never purchased many movies in any format. Only the ones I plan on watching over and over. I do like watching movies though and like all the folks here care about how the movie is presented. So I do feel a little cheated when a movie comes without the HD resolution tracks. I think that the argument that you should just buy all the discs if you care so much is a little silly. I have spent a lot on speakers and an AVR but those get used all the time. Why would I buy a disc to watch once and then have it sit there? I could sell it but that is a pain. Sure its the studio's right to sell the rental places whatever disc they choose but what is the point? They are not going to drive me to buy the discs. They only aggravate me. Now when I see that a film is a Lionsgate release I'm going to be less likely to even go see it at the theater because I think they're jerks. I'm not asking them to go back and remix and remaster the soundtrack they have already done it but now they are taking the time and money to make discs with different formats instead of just doing runs of the same disc. I admit that I don't really care about the extras missing off the rental disc. If I was that interested then I think the movie would fall into the "buy it" category.
post #514 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

Avengers and Fright Night from Netflix both have 7.1 soundtracks.
Avengers was released by: Paramount
Fright Night was released by: DreamWorks/Touchstone
The label on both discs say "dolby digital" on the discs themselves. We should start a master list of studios that are degrading the soundtracks and which arent.
The Avengers does indeed have a DTS HD MA 7.1 audio track, however, they never stamped the logo on the disc (only the Dolby Digital logo). I have seen this with a few titles released through Disney. I could be wrong, but the distributor of The Avengers is Disney/Buena Vista and the company to own the rights to it is Paramount. Either that or I could have it backwards too. I never understood why the Dolby logo is stamped to some discs, but the DTS HD logo is not.
post #515 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Matt View Post

The Avengers does indeed have a DTS HD MA 7.1 audio track, however, they never stamped the logo on the disc (only the Dolby Digital logo). I have seen this with a few titles released through Disney. I could be wrong, but the distributor of The Avengers is Disney/Buena Vista and the company to own the rights to it is Paramount. Either that or I could have it backwards too. I never understood why the Dolby logo is stamped to some discs, but the DTS HD logo is not.

Perhaps it is for "plausible deniability", in the event that they wanted to be able to release a dumbed down rental version sans DTS-HD Master Audio, and not be subject to false advertising accusations.
post #516 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Matt View Post

I never understood why the Dolby logo is stamped to some discs, but the DTS HD logo is not.

Perhaps it's part of the "terms of use" for a studio using a Dolby audio track on a disc?
post #517 of 918
why are they being dicks to us though? seriously how many people even have a 7.1 system that they are trying to screw over?
post #518 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

why are they being dicks to us though? seriously how many people even have a 7.1 system that they are trying to screw over?
Honestly, I don't think it's us they're screwing with - it's the rental companies.

They're doing everything they can to make renting unappealing so customers will drop those rental services and they'll go away.

Then, when people want to watch a movie, they'll have no other choice but to go through the studios and buy their discs or use their streaming services.
post #519 of 918
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

why are they being dicks to us though? seriously how many people even have a 7.1 system that they are trying to screw over?

To get a wholesale deal and give folks cheap rentals, NF takes what they can get .. otherwise, they must buy the same copy you can buy off the shelf .. and that could cause prices to go up .. there are alternatives to NF you can rent from if it's a big deal .. or buy it, which is what the studio wants ..

The studios have hated the rental market since the first tape walked out of a video store .. disk rental has just given an opportunity to remove something and make a retail buy perhaps more appealing .. to some, maybe ..
post #520 of 918
I actually called Netflix to let them know I think it stinks. The guy agreed with me and said that was what the studio gave them.
post #521 of 918
It certainly is disappointing that Lionsgate has gone this route. Lets just hope other studios do not do this. If it gets to the point where every studio starts doing it then that is when a real uproar will begin. Another thing I worry about is the video quality. Lets hope the studios don't start decreasing the video quality on the rentals. That would really suck, but I think it would be very doubtful this would happen.
post #522 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

To get a wholesale deal and give folks cheap rentals, NF takes what they can get .. otherwise, they must buy the same copy you can buy off the shelf .. and that could cause prices to go up .. there are alternatives to NF you can rent from if it's a big deal .. or buy it, which is what the studio wants ..
The studios have hated the rental market since the first tape walked out of a video store .. disk rental has just given an opportunity to remove something and make a retail buy perhaps more appealing .. to some, maybe ..

I guess I don't understand why, from the studio's standpoint, they could sell these "crippled" discs any cheaper, as they would have to have a separate production run for the rental outfits like Netflix. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just make them all the same?
post #523 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

I guess I don't understand why, from the studio's standpoint, they could sell these "crippled" discs any cheaper, as they would have to have a separate production run for the rental outfits like Netflix. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just make them all the same?

They want to discourage renting, encourage buying and feel that this will in part help them accomplish that. They are ignoring two facts:
Fact 1 - these movies are available for FREE in full quality online within hours of release. When it becomes too hard to get the content legally for a reasonable price, people who would normally want to purchase the content will quickly turn to illegal or black market avenues. Right now the few dollars it costs to get the rental is less expensive (from a time/hassle/risk standpoint) than downloading a 30GB file from a questionable source. If it suddenly is going to cost $20+ for one viewing of a movie at home, that equation changes pretty quickly.
Fact 2 - thanks to the first sale doctrine, there is another avenue available. You can borrow the movie from a friend. Or you can buy the movie and then sell it to another person for the net cost of the price of a rental (or less). Then they can do the same, and so on.

The first sale doctrine is why they are so interested in the digital copy/streaming arena. Thanks to DRM tied to the user (instead of the movie as a whole), they can effectively kill the first sale doctrine provisions. You have no longer 'purchased' the physical media that you are allowed to resell, instead you have licensed the right to view the content for a limited duration.
post #524 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

They want to discourage renting, encourage buying and feel that this will in part help them accomplish that. They are ignoring two facts:
Fact 1 - these movies are available for FREE in full quality online within hours of release. When it becomes too hard to get the content legally for a reasonable price, people who would normally want to purchase the content will quickly turn to illegal or black market avenues. Right now the few dollars it costs to get the rental is less expensive (from a time/hassle/risk standpoint) than downloading a 30GB file from a questionable source. If it suddenly is going to cost $20+ for one viewing of a movie at home, that equation changes pretty quickly.
Fact 2 - thanks to the first sale doctrine, there is another avenue available. You can borrow the movie from a friend. Or you can buy the movie and then sell it to another person for the net cost of the price of a rental (or less). Then they can do the same, and so on.
The first sale doctrine is why they are so interested in the digital copy/streaming arena. Thanks to DRM tied to the user (instead of the movie as a whole), they can effectively kill the first sale doctrine provisions. You have no longer 'purchased' the physical media that you are allowed to resell, instead you have licensed the right to view the content for a limited duration.

Do they have any credible evidence that crippling the HD audio on rentals will convince even one person to purchase a title instead of just renting it as usual? I know I and many others have contacted studios and Netflix to advise them that such tactics will not result in my purchasing even one more title. DD 5.1 will have to be good enough for me. I am going to only purchase the movies that I know I am going to watch multiple times. I guess their next step will be to eliminate rentals completely, to try to force people to purchase the titles!/sarc.
post #525 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Do they have any credible evidence that crippling the HD audio on rentals will convince even one person to purchase a title instead of just renting it as usual? I know I and many others have contacted studios and Netflix to advise them that such tactics will not result in my purchasing even one more title. DD 5.1 will have to be good enough for me. I am going to only purchase the movies that I know I am going to watch multiple times. I guess their next step will be to eliminate rentals completely, to try to force people to purchase the titles!/sarc.

As long as there is physical media (example: optical discs) the studios can't eliminate rentals due to the First Sale Doctrine law.
post #526 of 918
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

I guess I don't understand why, from the studio's standpoint, they could sell these "crippled" discs any cheaper, as they would have to have a separate production run for the rental outfits like Netflix. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just make them all the same?

No.. it's pretty much an automated process and rental discs are sent in bulk with no fancy package .. etc .. we've been thru much of this on the thread ..

In a way, we are actually lucky that the studios do offer a rental copy .. they could eliminate the rental copy and force NF et al to buy the retail version .. which would cause a price increase for rental .. this is the way it used to be back in the day .. perhaps that's next ..
post #527 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

No.. it's pretty much an automated process and rental discs are sent in bulk with no fancy package .. etc .. we've been thru much of this on the thread ..
In a way, we are actually lucky that the studios do offer a rental copy .. they could eliminate the rental copy and force NF et al to buy the retail version .. which would cause a price increase for rental .. this is the way it used to be back in the day .. perhaps that's next ..

Rentailers can buy retail copies from wholesalers. It's only when they get into a pissing match with a studio (like Redbox is with WB) will they go to retailers to buy their rental copies.
post #528 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

Do they have any credible evidence

Since when are any of these decisions(going all the way back to the introduction of the VCR and home taping/rental) based on 'credible evidence'? It is all based on some department heads whim or some consensus in a boardroom.

http://www.despair.com/meetings.html
post #529 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by madaudio View Post

re TitusTroy above and most others on this thread:
Quote:
Hunger Games is supposed to have an excellent DTS-HD track and I feel cheated not getting it with my BB rental...isn't the point of Blu-ray to have 1080p video AND HD audio...otherwise I could just rent the DVD version or wait for it to show up on HBO (I know they are 1080i but the point is I'm getting half of a Blu-ray minus the HD audio)

No one responded to my post 439 on page 15 of this thread so I'll raise the question again:

Even the bought blu-rays (movies or concerts) with dts-hd master (or DD Tru HD) audio show only 48k sampling ( as on a standard DVD) when played through my avr. Most blu-rays are not giving the full potential of dts hd master audio or DD tru-hd. Admittedly they are probably 24 bit: I presume standard dvd with DTS and DD 5.1 are only 16 bit (???? someone correct me if I am wrong there), giving the blu-ray a slight edge (sound-wise) over the DVD (with the sampling rate for both being 48k but 16 bit vs 24 bit).

So how much are you really missing??

Admittedly when I raised this question I was ignoring the fact that DD 5.1 48k on DVD's was compressed, while the DTS HD Master Audioe or DD Tru HD, while also only 48k, were lossless. (I suppose this explains my perception that blu-ray DTS HD MA does seem to have more "punch" than DVD sound tracks).

But still, very few blu-rays (even the full retail editions) are going the full distance as far as HD sound is concerned. Again, as stated in my earlier post, only exception I have come across so far is the blu-ray Leonard Cohen "Songs From The Road" disc which registers as 96k sample rate when played.

BTW, I rent most of my blu-rays from Quickflix (I am in Oz, downunder) and my rental blu-rays do seem to come with the DTS Master Audio sound track (according to the readout my avr gives me) so maybe our (downunder Aussia) rentals are better value than what most of you guys (in the US, Europe etc) are getting??

For those interested in Classical music (and maybe jazz??), Naxos now have a small, but growing, catalogue of blu-ray discs with DTS HD Master Audio tracks recorded and edited in hi-def 24 bit 96k format.
Very few modern Hollywood soundtracks are recorded at anything but 24-bit/48kHz quality. That is why you don't see higher sample rates on lossless movie soundtracks from Blu-ray. Now music releases are a different matter. Many labels have a policy at the moment of using 24-bit/96kHz sound for concert recordings and studio masters.
post #530 of 918
I buy movies I'll watch more than once, but most titles aren't worthy of my shelf space (nor my budget, but shelf space is more finite). So if I can't rent them in suitable quality I'll just watch them when they show up on cable. Simple as that.
The solution to this is pretty simple. For degraded discs, just don't rent them. But is it that simple? How do you know when a disc has been downgraded prior to renting? We would have to start a rental "blacklist" of sorts. That requires effort, and maybe someone on this board is enthusiastic enough to take this on. (maybe someone already has?)
To me the sound quality that puts it over the top and make the disc hassle worth it. Without the good audio I'm just as happy to watch it when it comes around on cable. I don't hear enough difference between DD 640 and 448 to bother with a disc. Sure, no macroblocking on the disc compared to cable, but still. The macroblocking is less annoying than the dead sound.
I'm sure studios make enough on the rental market that it's worth not killing it. If the rental market is threatened by downgrading the experience maybe they quite screwing with the disc. I'm pretty sure their motivation is piracy. But would anyone that's dedicated to stealing content actually buy it anyway? Is it really a sale lost? I don't think so.
post #531 of 918
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plm999 View Post

I buy movies I'll watch more than once, but most titles aren't worthy of my shelf space (nor my budget, but shelf space is more finite). So if I can't rent them in suitable quality I'll just watch them when they show up on cable. Simple as that.
The solution to this is pretty simple. For degraded discs, just don't rent them. But is it that simple? How do you know when a disc has been downgraded prior to renting? We would have to start a rental "blacklist" of sorts. That requires effort, and maybe someone on this board is enthusiastic enough to take this on. (maybe someone already has?)
To me the sound quality that puts it over the top and make the disc hassle worth it. Without the good audio I'm just as happy to watch it when it comes around on cable. I don't hear enough difference between DD 640 and 448 to bother with a disc. Sure, no macroblocking on the disc compared to cable, but still. The macroblocking is less annoying than the dead sound.
I'm sure studios make enough on the rental market that it's worth not killing it. If the rental market is threatened by downgrading the experience maybe they quite screwing with the disc. I'm pretty sure their motivation is piracy. But would anyone that's dedicated to stealing content actually buy it anyway? Is it really a sale lost? I don't think so.

It's a handful of titles only .. listed on the thread ..and, if SQ is your motivation for renting or buying a BD, what about PQ .. ??

Studios (Lionsgate) is not trying to kill the rental market .. they are attempting to add value to retail BD's .. thus, giving consumers an incentive to buy the disk ..

I don't quite undertstand why piracy crops up on the thread regularly ..
post #532 of 918
I'm far less sensitive to PQ as long as it isn't so bad that it's a distraction, (which does happen on channels like HBO Comedy and SHO Extreme), but if the SQ isn't there, then PQ matters even less.
post #533 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

Hunger Games is supposed to have an excellent DTS-HD track and I feel cheated not getting it with my BB rental...isn't the point of Blu-ray to have 1080p video AND HD audio...otherwise I could just rent the DVD version or wait for it to show up on HBO (I know they are 1080i but the point is I'm getting half of a Blu-ray minus the HD audio)

I watched Hunger Games from Netflix (DD5.1) then bought the movie (DTS7.1) and the difference is strartling.

Interesting footnote though...Rented Snow White and the Huntsman expecting DD5.1 as that's what it says on Netflix...The rental disc I recieved was DTS Master Audio 7.1 (Which by the way is an awesome sountrack)... Who knew...
post #534 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by keef95 View Post

I watched Hunger Games from Netflix (DD5.1) then bought the movie (DTS7.1) and the difference is strartling.
Interesting footnote though...Rented Snow White and the Huntsman expecting DD5.1 as that's what it says on Netflix...The rental disc I recieved was DTS Master Audio 7.1 (Which by the way is an awesome sountrack)... Who knew...

I just checked, and the Netflix page for SWATH says, DD 7.1, which is only partially correct.
post #535 of 918
"Studios (Lionsgate) is not trying to kill the rental market .. they are attempting to add value to retail BD's .. thus, giving consumers an incentive to buy the disk .."

Kill is a rough word but if you look at Lionsgate's analyst presentations their business is production, distribution, sale and rental. The sale part is disks (e.g., BD "it provides more margin than DVD") and the rental part is VOD/streaming. When rental is involved they want a piece of every viewing and they want to fully control the terms of the rental to control price, prevent margin leakage outside their channel, and prevent piracy. IMHO the studios in general want to get to (1) VOD/streaming to replace all third party rentals such as NF and BB and (2) disc sales. This way, in the near term, there is also a tiering of quality between the streams (audio and video) and what BD at retail provides. They want you to go to the movies, watch it thru VOD, and then buy.
post #536 of 918
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

"Studios (Lionsgate) is not trying to kill the rental market .. they are attempting to add value to retail BD's .. thus, giving consumers an incentive to buy the disk .."
Kill is a rough word but if you look at Lionsgate's analyst presentations their business is production, distribution, sale and rental. The sale part is disks (e.g., BD "it provides more margin than DVD") and the rental part is VOD/streaming. When rental is involved they want a piece of every viewing and they want to fully control the terms of the rental to control price, prevent margin leakage outside their channel, and prevent piracy. IMHO the studios in general want to get to (1) VOD/streaming to replace all third party rentals such as NF and BB and (2) disc sales. This way, in the near term, there is also a tiering of quality between the streams (audio and video) and what BD at retail provides. They want you to go to the movies, watch it thru VOD, and then buy.

As has been mentioned several times on this thread as well as threads on AVS since the site opened, studios have hated the rental business since the first tape went out the door .. however, that hatred does not extend into an actual attempt to elliminate all rentals .. at least not until the sale of rental disks becomes too small a segment to make any real money with .. IOW, they are not going to willfully shoot themselves in the foot ..

Please provide a link to your information ..
post #537 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

They want you to go to the movies, watch it thru VOD, and then buy.

LOL - maybe in a "perfect world" that would apply. But in the real world, not only are OD sales down, but so are OD rentals (down 26.09%) according to the Q2 2012 DEG report:

http://www.highdefforum.com/high-definition-media/137057-consumer-spending-home-entertainment-up-first-half-2012-a-6.html
post #538 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL - maybe in a "perfect world" that would apply. But in the real world, not only are OD sales down, but so are OD rentals (down 26.09%) according to the Q2 2012 DEG report:
http://www.highdefforum.com/high-definition-media/137057-consumer-spending-home-entertainment-up-first-half-2012-a-6.html

Lee-- the bulletized sections reflect my point..."BD Disc sales continue to grow steadily at double-digit rates....compared to same period last year." "Catalog product on Blu-ray Disc continued its strong growth...which further cements the notion that Blu-ray has become the standard in home entertainment.""

They want BD sales and VOD/stream rentals. I believe they are OK w/rentals going thru the floor over time as long as the transition to VOD/streaming is occuring and those numbers (Total Digital) are up quite a bit (78%1HY/Y). Whether they ultimately want BD to stay or go is a different thing. Until the VOD/streaming (if that is how it plays out) replaces it they want people to buy BD to keep an income stream in place, replacement sell BD over DVD, and sell existing movies. They like the rental agreements at the present time with the NFs and BBs since they have likely modeled/priced out a rental flow licensing agreement with each compared to losing rental at this time & rental poaching disc sales. They don't like this long term and they certainly don't like the NF/BB buying discs at retail and then not partcipating in the individual rentals. Of course if the rental guys stick around AND they all play by the studio contract system then they are probably almost indifferent; but I believe they still believe the profit going to NF/BB should be theirs and they will want to do something about that.

MGK-- the July 2012 investor PDF is at http://investors.lionsgate.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=62796&p=irol-presentations. If you Google them there is another one going back to something like 2009 or 2008 and it shows you where their head was at years ago.
Edited by jqmn - 10/16/12 at 2:09pm
post #539 of 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by jqmn View Post

Lee-- the bulletized sections reflect my point..."BD Disc sales continue to grow steadily at double-digit rates....compared to same period last year." "Catalog product on Blu-ray Disc continued its strong growth...which further cements the notion that Blu-ray has become the standard in home entertainment.""
They want BD sales and VOD/stream rentals. I believe they are OK w/rentals going thru the floor over time as long as the transition to VOD/streaming is occuring and those numbers (Total Digital) are up quite a bit (78%1HY/Y). Whether they ultimately want BD to stay or go is a different thing. Until the VOD/streaming (if that is how it plays out) replaces it they want people to buy BD to keep an income stream in place, replacement sell BD over DVD, and sell existing movies. They like the rental agreements at the present time with the NFs and BBs since they have likely modeled/priced out a rental flow licensing agreement with each compared to losing rental at this time & rental poaching disc sales. They don't like this long term and they certainly don't like the NF/BB buying discs at retail and then not partcipating in the individual rentals. Of course if the rental guys stick around AND they all play by the studio contract system then they are probably almost indifferent; but I believe they still believe the profit going to NF/BB should be theirs and they will want to do something about that.
MGK-- the July 2012 investor PDF is at http://investors.lionsgate.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=62796&p=irol-presentations. If you Google them there is another one going back to something like 2009 or 2008 and it shows you where their head was at years ago.

The problem with BD . . . it only represents 25% of the total OD sales - after 6+ years. And half that for OD rentals.

The Hollywood Studios are the greediest and stupidest business entities around. They refuse to acknowledge the state of the USA economy. It is as obvious as the nose on your face that consumers are finding other ways to entertain themselves instead of renting or buying movies.

They lost the fight against the First Sale Doctrine. There is nothing they can do to stop Netflix or Redbox . . . no matter how much they cry, piss or moan about their lost profits dues to rentals.
post #540 of 918
You'll note that I haven't disagreed with what you are saying...just saying what I think their strategy is. They should have created an industry streaming company similar to epix but on a bigger scale years ago to handle just one more channel of their distriution. But that would have required them to invest their own money (something their model usually prohibits) and they were probably advised against it on AT grounds. But they don't want the Comcasts and TW's to be the front-ends on their content; there is too much leverage and deep pockets there. While I agree with your view on NF and RB in the short term, I think the studios are working what they perceive to be an endgame that will deal with the rental houses and the cable front-ends. They have been wrong quite a few times before but for the first time technology is there to allow things to go their way if they don't mess it up too badly and too soon.
Edited by jqmn - 10/16/12 at 2:54pm
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