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NetFlix RedBox BD's Without DTS-HD Master Audio / DD 5.1 Instead - Page 20

post #571 of 933
So very late into this game. I rented Expendables from Redbox only to see the DD 5.1. I actually called Redbox and think it sucks too, but are receiving this discs from the studios. I don't agree with this at all, and if they are going to keep this up, all the rental companies need to make a disclaimer on their sites . If I knew this was the case, I wouldn't have wasted my time.
post #572 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I suspect its more of a case of rental discs more often being the source of pirated ISOs being shared by torrent. Eliminating features makes this less likely.

Odd, because with the discs in question, the full RETAIL version can be found online if you look. If the reason is to stop piracy, they failed immediately.
post #573 of 933
Maybe the trend is with movies released in theaters and not the direct to video blu rays because I just rented Fire with Fire, a Lionsgate film, and with their latest trend, I expected a dolby track, but instead it did have the DTS HDMA track.
post #574 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckademic View Post

Maybe the trend is with movies released in theaters and not the direct to video blu rays because I just rented Fire with Fire, a Lionsgate film, and with their latest trend, I expected a dolby track, but instead it did have the DTS HDMA track.

Wondering if the disk said "Rental Version" or some such .. ??
post #575 of 933
Thread Starter 
Couple of thoughts ..

The streaming business model comparison made earlier is a valid point in that the studio / distributor gets a piece of the action each time a film is "rented" to stream .. this provides, theoretically, an unlimited source of revenue in perpetuity .. which is one of the reasons that a stream is still fairly costly ..

I have a friend that is a honcho in one of the few video store chains left .. his speculation the other day was Lionsgate may have traded "rental version" disks for another forced "delay window" .. IOW, RB / NF agree to accept a "rental version" but are not subjected to a 28 or 56 day delay ..

The post earlier in which someone mentioned the PQ will be the next thing compromised, I don't believe will happen .. although most may not care or even know that the SQ is compromised, PQ is a whole different story ..
post #576 of 933
maybe i shouldnt have seen this thread. i was thinking about cancelling all my direct tv movie channels and rent blurays from netflix instead. now maybe not
post #577 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post

maybe i shouldnt have seen this thread. i was thinking about cancelling all my direct tv movie channels and rent blurays from netflix instead. now maybe not

That makes no sense. Even the 'stripped down' audio is equal to or better than what you get with directTV (or dish or cable) and the video is much better. Also you are only talking about a handful of titles without true HD on them.
post #578 of 933
i didnt read the whole thread so thats good to know. ill jump on the netflix wagon then
post #579 of 933
late to the party here but a couple of questions so i dont have to read the whole thread. i dont mind netflix titles not having hd audio on blu ray disks. but the video is important to me. is the video on theyre disks inferior or scaled down? also ive read that A LOT of people have problems with their blu ray players cant read the disks because they are either scratched or some other reason. thanks for any help as im considering netflix or just getting a roku box.
post #580 of 933
The problem I have with the Lionsgate issue is that it sets a bad precedent. First it was extra features, like the directors cut, deleted scenes and commentary. Now it's lossless audio? What next? Also, if one studio does it, others may follow. Although lossy BD's are also being distributed to BB and RB, I have filed a complaint with Netflix. One reason being is that they are the largest supplier of BD's, and the other is that they charge extra for it. I believe that they have an obligation when negotiating contracts with distributors like Lionsgate to make it very clear that cutting out features such as lossless audio, (which studio trailers brag is part of the Blu-Ray high def experience) is not in the best interest of their customers. If I own a restaurant, and I find out one my famous deserts caterer is suddenly substituting sugar for high fructose corn syrup, I'm going to be pissed. If you are a Netflix subscriber and you're not happy with this trend, call or send an email and tell them about it.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 11/27/12 at 10:50pm
post #581 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradymartin View Post

late to the party here but a couple of questions so i dont have to read the whole thread. i dont mind netflix titles not having hd audio on blu ray disks. but the video is important to me. is the video on theyre disks inferior or scaled down? also ive read that A LOT of people have problems with their blu ray players cant read the disks because they are either scratched or some other reason. thanks for any help as im considering netflix or just getting a roku box.

No down res that I've ever seen ..

Any rental disk is subject to play issues simply by the fact that it's a rental and multiple folks get it .. not all of which take care of it .. in my years with NF, I've had maybe 2 unplayable disks out of hundreds .. and they have always taken care of me when reported ..
post #582 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

The problem I have with the Lionsgate issue is that it sets a bad precedent. First it was extra features, like the directors cut, deleted scenes and commentary. Now it's lossless audio? What next? Also, if one studio does it, others may follow. Although lossy BD's are also being distributed to BB and RB, I have filed a complaint with Netflix. One reason being is that they are the largest supplier of BD's, and the other is that they charge extra for it. I believe that they have an obligation when negotiating contracts with distributors like Lionsgate to make it very clear that cutting out features such as lossless audio, (which studio trailers brag is part of the Blu-Ray high def experience) is not in the best interest of their customers. If I own a restaurant, and I find out one my famous deserts caterer is suddenly substituting sugar for high fructose corn syrup, I'm going to be pissed. If you are a Netflix subscriber and you're not happy with this trend, call or send an email and tell them about it.
Ian

I contacted them about this issue back when this thread began, but heard nothing back from them.
post #583 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradymartin View Post

late to the party here but a couple of questions so i dont have to read the whole thread. i dont mind netflix titles not having hd audio on blu ray disks. but the video is important to me. is the video on theyre disks inferior or scaled down? also ive read that A LOT of people have problems with their blu ray players cant read the disks because they are either scratched or some other reason. thanks for any help as im considering netflix or just getting a roku box.

Much easier to drop an audio track than to do a full video re-encode just for rental use - would be very surprised if they started messing with the video.

As to scratches - it really depends on your local area. BluRay dics have a special coating that makes them harder to scratch. DVD's could look like a brillo pad was run over them and they would play fine but one small scratch on a BluRay can make it unplayable. The coating helps, but not enough for rental abuse.

With Netflix, I got the occasional scratched disk - had a whole rash of them when the local office had a problem with their equipment and it was scratching the discs while processing them for shipment. With Block Buster I am getting tons of them. A couple of titles required me to ship back and receive about 5 copies before I got one that was usable. Not sure how people are managing to scratch the discs this badly - but they do. The other issue I am starting to run in to with Blockbuster is that everything left in my Queue (over 15 titles) are all on 'wait' status and as far as I can tell they don't ship unless it is available in your normal distribution area. Netflix would ship limited supply discs from anywhere in the country if not available locally.
post #584 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

I contacted them about this issue back when this thread began, but heard nothing back from them.

According to a Neflix rep, this is the time of year when they start negotiations with distributors. The more complaints they get on this subject, the more impact it will have when they sit down at the table.


Ian
post #585 of 933
At the very least I expect a given Blu-ray I rent from Netflix or Redbox to contain the primary HD audio track if also available on the retail version of the disc. I'm paying more per month with Netflix and more per rental with Redbox in order to watch the Blu-ray. I expect the full Blu-ray experience with respects to the feature presentation. That means both HD video AND HD audio. I have absolutely no issues with any and all other features not being included on a rental version of the Blu-ray. If I decide a given rental is worth repeat viewings I'll be able to check out the special features after purchasing the Blu-ray from Amazon. The real issue I have with all of this is the fact that Netflix and Redbox are not disclosing when a given title does not include the HD audio track. They are the ones I'm renting the Blu-ray from. If they expect me to pay more to rent the Blu-ray they should at the very least disclose what audio tracks are included. That way, I can make an informed decision about which title to rent.
post #586 of 933
Go to the "The Hunger Games" page and Netflix clearly states that the Blu-ray has DD 5.1, not a loss less track. So, don't blame Netflix, in this case blame Lionsgate.
post #587 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iolmaster View Post

Go to the "The Hunger Games" page and Netflix clearly states that the Blu-ray has DD 5.1, not a loss less track. So, don't blame Netflix, in this case blame Lionsgate.

Exactly .. although I don't know if RB has any info available in that regard ..

At any rate, as long as the BD meets the standard, no company is actually doing anything wrong ..
post #588 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by iolmaster View Post

Go to the "The Hunger Games" page and Netflix clearly states that the Blu-ray has DD 5.1, not a loss less track. So, don't blame Netflix, in this case blame Lionsgate.

Clearly in the case of the "Hunger Games" Netflix discloses that only the DD 5.1 track is included. That still doesn't invalidate the point I was making. Blame Lionsgate. Fine. Netflix and Redbox are still the companies we are renting these Blu-ray's from. They have a responsibility in my opinion, especially considering the fact they charge more for Blu-ray rentals to call out the audio specs. In the case of Redbox they don't list what audio track is included for any of their titles. And another thing, no one is forcing Netflix and Redbox to purchase gimped versions of a given title on Blu-ray which don't include the primary HD audio track or am I wrong on this? Can't they purchase the retail version of a given disc if they so choose and rent that. If so, then ultimately Netflix and Redbox are responsible for delivering a sub-par Blu-ray experience, not a given studio.
post #589 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Profile View Post

Clearly in the case of the "Hunger Games" Netflix discloses that only the DD 5.1 track is included. That still doesn't invalidate the point I was making. Blame Lionsgate. Fine. Netflix and Redbox are still the companies we are renting these Blu-ray's from. They have a responsibility in my opinion, especially considering the fact they charge more for Blu-ray rentals to call out the audio specs. In the case of Redbox they don't list what audio track is included for any of their titles. And another thing, no one is forcing Netflix and Redbox to purchase gimped versions of a given title on Blu-ray which don't include the primary HD audio track or am I wrong on this? Can't they purchase the retail version of a given disc if they so choose and rent that. If so, then ultimately Netflix and Redbox are responsible for delivering a sub-par Blu-ray experience, not a given studio.

This has really been hashed and re-hashed on this thread and others .. yes, they can buy the retail version / and price accordingly, prompting a price outrage ..

As long as the BD meets the standards, no one is really doing anything wrong here .. and the consumer has the right to take their business elsewhere .. however, if we continue to demand low price rentals, then in this case, we pay the price by loss of a non-essential feature, but we still get a real release date, not a 28 or 56 day window .. .. that's pretty much it in a nutshell ..
post #590 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

This has really been hashed and re-hashed on this thread and others .. yes, they can buy the retail version / and price accordingly, prompting a price outrage ..
As long as the BD meets the standards, no one is really doing anything wrong here .. and the consumer has the right to take their business elsewhere .. however, if we continue to demand low price rentals, then in this case, we pay the price by loss of a non-essential feature, but we still get a real release date, not a 28 or 56 day window .. .. that's pretty much it in a nutshell ..

I find your reply to be full of conjecture at best. How do you know Netflix and Redbox can't afford to offer a version of a given Blu-ray which includes the primary HD audio track while at the same time not increasing the price of their Blu-ray rentals? How do you know that if Netflix and Redbox did increase prices to ensure the HD audio track is always included that there would be some sort of price outrage? Do you speak for everyone that rents Blu-ray's from Netflix and Redbox? I'd be willing to pay a little bit more if along with the increased price a version of the Blu-ray title always includes the primary HD audio track. It would still be far and away cheaper than purchasing the retail version of the given Blu-ray which I simply won't do unless I determine it offers replay value first. And who is demanding low price rentals? Demanding ... really? And what would still be considered low price? I guess it all depends on who you ask. And what does "meeting the BD standards" mean? Is there somewhere I can go where it defines what that is? It's not unreasonable to expect at the very least for a given Blu-ray rental to include the feature presentation with the primary HD audio track included, especially considering the fact we have to pay a premium to rent the given Blu-ray. We pay a price by loss of a non-essential feature in return for a real release date? Silly me for considering the primary HD audio track to be an essential part of the Blu-ray experience not to mention I don't agree you have a basis for stating such a tradeoff is being made to begin with. I also don't have any issue by the way with Netflix and Redbox not making a given Blu-ray available for rent the same day as the retail release date. Who do the studios think they are kidding by imposing these restrictions on Netflix and Redbox? What, so I have to wait a few weeks to rent a given title. Oh that's right. The world is going to come to an end if I have to wait a few weeks, so let me go out and purchase the retail version for $15 or more rather than wait a few weeks to rent the title for a buck or two. What exactly is the urgency for anyone to have to be able to rent a given Blu-ray title the same day that it's available to purchase in retail. There is none. And yes, maybe this topic has been hashed and re-hashed, but I've only just joined the discussion yesterday and at least my replies have been sound and reasoned while at the same time not attempting to speak for others. I've also spoken my mind to both Netflix and Redbox on this matter and would encourage others to do the same if they feel so inclined.
post #591 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Profile View Post

I find your reply to be full of conjecture at best. How do you know Netflix and Redbox can't afford to offer a version of a given Blu-ray which includes the primary HD audio track while at the same time not increasing the price of their Blu-ray rentals? How do you know that if Netflix and Redbox did increase prices to ensure the HD audio track is always included that there would be some sort of price outrage? Do you speak for everyone that rents Blu-ray's from Netflix and Redbox? I'd be willing to pay a little bit more if along with the increased price a version of the Blu-ray title always includes the primary HD audio track. It would still be far and away cheaper than purchasing the retail version of the given Blu-ray which I simply won't do unless I determine it offers replay value first. And who is demanding low price rentals? Demanding ... really? And what would still be considered low price? I guess it all depends on who you ask. And what does "meeting the BD standards" mean? Is there somewhere I can go where it defines what that is? It's not unreasonable to expect at the very least for a given Blu-ray rental to include the feature presentation with the primary HD audio track included, especially considering the fact we have to pay a premium to rent the given Blu-ray. We pay a price by loss of a non-essential feature in return for a real release date? Silly me for considering the primary HD audio track to be an essential part of the Blu-ray experience not to mention I don't agree you have a basis for stating such a tradeoff is being made to begin with. I also don't have any issue by the way with Netflix and Redbox not making a given Blu-ray available for rent the same day as the retail release date. Who do the studios think they are kidding by imposing these restrictions on Netflix and Redbox? What, so I have to wait a few weeks to rent a given title. Oh that's right. The world is going to come to an end if I have to wait a few weeks, so let me go out and purchase the retail version for $15 or more rather than wait a few weeks to rent the title for a buck or two. What exactly is the urgency for anyone to have to be able to rent a given Blu-ray title the same day that it's available to purchase in retail. There is none. And yes, maybe this topic has been hashed and re-hashed, but I've only just joined the discussion yesterday and at least my replies have been sound and reasoned while at the same time not attempting to speak for others. I've also spoken my mind to both Netflix and Redbox on this matter and would encourage others to do the same if they feel so inclined.

.. you have the right to use the services or not .. the purpose of a thread is to compile information over a period of time .. the standards for BD are posted on this thread ..

Many, many BD's don't have an HD track .. Lionsgate can do what they want with their catalog .. and we can rent them or not ..

You'll find that the vast majority of the renting public neither knows nor cares ..

It's a simple equation .. Lionsgate wants to add value for folks that buy a BD .. thus attempting to boost sales .. NF / RB wants the cheapest possible cost per disc .. thus, a non-essential feature that most don't really care about that much anyway goes away .. the renting consumer benefits by lower cost .. the studio can trumpet it's retail version .. none of this is conjecture .. it's Business .. I've been a Businessman with various owned companies for over 35 years .. I also am a stockholder in NF ..


With BD sales no where near the cash cow expected, it is not surprising these kind of things take place .. first the window of release, now this .. and we will continue to see further experimentation ..
post #592 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

.. you have the right to use the services or not .. the purpose of a thread is to compile information over a period of time .. the standards for BD are posted on this thread ..
Many, many BD's don't have an HD track .. Lionsgate can do what they want with their catalog .. and we can rent them or not ..
You'll find that the vast majority of the renting public neither knows nor cares ..
It's a simple equation .. Lionsgate wants to add value for folks that buy a BD .. thus attempting to boost sales .. NF / RB wants the cheapest possible cost per disc .. thus, a non-essential feature that most don't really care about that much anyway goes away .. the renting consumer benefits by lower cost .. the studio can trumpet it's retail version .. none of this is conjecture .. it's Business .. I've been a Businessman with various owned companies for over 35 years .. I also am a stockholder in NF ..
With BD sales no where near the cash cow expected, it is not surprising these kind of things take place .. first the window of release, now this .. and we will continue to see further experimentation ..

You make a good point. However, like I posted before, the studio's have always promoted the BD experience as a format that offers both better video AND sound quality. I can understand not including all the extral features that you'll never see in the theater or pay per view, but not including the HD audio in rentals, and the full Blu-Ray quality experience, is just being petty. BD's sales are actually up slightly, but it's mainly because DVD sales are down. More people are now investing in HD. According to the Hollywood Reporter, rentals continue to slip dramatically, dropping over 40% this year and it's not because people are running to their local retail stores or Amazon to buy BD's. They're going to Amazon and Neflix in droves to stream, which showed a whopping 550% increase. Stripping down rentals is not helping BD sales, if anything it's driving more people to inexpensive subscription streaming, that now offers Dolby Digital Plus audio and improved HD picture quality.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 12/5/12 at 2:19pm
post #593 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

You make a good point. However, like I posted before, the studio's have always promoted the BD experience as a format that offers both better video AND sound quality. I can understand not including all the extral features that you'll never see in the theater or pay per view, but not including the HD audio in rentals, and the full Blu-Ray quality experience, is just being petty. BD's sales are actually up slightly, but it's mainly because DVD sales are down. More people are now investing in HD. According to the Hollywood Reporter, rentals continue to slip dramatically, dropping over 40% this year and it's not because people are running to their local retail stores or Amazon to buy BD's. They're going to Amazon and Neflix in droves to stream, which showed a whopping 550% increase. Stripping down rentals is not helping BD sales, if anything it's driving more people to inexpensive subscription streaming, that now offers Dolby Digial plus audio and improved HD picture quality.
Ian

Yes, the thing is, however, streaming growth, which will continue, makes the point clear and drives home the fact that the vast majority of the population could care less about state of the art PQ and SQ .. they will gladly sacrifice quality for convienience and low cost .. .. and as I said, that's why Lionsgate decided to experiment with the rental model .. knowing full well that it would not effect rental disk sales to RB or NF .. but it might (and it's a big might) .. drive a few more retail sales

I don't like it any more than the next guy that spent 20K plus on his home theater .. but, at some point in the future, the cloud will be the primary source and physical media will become a niche market ..

Ultimately, I believe the studios want the PPV / Streaming Catalog Model to be the primary source .. it allows them to control cost / profit / and distribution .. and that's the ultimate goal of any business ..
post #594 of 933
Also, Netflix gets it's biggest discounts from select studios, by agreeing to the extra wait time after discs are released.


Ian
post #595 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Also, Netflix gets it's biggest discounts from select studios, by agreeing to the extra wait time after discs are released.
Ian

And we've speculated that the DD track instead of HD may be one reason Lionsgate has not imposed a wait yet .. a trade off IOW ..
post #596 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I don't like it any more than the next guy that spent 20K plus on his home theater .. but, at some point in the future, the cloud will be the primary source and physical media will become a niche market ..
..


If it hasn't already. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

And we've speculated that the DD track instead of HD may be one reason Lionsgate has not imposed a wait yet .. a trade off IOW ..


I doubt it. It's becoming a trend. Someone on the subwoofer forum claims he rented Snow White And The Huntsman from Netflix, which is a Universal release (28 day delay) and it was only available in lossy DD:


Blu-ray details

Length
127 minutes
Subtitles
English SDH, French, Spanish (Neutral)
Language and sound
English: Dolby Digital 7.1 Spanish (Neutral): Dolby Digital 5.1 French: Dolby Digital 5.1 English DVS: Dolby Digital 5.1
Other features
Color; interactive menus; scene access.



The retail version is in DTS MA.





Ian
Edited by mailiang - 12/5/12 at 4:18pm
post #597 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post


I doubt it. It's becoming a trend. Someone on the subwoofer forum claims he rented Snow White And The Huntsman from Netflix, which is a Universal release (28 day delay) and it was only available in lossy DD:
Blu-ray details
Length
127 minutes
Subtitles
English SDH, French, Spanish (Neutral)
Language and sound
English: Dolby Digital 7.1 Spanish (Neutral): Dolby Digital 5.1 French: Dolby Digital 5.1 English DVS: Dolby Digital 5.1
Other features
Color; interactive menus; scene access.
The retail version is in DTS MA.
Ian
1. That person is full of it.
2. You can't do 7.1 with DD.
3. The audio on Snow White and the Huntsman from Netflix is DTS-HD MA 7.1.
post #598 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

1. That person is full of it.
2. You can't do 7.1 with DD.
3. The audio on Snow White and the Huntsman from Netflix is DTS-HD MA 7.1.

Your right, I better get my glasses checked! biggrin.gif I rented my copy from BB. Are you sure it's not in 5.1 DD? confused.gif Please advise. I wouldn't want to be picking on Universal Studios just yet! biggrin.gif



Ian
post #599 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Your right, I better get my glasses checked! biggrin.gif I rented my copy from BB. Are you sure it's not in 5.1 DD? confused.gif Please advise. I wouldn't want to be picking on Universal Studios just yet! biggrin.gif
Ian
You ask me to "please advise" when I just told you the answer. It's in the part you quoted.

Once again, the audio on Snow White and the Huntsman from Netflix is DTS-HD MA 7.1. The disc is a rental disc, which means you only get the theatrical (PG-13) version, but rest assured it has the lossless track. I have the disc in my possession and checked it before my first response to make sure I wasn't crazy.
post #600 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

You ask me to "please advise" when I just told you the answer. It's in the part you quoted.
Once again, the audio on Snow White and the Huntsman from Netflix is DTS-HD MA 7.1. The disc is a rental disc, which means you only get the theatrical (PG-13) version, but rest assured it has the lossless track. I have the disc in my possession and checked it before my first response to make sure I wasn't crazy.
eek.gif

I got it. Just needed you to confirm that you have the disc.


Ian
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