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NetFlix RedBox BD's Without DTS-HD Master Audio / DD 5.1 Instead - Page 21

post #601 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

You make a good point. However, like I posted before, the studio's have always promoted the BD experience as a format that offers both better video AND sound quality..................

The sound quality can be better even when it's Dolby Digital since the max Dolby Digital bitrate for a BD is higher than the max Dolby Digital bitrate for a DVD. So they are still delivering better sound quality along with the better video quality.
post #602 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

The sound quality can be better even when it's Dolby Digital since the max Dolby Digital bitrate for a BD is higher than the max Dolby Digital bitrate for a DVD. So they are still delivering better sound quality along with the better video quality.


True, I drew the same conclusions in an article I wrote for Helium some time ago about BD players with multi channel analog outputs and how they may not be worth considering for lossless audio, due to bass management issues. But I do believe that on some sound tracks there is a noticeable difference in terms of depth and clarity between standard DD and lossless, even with the slightly higher bit rate of BD's. I have also found that the difference between Dolby Digital Plus and True HD is much more subtle, at least to me. Regardless, my point was that Lionsgate's policy will probably have little impact on their retail sales of BD's.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 12/5/12 at 9:17pm
post #603 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

True, I drew the same conclusions in an article I wrote for Helium some time ago about BD players with multi channel analog audio outputs and why I thought they weren't really necessary in terms of better sound quality from movies. But I do believe that on some sound tracks, there is a noticeable difference in terms of depth and clarity between standard DD and lossless, even with the slightly higher bit rate of BD's. However, the differance between Dolby Digital Plus and True HD seems more subtle, at least to me. Regardless, my whole point was that Lionsgate's policy is petty and will probably have little impact on retail sales of BD's.
Ian
Based on what I've read from Roger Dressler, the difference between DD @448 vs @640kbps is greater than the difference between DD @640kbps and Dolby TrueHD (lossless.)
post #604 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Based on what I've read from Roger Dressler, the difference between DD @448 vs @640kbps is greater than the difference between DD @640kbps and Dolby TrueHD (lossless.)

In reference to what? His ears or his Dolby stats? David Birch-Jones and Home Entertainment editor-in-chief, Geoff Morrison, visited both Dolby Laboratories and DTS' headquarters to compare all the different formats. If I recall correctly, they found the biggest differences in their listening tests between the standard bare bones variety and the lossless tracks, which makes sense due to greater differences in the data compression rates. Even so, they were more subtle then they ever expected and therefore very subjective.. I believe Dolby Digital Plus maxes out at about 1.5mps, significantly higher then DD Blu-Ray.



Ian.
Edited by mailiang - 12/5/12 at 10:10pm
post #605 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

In reference to what? His ears or his Dolby stats? David Birch-Jones and Home Entertainment editor-in-chief, Geoff Morrison, visited Dolby Laboratories and DTS' headquarters to compare all the different formats. If I recall correctly, they found the biggest differences in their listening tests between the standard bare bones variety and the lossless tracks, which makes sense due to greater differences in the data compression rates. Even so, they were more subtle then they ever expected. I believe Dolby Digital Plus maxes out at about 1.5mps, significantly higher then DD Blu-Ray.
Ian.

Except throwing more bitrate at Dolby Plus is a waste. DD+ was designed for ultra-low bitrates (lower than normal DD) and overcoming the 5.1 channel limitation. The 1.5Mbps on HD DVDs were only for marketing purposes: there was no additional audible information added once the bitrate passed 640kbps. That's why Warner didn't bother with it.
post #606 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

Except throwing more bitrate at Dolby Plus is a waste. DD+ was designed for ultra-low bitrates (lower than normal DD) and overcoming the 5.1 channel limitation. The 1.5Mbps on HD DVDs were only for marketing purposes: there was no additional audible information added once the bitrate passed 640kbps. That's why Warner didn't bother with it.

When comparing DD plus streaming to standard DD satellite, (same programing) I've found plus to be more detailed in terms of imaging and more lossless like. I have never been able to compare it directly to DD Blue-Ray or DTS MA. I can only go by Jone's and Morrison's listening tests.



Ian
post #607 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

When comparing DD plus streaming to standard DD satellite, (same programing) I've found plus to be more detailed in terms of imaging and more lossless like. I have never been able to compare it directly to DD Blue-Ray or DTS MA. I can only go by Jone's and Morrison's listening tests.
Ian

It's not an apples to apples comparison since the bitrates are often different and companies add things like dynamic compression and other processing to their signals.
post #608 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX View Post

It's not an apples to apples comparison since the bitrates are often different and companies add things like dynamic compression and other processing to their signals.

Then I guess Netflix is doing a better job with it then DTV. And it cost less! biggrin.gif Still you can't convince me that there isn't a difference between lossy DD and DTS MA, on many of today's Blu-Ray audio tracks.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 12/5/12 at 10:47pm
post #609 of 929
The DD+ on The Expendables2 that I rented from NF was really, really good, IMO. Yes, I'm ticked about them degrading it from lossless, but I was honestly surprised at how good it sounded. I will say that now days when I watch a DVD with plain DD, it does seem like there is just something missing to the quality of the sound.
post #610 of 929

I just rented Expendables2 from NF, and was very disappointed with DD track compared to other action movies with DTS MA.  I'm no audiophile, in fact I listen to no music on my system, only movies and hdtv.  I do have 6 tower speakers for fronts/surrounds/surrond backs, and have recently put in a 11.2 system with DTS NeoX denon avr.  To my ears the DD track sounded like typical HDTV, with more deep bass, but the clarity and detail of sound was sorely missing.  I had no idea the rental outfits were getting lossy discs.  I just noticed that the new Spiderman on NF for it's BR states the soundtrack is DD 5.1, I thought only Lionsgate was doing this and isn't this a Sony studio release? or are they doing it also?

post #611 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I just rented Expendables2 from NF, and was very disappointed with DD track compared to other action movies with DTS MA.  I'm no audiophile, in fact I listen to no music on my system, only movies and hdtv.  I do have 6 tower speakers for fronts/surrounds/surrond backs, and have recently put in a 11.2 system with DTS NeoX denon avr.  To my ears the DD track sounded like typical HDTV, with more deep bass, but the clarity and detail of sound was sorely missing.  I had no idea the rental outfits were getting lossy discs.  I just noticed that the new Spiderman on NF for it's BR states the soundtrack is DD 5.1, I thought only Lionsgate was doing this and isn't this a Sony studio release? or are they doing it also?

I also noticed my copy of Expendables 2 from NF was DD, but at 640Kbps. I thought the sound was pretty good, didn't notice any problems with clarity.
post #612 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtrot View Post

I also noticed my copy of Expendables 2 from NF was DD, but at 640Kbps. I thought the sound was pretty good, didn't notice any problems with clarity.

My rental copy of EX 2 was DD and still quite clear and enjoyable ..
post #613 of 929

For anyone interested, I just rented the new Spiderman BR from Redbox, and although the NF site states the BR only has DD 5.1, the Redbox has the DTS MA.  Maybe the NF does also but just entered incorrectly. 

post #614 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post


My rental copy of EX 2 was DD and still quite clear and enjoyable ..

I probably used the wrong desriptors regarding clarity. Perhaps sonic detail that I notice on lossless tracks vs the typical DD is what I perceived that was less present.  Of course the only true way of determining this is to listen to the same soundtrack in DD and DTS MA.  I really enjoyed the movie since I like all the actors and over the top these fantasy action movies offer.  But before anyone flames for me using the word actor referring to Stallone, Jet Li, et.al, please understand, I like Kung Fu theater too smile.gif

post #615 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

I probably used the wrong desriptors regarding clarity. Perhaps sonic detail that I notice on lossless tracks vs the typical DD is what I perceived that was less present.  Of course the only true way of determining this is to listen to the same soundtrack in DD and DTS MA.  I really enjoyed the movie since I like all the actors and over the top these fantasy action movies offer.  But before anyone flames for me using the word actor referring to Stallone, Jet Li, et.al, please understand, I like Kung Fu theater too smile.gif

Nothing wrong with those likes .. as cheesy as EX One and Two were, they were both great popcorn films ..

I don't run state of the art gear, but it's close .. and that helps SQ .. I'm likely in the minority in that I'm not surprised when a studio dumbs down a rental version ..
post #616 of 929
Some good news! biggrin.gif

I just watched my copy of Arbitrage from NF, and it's a Lionsgate release, but it did have the DTS-HD 5.1 audio on it!

Maybe Lionsgate has stopped with the exclusion of HD audio from their rentals? Or maybe this was such a weak title they figured it wasn't worth messing with? Either way, I was very happy to see this, and HEAR it. . biggrin.gif
post #617 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Some good news! biggrin.gif
I just watched my copy of Arbitrage from NF, and it's a Lionsgate release, but it did have the DTS-HD 5.1 audio on it!
Maybe Lionsgate has stopped with the exclusion of HD audio from their rentals? Or maybe this was such a weak title they figured it wasn't worth messing with? Either way, I was very happy to see this, and HEAR it. . biggrin.gif


Ditto. Maybe they just ran out of rental discs. Only time will tell.



Ian
post #618 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Some good news! biggrin.gif
I just watched my copy of Arbitrage from NF, and it's a Lionsgate release, but it did have the DTS-HD 5.1 audio on it!
Maybe Lionsgate has stopped with the exclusion of HD audio from their rentals? Or maybe this was such a weak title they figured it wasn't worth messing with? Either way, I was very happy to see this, and HEAR it. . biggrin.gif
I suspect it was the latter...

They seem to be taking aim at what they feel are high demand titles so far.
post #619 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I suspect it was the latter...
They seem to be taking aim at what they feel are high demand titles so far.

If there is a pattern, then that's it ..
post #620 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I suspect it was the latter...
They seem to be taking aim at what they feel are high demand titles so far.
This. Arbitrage didn't even pull in $8 million domestically. It was a flop and it's not worth their time to press separate discs for a title that so few will ever see.

Clearly Arbitrage is no Hunger Games or Expendables 2.
post #621 of 929
Thread Starter 
Just a guess, but Arbitrage was not produced by Lionsgate .. whereas I believe Hunger Games and Expendables 2 were ..

Arbitrage was simply distributed by Liosngate ..
post #622 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

This. Arbitrage didn't even pull in $8 million domestically. It was a flop and it's not worth their time to press separate discs for a title that so few will ever see.
Clearly Arbitrage is no Hunger Games or Expendables 2.


Although it wasn't any block buster, Gere's performance in this film was nominated for a Golden Globe award. You can't compare Arbitrage to the Expendables, (all action and little acting) which is a totally different genre and like Hunger Games caters to a much wider audience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Just a guess, but Arbitrage was not produced by Lionsgate .. whereas I believe Hunger Games and Expendables 2 were ..
Arbitrage was simply distributed by Liosngate ..


Interesting point.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/5/13 at 2:52pm
post #623 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I hate to burst your bubble, although it wasn't any block buster, Gere's performance in this film was nominated for a Golden Globe award. You can't compare Arbitrage to the Expendables, (all action and no acting) totally different genre which caters to a smaller audience.
Ian

I think the whole idea is Arbitrage is not really considered a want to own title ..

I am planning on renting it, everything looks like it would be appealing .. but, I'm not going to buy it and I don't care what the audio encode is ..
post #624 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Although it wasn't any block buster, Gere's performance in this film was nominated for a Golden Globe award. You can't compare Arbitrage to the Expendables, (all action and little acting) which is a totally different genre and like Hunger Games caters to a much wider audience.
Ian
Clearly I was referring to the box office take/potential for profitable sales of the films, not the quality. rolleyes.gif

Expendables 2 and The Hunger Games are big money releases for Lionsgate, Arbitrage is not. It's all about money, just like the decision to leave lossless audio off of select rental versions was all about money. It's just that simple. Suggesting that it's something along the lines of Lionsgate "running out of rental discs" is simply laughable.

Note that this has nothing to do with the quality or relative worth of any of the three films mentioned - it's simple economics and common sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Just a guess, but Arbitrage was not produced by Lionsgate .. whereas I believe Hunger Games and Expendables 2 were ..
Arbitrage was simply distributed by Liosngate ..

Now that may have something to do with it. I still think it's more a matter of it not being worth the expense of a second pressing for a title with so little demand.
Edited by Steeb - 1/5/13 at 3:11pm
post #625 of 929
Its to stop ex rental sales, plain and very simple
post #626 of 929
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Clearly I was referring to the box office take/potential for profitable sales of the films, not the quality

Then I guess your use of the word flop, was misread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Suggesting that it's something along the lines of Lionsgate "running out of rental discs" is simply laughable.

Laughable? You have consistently shown on this forum that you have the uncanny ability to be tactless. Block Buster has been mailiang some non rental BD's on occasion. I recently received a directer's cut copy of Killer Joe, which is distributed by Lionsgate and was suggesting that maybe Netflix was doing the same.

Like I posted to you previously on another thread, If you refuse to air your differences with me in a creative and respectful manner, I will be more then happy to flag you and put you on my ignore list. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

I still think it's more a matter of it not being worth the expense of a second pressing for a title with so little demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Its to stop ex rental sales, plain and very simple

Regardless, it may be that only the bigger titles are being produced for rental only. Just have to see if that's the trend.


Ian

Edited by mailiang - 1/5/13 at 4:50pm
post #627 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Its to stop ex rental sales, plain and very simple

Somehow I don't think the people lining up to buy the scratched up and abused ex-rentals really care if they are missing the full HD soundtrack. I still don't see how this is going to do ANYTHING measurable except annoy people like us.
post #628 of 929
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

Somehow I don't think the people lining up to buy the scratched up and abused ex-rentals really care if they are missing the full HD soundtrack. I still don't see how this is going to do ANYTHING measurable except annoy people like us.

The key part of your post is "do ANYTHING measurable except annoy people like us" .. because the rest don't care and simply want a cheap rental ..
post #629 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Then I guess your use of the word flop, was misread.
It wasn't misread, you just apparently don't know what the word "flop" means. The movie was a commercial failure. Acknowledging that says nothing of the quality of the movie, just that it didn't make very much money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang 
Laughable? You have consistently shown on this forum that you have the uncanny ability to be tactless. Block Buster has been mailiang some non rental BD's on occasion. I recently received a directer's cut copy of Killer Joe, which is distributed by Lionsgate and was suggesting that maybe Netflix was doing the same.

Like I posted to you previously on another thread, If you refuse to air your differences with me in a creative and respectful manner, I will be more then happy to flag you and put you on my ignore list.
Your entire response to me in post# 622 was based on your lack of understanding of my post, plain and simple. You engaged me in this conversation, not the other way around, remember? I couldn't care less if you put me on ignore, so you can stop with the "threats" any time.

"Hate to burst your bubble" indeed... rolleyes.gif
post #630 of 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

It wasn't misread, you just apparently don't know what the word "flop" means. The movie was a commercial failure. Acknowledging that says nothing of the quality of the movie, just that it didn't make very much money.

Commercial failure, flop, whatever, it was a decent movie and it received a nomination and a few awards. My intent was not to argue semantics with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Your entire response to me in post# 622 was based on your lack of understanding of my post, plain and simple. You engaged me in this conversation, not the other way around, remember? I couldn't care less if you put me on ignore, so you can stop with the "threats" any time.
"Hate to burst your bubble" indeed... rolleyes.gif
rolleyes.gif


Adding you to my ignore list was never a threat. It's a relief from reading confrontational posts like yours that will never impress me or anyone else. When you want to share a difference of opinion, or clarify a point, constructive criticism will have a lot more more impact then snide remarks like laughable. I'm happy to block your comments and you can do the same. Enough said.


Ian wink.gif
Edited by mailiang - 1/5/13 at 11:29pm
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