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Total Recall 2012 - Page 9

post #241 of 338
Sony 790 – From player crossbar, go to:

1.Setup
2.Audio Setting
3.BD Audio Mix Setting
4.Change to On

This setting works. Audio (HDMI) is back to Auto, and playing BitStream with no Drop Outs.

Wrong! BD Audio Mix Setting On, sends out LPCM, not Bitstream!

Forum Member mentioned unplugging my Sony BDP-S790 for 10 minutes and re-initializing. Worked with no audio dropouts for 10 minutes, then went back to having dropouts.
Edited by p5browne - 3/10/13 at 8:57pm
post #242 of 338
2+ months and still no acceptable solution from Sony?!?!? Just allow a damn exchange for a properly encoded Blu-Ray or give an option for a return/exchange for something else? Smells like a class action suit to me!
post #243 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Brand new model Sony BDP-S5100 bluray player, not even available in the US yet,
just installed and updated to the latest firmware today.

Set to bitstream Dolby TrueHD to my Yamaha RX-V3900,
Loaded Directors Cut Total Recall and made it about half way through without issue...then it went to crap.
I hit the apartment scene (the one with the Piano) where I had 4 audio drops in a row, within about 5 minutes.

Shut it off....

**Update**

Picked up where I left off last night, replayed chapter 9 where the drops occurred, all were repeatable,
But the good news is after that the rest of the movie played perfectly (yes bit streamed) right to the end, including the closing credits.
Never any sync issues either. So I guess I'm okay with that. Chapter 9 was a pretty short one, and the drops were very small/quick.

Only one of the drops right at the start of ch9 showed a loss of signal on the AVR.
The other three were just like a fraction of a second where all sound seemed to be missing...no flicker in the AVR input signal indicator lights.

I replayed chapter 9 again in pcm mode just to see if I missed it the first time, ( on my PS3)
Now that I know what to listen for and exactly when....There was no hint of a drop skip or stutter in the audio.

No issues at all bit streaming TrueHD 7.1 from Brave or Finding Nemo
Guess the new BDP-S5100 is a keeper.
Edited by PioManiac - 3/6/13 at 8:00pm
post #244 of 338
Sony no longer replying to my e-mails. I assume all purchasers are now getting the Finger, and if you want to play without the Audio Dropouts, don't use Bitstream, or in my case, put the older BDP-S5000 back into place, to play these problem Blu-rays. What is Sony, and other Manufacturer's hiding that they've put into place that current state top of the line players can't play Bitstream, yet cheaper and older models do?

Experiment with Sony BDP-S790, BDP-S5000 and OPPO 93: Viewed Total Recall Chapter 8, then into Chapter 9. Definitely a Disc Problem on Chapter 9! Audio drop out at the very beginning on all 3 Players, for Auto, 1080P and 1080I. The 5000 actually freezes the whole picture as they go through the opening sequence doorway. Had to hit advance 30s to unfreeze. 790 and OPPO had further dropouts during Chapter 9 in both 1080P and 1080i. 5000 had no further dropouts for the Chapter. 8' quality HDMI Cable used on the OPPO and 5000. 6' quality HDMI cable on the 790. All cables feed into the Radiance XE-3D.
Edited by p5browne - 3/12/13 at 9:29pm
post #245 of 338
I wonder if the bad reviews and under-performing sales of Total Recall (2012) have anything to do with the non-interest by Sony to address this issue? I experienced similar Dolby TrueHD dropouts from Disney's "Brave". Brave is a well-reviewed and good-selling bluray. I presume both discs suffer from the same "enhanced" encryption that is adversely affecting Dolby TrueHD sound. I rented both of these films from Netflix and made Netflix aware of the issue, but to my knowledge Netflix has made no public comment.

My equipment:
Samsung BD300
Denon A100 AVR

Both have the latest firmware (but neither have a recent update available from the manufacturer).
post #246 of 338
Reply from Sony: any Blu-ray player not connected directly to the TV, but instead to AVRs, VQs, etc, must be set to LCPM or PCM to avoid dropouts. Will connect directly to the TV tonight to test. Excellent test area is the Chapter 8 to 9. Very beginning of 9 is the dropout as he unlocks the door.
post #247 of 338
Televisions are natively PCM audio devices (I've never heard of an exception, but it's a big world). HDMI is smart enough to send only LPCM to the TV regardless of your player setting; it shouldn't be possible to override this.

-Bill
post #248 of 338
Thankyou for your reply:

Tonight's tests - OPPO, 790 and 5000, each in turn connected to the 1 HDMI Input on my LG 55LHX, exibited no audio dropouts on the Chapter 8 through 9. The 5000 did not have the freezing problem in the opening sequence of Chapter 9 as they went through the doorways. Unfortunately, the listening to TV Speakers only (No Audio Outputs on the LG 55LHX without it's Media Box, and I definitely refuse to use the MB due to it being detrimental to the PQ Quality.) is definitely not the way I want to listen to my system.
Because of it's 125 Point Calibration properties, plus 6 HDMI Inputs on my Lumagen Radiance XE-3D, I much prefer to use it instead. This is an expensive piece of equipment, and I would prefer to get the more Dynamic Range of Bitstream throughput, not LPCM. Also prefer not to have to go into the settings to downgrade to LPCM everytime I have a Dolby True HD Blu-ray that won't play correctly. Hopefully the FW issue will be corrected in the near future. It would be far cheaper then re-issuing us all New Blu-rays, Plus sales of the Dolby True HD would greatly increase, without all those returns, and negative publicity that curtail the sales of these products.


> Subject: RE: Total Recall Blu-ray Audio Issues
> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:19:39 -0500
> From: Consumer@SPHECustomerSupport.Sony.com
>
> Dear p5browne,
>
> This Audio issue only occurs if the Blu-ray player is hooked up to an audio receiver or a home theater system. If the Blu-ray player is connected directly to the TV or the Blu-ray player, there should be no issue. SPHE is working with manufacturers on a possible firmware upgrade solution, but the issue can be resolved through a simple fix by changing the settings as outlined below.
>
> PS3 Slim
>
> From PS3 crossbar, go to:
>
> 1. Settings
>
> 2. Video Settings
>
> 3. BD/DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI)
>
> 4. Change to Linear PCM
>
> Sony BDP-S360 / Sony BDP-S460 / Sony BDP-S560
>
> From player crossbar, go to:
>
> 1. Setup
>
> 2. Audio Settings
>
> 3. BD Audio Setting
>
> 4. Change to Mix
>
> Sony 790
>
> From player crossbar, go to:
>
> 1. Setup
>
> 2. Audio Setting
>
> 3. BD Audio Mix Setting
>
> 4. Change to On
>
> Oppo BDP-83 / Oppo BDP-93
>
> 1. Goto Setup
>
> 2. Audio Format Setup
>
> 3. HDMI Audio
>
> 4. Select LPCM
post #249 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Televisions are natively PCM audio devices (I've never heard of an exception, but it's a big world). HDMI is smart enough to send only LPCM to the TV regardless of your player setting; it shouldn't be possible to override this.

-Bill

Thanks for that interesting info Bill. Whether it's common knowledge or not I don't know because being new to HD I'm not up on most of the common knowledge.

Al
post #250 of 338

I'm not trying to defend Sony,

But I am curious why so many say PCM is a "down grade" from TrueHD or dts-HD???


Edited by PioManiac - 3/14/13 at 6:18am
post #251 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

I'm not trying to defend Sony,
But I am curious why so many say PCM is a "down grade" from TrueHD or dts-HD???

No, you're right. The results are identical: you decode in the player or in the receiver. The same audio results. Isn't there Dolby and DTS certification to ensure this?

It's possible the receiver may have processing options that work only one way or the other, but that is an extra effect.

-Bill
post #252 of 338

All masters start as PCM lossless tracks and TrueHD/dts-HD are lossless compressions of that track

(used to free up disc space for extras and bonus material),

But once decoded (in player or receiver)...would be right back to where it started, as PCM.

 

I've tried both and even though Bit Streammed plays slightly louder, when level matched (SPL meter) there is no noticeable difference in quality.

It's all digital , 1's and 0's. You'd have to have a pretty outdated low end AVR if PCM wont play properly on your system.

 

What are you guys doing on disc's that offer PCM as the only lossless choice? Switch to core DD 5.1 so you can bit stream a lossy audio track?

....just a quick browse of my collection, many early BD releases like the Fifth Element (2007), Casino Royale (2006 release), Pirates of the Caribbean series, (first three original releases)

all had PCM as the only lossless choice...no? I'm sure there many more but these seemed the most popular off the top of my head and find it hard to believe they caused anyone hardship LOL!

 

 

If I'm wrong please provide a more detailed explanation...or provide a list of incompatible equipment that can't play PCM.

There certainly wasn't a flood of peeps bitching about PCM being a problem before AVR companies started putting little TrueHD/dts-HD logo lights on their receivers.

 

 

I have 4 HDMI devices that can only play PCM, (new Sony BDP-S5100 is my only Bit Stream player)

Motorola HD PVR cable box, Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD, XBOX360 Premium, and Fat PS3

 

all have played PCM since 06', on several models of Yamaha AVR's (RX-V661,RX-V1800 and my current RX-V3900)

Displays: Pioneer Kuro plasma/Epson 1080UB Projector


Edited by PioManiac - 3/14/13 at 7:09am
post #253 of 338
^^^This seems to say that whether the player is doing the decoding or the processor does this, there is no audible distinction (leaving aside level matching). That would not match my experience. Even different processors on the same quality par sound distinctly different, let alone a cheap player match top quality components.

But in any event, the issue with these discs is that they are defective -- one of the features they intend to provide fails on a good deal of, if not most, equipment. In my view, no amount of trying to interest gear manufacturers in firmware updates for this one disc shifts the responsibility from SONY. At the very least their engineers should devise that firmware correction for ALL players, then pass it along for free. But even that is a dodge. I assume at some point they will have to yield and reissue this release, in which case you might be stuck double dipping if they provide no trade-in -- something which does not seem that far-fetched if they cannot even acknowledge the disc is fatally flawed as is -- why not just turn around and say any reissue has nothing to do with audio glitches, and if you kept the first one, must mean you had no problem with it?

My way of applying pressure is just to keep ordering it and returning it -- eventually I assume the disc will quietly become one that works, even if that takes years.
post #254 of 338
Unfortunately, this isn't the only release that is using Dolby TrueHd having drop outs. Brave, & Finding Nemo are also.
post #255 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by osu fan View Post

Unfortunately, this isn't the only release that is using Dolby TrueHd having drop outs. Brave, & Finding Nemo are also.



I have rented Brave and experienced NO DROPOUTS. I then purchased Finding Nemo and experienced NO DROPOUTS! Oppo BDP-105. I know not all players are experiencing dropouts with the aforementioned discs.
post #256 of 338
I too have Brave and Finding Nemo as well, but have not had any audio dropouts playing Dolby TrueHD on the Oppo BDP-93
post #257 of 338
Finding Nemo and Brave played TrueHD without issue for me too.
Bit streamed from a new Sony BDP-S5100 to my Yamaha RX-V3900.
post #258 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

Finding Nemo and Brave played TrueHD without issue for me too.
Bit streamed from a new Sony BDP-S5100 to my Yamaha RX-V3900.

BDP-S5100 Firmware was updated in February of this Year. The rest of the Sony's haven't been updated since before Christmas, 6 months ago! So far only promises that they're working on it.
I see no mention on how the 5100 does on Total Recall.
post #259 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post


BDP-S5100 Firmware was updated in February of this Year. The rest of the Sony's haven't been updated since before Christmas, 6 months ago! So far only promises that they're working on it.
I see no mention on how the 5100 does on Total Recall.


Check post#240 and #243 of this thread, biggrin.gif I think I was the first to try it. (only drop was in chapter 9)

 

I've had my new BPD-S5100 for a little over a week,

(it was released in Canada a couple weeks ago).

post #260 of 338
RE: Dolby TrueHD vs. PCM as it relates to bypassing faulty encryption on Total Recall (and Brave, in my experience):

Besides the annoyance factor of having to switch between bitstream and PCM in the player (meaning, noting a problem, having to stop movie, make change, restart move, find chapter, resume play), it is my understanding (this is based on marketing literature, would like an actual engineering explanation):

bitstream is 96 or 182 KHz sampling and 24bit depth on 8 channels
PCM is 44.1KHz and 16bit depth (on a redbook CD) on two channels
What is "PCM" when it is converted from a bitstream (Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD MA)? Is it not 6 (or 8?) channels each 44.1KHz and 16bit depth?

Then the other factor is the D/A or D/D chipset and the signal path. My player is a rather modest LG BD300 with cheap power supply, cheap chipset. My receiver is a Denon A100 with separate analog and digital power supplies, high-end D/A, and presumably well-engineered, possilbly superior D/D chipset (compared to the LG BD300 player). If the bitstream is handled directly within the Denon A100 I skip some signal path in the LG BD300 player and interconnect cables. Again, mostly based on marketing hype, not actual engineering knowledge. I haven't the right kind of blind listening tests to know for sure that the A100 does a better job of converting the bitstream from the spinning disc to analog sound.

Bottom line: seems to me that Sony (or Disney in the case of Brave) should be mastering discs that actually meeting the Blu-ray standards for playback. Likewise, the players and the other decoders (who license the technology and display the logos) should also follow the standards and all work "seamlessly". I can't say if the disc mastering is at fault or if one of the playback components is the problem. For those who have successfully played Total Recall 2012 on their hardware, are they certain that the hardware isn't detecting a non-standard disc bitstream and automatically reverting to PCM? If the disc has a nonstanard bitstrream, doesn't that imply that the player's conversion to PCM will contain artifacts of this error? Are the artifacts audible?
post #261 of 338
Brave = 3 or 4 audio dropouts
Finding Nemo = Perfect, no dropouts
Total Recall = Unwatchable

Equipment = Cambridge Audio 650BD (bit stream audio setting) to Yamaha VX-671
post #262 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post


Check post#240 and #243 of this thread, biggrin.gif I think I was the first to try it. (only drop was in chapter 9)

I've had my new BPD-S5100 for a little over a week,
(it was released in Canada a couple weeks ago).

Complaint online about BDP-S5100 and a constant humm while playing CD being annoying. I only hear this on my 790 while it's searching. Once it starts playing no problems.
All my Blu-ray players, when connected directly to the TV had NO dropouts on Chapter 9.
Watched 8 and 9 so many times now, I know all the mistakes! Like, how the heck did she hit her head on the car roof when she was wearing a seat belt? How did that car bump his low to the road gun away on the freeway in front of him, but he didn't get hit? Also, cars are running higher than a foot above - once again - how did the gun get hit?
Will Costco be selling the 5100 as an X51? (HDMI included>)
post #263 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post


Complaint online about BDP-S5100 and a constant humm while playing CD being annoying. I only hear this on my 790 while it's searching. Once it starts playing no problems.
All my Blu-ray players, when connected directly to the TV had NO dropouts on Chapter 9. ...
 

 

So no AVR? and stereo sound from your TV's speakers?

That's likely because your Bluray players , when connected directly to a TV (with no AVR)

 is no longer Bit Streaming the audio, its being sent PCM (= no drop outs) (and likely down mixed to 2.0 PCM when connected via HDMI)

 

To my knowledge, there are no TV's currently capable of decoding a bit streamed multi channel TrueHD or DTS-HD audio stream,

.....and why would they on a TV with no sub, no center channel and no surround channels?

post #264 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by PioManiac View Post

So no AVR? and stereo sound from your TV's speakers?
That's likely because your Bluray players , when connected directly to a TV (with no AVR)
 is no longer Bit Streaming the audio, its being sent PCM (= no drop outs) (and likely down mixed to 2.0 PCM when connected via HDMI)

To my knowledge, there are no TV's currently capable of decoding a bit streamed multi channel TrueHD or DTS-HD audio stream,
.....and why would they on a TV with no sub, no center channel and no surround channels?

+1

Al
post #265 of 338
Just thought about that with the previous info above about the TVs only being PCM. Will have to hit Sony up about the 5100 having a February FW update, and when to expect it for the rest of the players.
Just bought 2 590s and a 790, so not in a rush to get a 5100.
post #266 of 338
First time I watched this the player was set to bitstream and there were so many audio dropouts that I really didn't enjoy the movie. Then I found this thread, e-mailed Sony but as previously posted it doesn't seem like Sony is going to do anything about it other than telling people to set their players to PCM. Last night I decided to watch it again but did set my player to PCM and I must admit that it sounded just fine. There were no dropouts and all channels including the sub seemed to be working properly.

Yes, I am still pissed off at Sony for releasing this disc with this problem and for not re-issuing it with the problem corrected. However that being said if you really want to keep this movie for Blu Ray than you will have to set the player to PCM. Not the right way to do things but its workable.

Gerry
post #267 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerryex View Post

Yes, I am still pissed off at Sony for releasing this disc with this problem and for not re-issuing it with the problem corrected. However that being said if you really want to keep this movie for Blu Ray than you will have to set the player to PCM. Not the right way to do things but its workable.

Gerry
For me it is a semi-own disc. Already watched it twice and owned it both times, but did not continue to own it. I'll treat it like most of the reference discs I own, inasmuch as I will probably rewatch certain segments over and over -- for that I will have to reorder, watch my segments, then return it if they have not corrected the defect. I have not yet watched more than two or three minutes of the PCM version. I did not provide myself the kind of system I have to make the least of its components do the most pivotal thing, and I prefer the dropouts to the sonic compromise of PCM -- still does not tempt me surrender to their defective production run by keeping it.
post #268 of 338
Sony is unlikely to ever fix this problem, it would require re-authoring the entire disc and pulling the TrueHD soundtracks.
post #269 of 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post

Sony is unlikely to ever fix this problem, it would require re-authoring the entire disc and pulling the TrueHD soundtracks.

Yeah, Sony has already forgot about this movie. If there was a chance they were going to release a new disc it would have been right after the release of this movie.

As I've said before, I thought the audio was exceptional and I really enjoyed this movie. Of course I had no dropouts or other problems with the audio as I use 5.1 Analog Audio Output from my blu ray player input to my receiver. I didn't have to "switch" any settings because that's how I choose to run my system. I haven't had a single audio problem with with any blu ray disc I've played and have thoroughly enjoyed lossless audio ever since I decided to go with Blu Ray. When I went from my old Magnavox DVD player to my Panasonic DMP-BDT500 Blu Ray player I was not just surprised, I was in awe, and that hasn't changed as I get the same feeling of reverence every time I put in a blu ray movie.

Oh' well, yeah, Total Recall has some awesome audio and the video wasn't too shabby! I liked it better the second and third time I watched it!

Al
post #270 of 338
I think I overheard the CEO at Sony saying ` Moving On now! ' `Next! Issue!'
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