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My First Ever DIY Sub - Page 8

post #211 of 231
10/31/12 at 4:50am
First I've heard it. My whole house has a surge protector at the meter and I'm running throuh a conditioner/surge protector in my rack.
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post #212 of 231
10/31/12 at 5:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Can anyone comment on this:

 

Quote:
In my opinion, unless they're incredibly robust and over sized, I'd never feed an amplifier through a power conditioner/surge protector. They don't need them, and they can do harm in dynamics limiting via voltage drop/current limiting. YMMV

 

 

Probably safer in respect to power surges.

 

IMO not necessary at all for sub amps unless you are trying to address 60Hz humm and even then prob not correct move.

 

Read up on your power conditioner current rating, its probably less than the 20A rating your stanard household circuit has, if so your power conditioner could be a bottle neck.

 

Things I would like plugged into power conditioner/filter:   A/V processor, pre-amp, BR player, computer, TV, Projector, and maybe EQ.  All relatively low current items.

 

A few facts:

 

My EP4000 will trip my power conditioner(APCH10) into "protect" mode, but it only states a 12A rating.

 

My Emotiva Amp states in manual NOT to plug into a power conditioner.

 

Most decent amps have their own built-in EMF/RFI filters as well as adequate capacitance, they won't benefit from the power conditioner IMHO.

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post #213 of 231
10/31/12 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Can anyone comment on this:




I thought it was always prudent to have your higher end electronics hooked up to a PC/SP..?
Like 'high end' cables power conditioners are expensive solutions for non-existent problems. Surge protection is all you need, and even that is already built in to most modern gear.
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post #214 of 231
10/31/12 at 5:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

 

Probably safer in respect to power surges.

 

IMO not necessary at all for sub amps unless you are trying to address 60Hz humm and even then prob not correct move.

 

Read up on your power conditioner current rating, its probably less than the 20A rating your stanard household circuit has, if so your power conditioner could be a bottle neck.

 

Things I would like plugged into power conditioner/filter:   A/V processor, pre-amp, BR player, computer, TV, Projector, and maybe EQ.  All relatively low current items.

 

A few facts:

 

My EP4000 will trip my power conditioner(APCH10) into "protect" mode, but it only states a 12A rating.

 

My Emotiva Amp states in manual NOT to plug into a power conditioner.

 

Most decent amps have their own built-in EMF/RFI filters as well as adequate capacitance, they won't benefit from the power conditioner IMHO.

 

So should I just use a standard surge protector at the wall outlet and not my Monster HTS2000?

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post #215 of 231
10/31/12 at 5:26am
Thread Starter 

Funny newbie story...

 

So I wanted to take the amp apart and see how the power wires were connected because I don't like the 14ga wiring, I think it's too small...anyway, I figured it was like my laptop and TV and you just had to remove as many screws as possible to get the thing apart, right? Hahaha...so I took all of the screws out that were showing on the back plate. Got the cover off and I was like "what the frack?"...the circuit boards weren't attached and there was goo making them slide all over the place...I thought to myself, "so much for Dayton QC..."...then I realized that I had done that by basically detaching everything from the frame/heat sink...so I quickly put it all back together and it seems I only need to remove the four large corner screws to get the cover off...

 

I got so sidetracked I forgot about the power wires...looked like they were attached in some complicated way so I think I'll leave it alone if it won't affect performance. However, I hope I didn't smear too much of that heatsink glue from underneath the boards because won't that affect the amp's heat dissipation ability?

 

I also have a hum now that wasn't there in the SPA500 once I installed the cable line ground loop isolator. Maybe its due to being on the power strip?

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post #216 of 231
10/31/12 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

 

Probably safer in respect to power surges.

 

IMO not necessary at all for sub amps unless you are trying to address 60Hz humm and even then prob not correct move.

 

Read up on your power conditioner current rating, its probably less than the 20A rating your stanard household circuit has, if so your power conditioner could be a bottle neck.

 

Things I would like plugged into power conditioner/filter:   A/V processor, pre-amp, BR player, computer, TV, Projector, and maybe EQ.  All relatively low current items.

 

A few facts:

 

My EP4000 will trip my power conditioner(APCH10) into "protect" mode, but it only states a 12A rating.

 

My Emotiva Amp states in manual NOT to plug into a power conditioner.

 

Most decent amps have their own built-in EMF/RFI filters as well as adequate capacitance, they won't benefit from the power conditioner IMHO.

 

So should I just use a standard surge protector at the wall outlet and not my Monster HTS2000?

If you feel the need.  All of my high current amps are plugged directly into wall outlets.

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post #217 of 231
10/31/12 at 7:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

All of my high current amps are plugged directly into wall outlets.
+1. AFAIK no amp manufacturers recommend using power conditioners, and those that do mention them advise against them, Bryston to name just one.
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post #218 of 231
10/31/12 at 8:05am
Thread Starter 

OK, I took it off and put it directly to an outlet, no PC no SP.

 

Couple of questions...

 

I think my box is tuned somewhere around 30hz, because the bass gets real hot around that freq...with only 1 parametric EQ at my disposal, what is my best option for smooth response:

 

a) Boost at +3db the freqs directly below the tuning freq

b) Cut right at the "hot spot" until it blends better with surrounding freqs

 

Also, is there a way to translate Q into actual freq steps? Like, if I center the EQ at 30hz, with a Q of .25, what's that curve look like, how many surrounding freqs are affected and by how much?

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post #219 of 231
10/31/12 at 8:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

OK, I took it off and put it directly to an outlet, no PC no SP.

 

Couple of questions...

 

I think my box is tuned somewhere around 30hz, because the bass gets real hot around that freq...with only 1 parametric EQ at my disposal, what is my best option for smooth response:

 

a) Boost at +3db the freqs directly below the tuning freq

b) Cut right at the "hot spot" until it blends better with surrounding freqs

 

Also, is there a way to translate Q into actual freq steps? Like, if I center the EQ at 30hz, with a Q of .25, what's that curve look like, how many surrounding freqs are affected and by how much?

 

You can calculate your estimated Fc Here.

 

However i would tend to believe the hot 30Hz region is room related not sub related.  I could be wrong though.

 

You said the room is 35' long and 30Hz has a wavelength of approx 37' so if your in the back of the room thats a high pressure region for 30Hz.  You could try moving it away from the short wall by 33% which would decrease the length mode excitation but would cost you some output in that region.

 

To test you can measure the center of the room, that should be a low pressure region for approx 30Hz.

 

I don't know how to recommend boost or cut without a graph to look at and knowlege of how much headroom you have avail.  I'm guessing your headroom is tapped out so I would cut if placement doesn't solve it.

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post #220 of 231
10/31/12 at 8:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I don't know how to recommend boost or cut without a graph to look at and knowlege of how much headroom you have avail.  I'm guessing your headroom is tapped out so I would cut if placement doesn't solve it.

 

By headroom, you mean extra amp power beyond the speakers rating, correct? I would hope this 1000 watt amp has some kind of headroom with the Epic.

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post #221 of 231
11/1/12 at 8:37am

Headroom could mean excursion or power.  IDK, how much of either you have in "reserve."  My guess was based on the size room you have and a single sealed 12 working its butt off..... 

 

Either way, response issues normally best addressed by placement, placement, placement, placement, EQ cut, EQ boost(3-6db Max).  In that order.  IOW, If you've got a 10db peak your not gonna be able to boost the rest to match at very high playback levels without running out of excursion or power as you turn up the volume.  You might get away with it up to say 85-90db but not much higher as you'll prob run out of "headroom" in the boosted areas.

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post #222 of 231
11/3/12 at 6:52am
Thread Starter 
Well, now I have some kind of vibration in the enclosure...seems to be coming from the cone...only happens on certain freqs...guess I'll take it apart later this weekend to see if any of the t nuts came loose.

One of the things I read about the Epic before buying was there were some issues with the adhesive used on some of the guts and it things would come loose sometimes...hopefully, that's not the case here but if so, I can do a warranty repair/exchange...how do I confirm what the rattling is? Any handy methods?
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post #223 of 231
11/3/12 at 9:01am
Does anyone know how much real world power that Dayton 1000 watt plate amp actually puts out at both 8 ohms and 4 ohms? Does it really do 1000 watts into 4 ohms? I am debating on which amp to go with as my budget is limited. Other amps considered are the iNuke 1000dsp, EP1500, and possibly an iNuke 3000 (non dsp version). Sorry for the highjacked post OP! I think you might benefit from answers to these questions as well!
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post #224 of 231
11/3/12 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Does anyone know how much real world power that Dayton 1000 watt plate amp actually puts out at both 8 ohms and 4 ohms? Does it really do 1000 watts into 4 ohms?
About 950 watts into 4 ohms (based on one-third power duty cycle).
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post #225 of 231
11/4/12 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

Well, now I have some kind of vibration in the enclosure...seems to be coming from the cone...only happens on certain freqs...guess I'll take it apart later this weekend to see if any of the t nuts came loose.

One of the things I read about the Epic before buying was there were some issues with the adhesive used on some of the guts and it things would come loose sometimes...hopefully, that's not the case here but if so, I can do a warranty repair/exchange...how do I confirm what the rattling is? Any handy methods?

Run some sine waves free air at very low power and see what you hear.

Careful with in and out on those tnuts stripping one can be a pain.

Is it possible that your bottoming the driver? We all tend to push our systems a little harder once we get used to them.
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post #226 of 231
11/4/12 at 8:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Run some sine waves free air at very low power and see what you hear.
Careful with in and out on those tnuts stripping one can be a pain.
Is it possible that your bottoming the driver? We all tend to push our systems a little harder once we get used to them.

No, I bottom out the driver on 25hz sine wave at around 120+dbs biggrin.gif

You are so right about pushing them. I always try to build a system that I know can take full (reference) volume sustained without damage...I think I'm there now...these BIC venturis handle everything my 609 can throw at it and that's without any external amplification, processing in the chain.

The Epic seems to simply stop getting louder when I push it into the red temporarily (amp gain close to halfway), which to me seems to be a good sign of quality distortion management.

So in answer to your question, no I don't think I'm bottoming it out. Anyone know what the voice coils are made of? I had a ceramic chip break off of my Solo Barics one time and it caused some odd behavior/sounds...this vibration is not loud, I have to have my ear up to the cone, and it only happens on certain freqs, say 30-45hz region, and only at lower volume so I'm thinking something's loose or maybe some enclosure sealant broke off and got into the housing...or maybe the adhesive I used to seal the T nuts dried up and cracked off during high excursion and fell into the sub?

I'm still getting 138dbs at 50hz sine wave at the speaker, so I don't think it's blown or anything.

As far as dedicated amps, preamps, DSPs, etc, that's all stuff I'm completely unfamiliar with in home audio as of now. The miniDSP and room calibration set is my first attempt...I'm looking forward to getting my hands a little dirtier.
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post #227 of 231
11/5/12 at 6:46am
Thread Starter 
OK I think I've isolated the vibration problem and also discovered an air leak problem. It's the amp. When I ran a 16hz sine wave (got up to 117db at speaker before distortion), I could hear audible chuffing coming from the back of the box. When I put my ear up to the plate amp, I could hear the air wushing out at or near the 3 RCA jacks (2 line and LFE).

I think I may have a bad seal from when I accidentally took the mounting screws off trying to remove the amp's back cover...

Upon hearing the air leaking, I also realized the slight rattling sound is coming from the same area, and one of the small screws is stripped around the RCAs...hopefully all of this is fully fixable.

Anyone know what type of adhesive/heat sink goo they use for the amp circuit boards to sit against the back plate? I may need to add more since so much got smeared around when it came loose...
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post #228 of 231
11/5/12 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfrey0118 View Post

OK I think I've isolated the vibration problem and also discovered an air leak problem. It's the amp. When I ran a 16hz sine wave (got up to 117db at speaker before distortion), I could hear audible chuffing coming from the back of the box. When I put my ear up to the plate amp, I could hear the air wushing out at or near the 3 RCA jacks (2 line and LFE).
I think I may have a bad seal from when I accidentally took the mounting screws off trying to remove the amp's back cover...
Upon hearing the air leaking, I also realized the slight rattling sound is coming from the same area, and one of the small screws is stripped around the RCAs...hopefully all of this is fully fixable.
Slightly OT, but this points out one reason why on-board mounting the amp can be problematic; the other is that remotely locating the sub amp from the rest of the electronics greatly increases the possibility of ground loop noise. Even if it's a plate amp mounting it in it's own box placed close to the receiver generally works better than on-board.
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post #229 of 231
11/6/12 at 3:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Slightly OT, but this points out one reason why on-board mounting the amp can be problematic; the other is that remotely locating the sub amp from the rest of the electronics greatly increases the possibility of ground loop noise. Even if it's a plate amp mounting it in it's own box placed close to the receiver generally works better than on-board.
Yeah, but this was totally my fault, though. If I hadn't unscrewed everything inside the amp when I was trying to remove the cover none of this would've happened. Since I've put the ground loop isolator on my cable line, ground loop hum is no longer an issue.
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post #230 of 231
12/6/12 at 5:50am
Thread Starter 
OK, so now I've got an unbalanced 2 x 4 MiniDSP and the Omni Mic room measurement system...I'll start posting actual graphs when I learn more about how to use all this stuff (which may be a minute 'cause I think my mic as the 60hz hum issue and I'll need a replacement), but I was taking real rough measurements last night from the central listening area, about 11 feet from my sub and I was getting about 115db on 18hz sine wave and well over 120dbs for the 26hz sine wave...at 11' from the sub in this room, that's not too shabby, eh?
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post #231 of 231
2/16/13 at 7:08am
Your dB sound too high. Is this realistic for a 12" driver 11 feet with large space with little PVG?
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