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Vann's is going to close it's doors forever - Page 2

post #31 of 92
Thread Starter 
NJ is already getting hosed by Amazon, or at least we will be shortly. They're building a warehouse in state, which means by the spring or summer of next year we'll be getting taxed too. Time for me to start buying from someplace other then Amazon it seems...
post #32 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Class A View Post

More trouble on the way.The commonwealth of Massachusetts is very close to an agreement w/Amazon to force vendors to charge Mass sales tax to Mass residents. If it's okayed watch for a stampede of states looking for the same deal. The amount of paperwork will be huge and prices will rise and more businesses will go down. We just keep feeding the government beast, pay higher prices, lose jobs and no one seems to care.smile.gif

MA is behind the curve, not in front. There are already 10 states (or is it 12?) that Amazon is forced to charge sales tax in. It is just a matter of time, it will happen in all.

Also, retail, brick and mortar such as BestBuy, has much higher overhead than Amazon and other online resellers, including those might have a few retail stores but sell online. Price matching is desperation and unsustainable. It is part of the reason BestBuy is in such dire straits. Many people use brick and mortar to "try on" a product, then go buy online. In a few years that will go away and there won't be anywhere to see a product before buying.

By the way, if(when) people really cared about this stuff they would stop bitching about paying more taxes and make an effort to change the current model on where our tax money goes. That won't be done by either of the current parties in power.

Tom
post #33 of 92
Wow...you Americans complaining again about taxes...rolleyes.gif

We pay a 13% tax hit for just about everything sold and bought in retail..living in Ontario... GMAB

Quote:
Originally Posted by Class A View Post

More trouble on the way.The commonwealth of Massachusetts is very close to an agreement w/Amazon to force vendors to charge Mass sales tax to Mass residents. If it's okayed watch for a stampede of states looking for the same deal. The amount of paperwork will be huge and prices will rise and more businesses will go down. We just keep feeding the government beast, pay higher prices, lose jobs and no one seems to care.smile.gif
post #34 of 92
A few other states already do this with Amazon and I think it will be an on going trend for online commerce. As more money goes to on line shopping and away from B&M stores the states are losing money too. No one likes to pay taxes but it is a necessary evil for services that we benefit.

Powerline, That is an interesting concept. I don't know if it would work but might have a chance with speakers. It would have to be something that doesn't change models every year to keep the cost down. The cost of replacing electronics constantly would get costly in not only money but in time for the personnel to familiarize with the new models. I would expect highly trained employees if I were paying for a demo.
post #35 of 92
Amazon has stated they intend to open distribution centers in all the states with one benefit being that you can order something today and receive it the same day. As that happens they will be subject to whatever taxes the state imposes. WRT taxes, I think I'm taxed more than enough.
post #36 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Amazon has stated they intend to open distribution centers in all the states with one benefit being that you can order something today and receive it the same day.

Yea, I read that BS too. What percentage of people really need something the same day? My guess is it would be a single digit number, and low single digit at that. Probably nothing more then a smoke screen. Amazon probably knows internet taxes are inevitable, so they're going to strong arm the states now for lucrative deals that will benefit them for years and years. They're crafty, no doubt about it. You gotta give them credit for that.
post #37 of 92
Sad news that another AV retailer bites the dust. Very little left in this industry.
post #38 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Yea, I read that BS too. What percentage of people really need something the same day? My guess is it would be a single digit number, and low single digit at that. Probably nothing more then a smoke screen. Amazon probably knows internet taxes are inevitable, so they're going to strong arm the states now for lucrative deals that will benefit them for years and years. They're crafty, no doubt about it. You gotta give them credit for that.

Amazon already opened a distribution center in California in September so we are charged sales tax now. When I buy big box items I tend to buy locally anyway except for my Energy speakers from Vanns. California is in a world of hurt anyway, we could use the extra sales tax.
post #39 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by tome View Post

MA is behind the curve, not in front. There are already 10 states (or is it 12?) that Amazon is forced to charge sales tax in. It is just a matter of time, it will happen in all.
Also, retail, brick and mortar such as BestBuy, has much higher overhead than Amazon and other online resellers, including those might have a few retail stores but sell online. Price matching is desperation and unsustainable. It is part of the reason BestBuy is in such dire straits. Many people use brick and mortar to "try on" a product, then go buy online. In a few years that will go away and there won't be anywhere to see a product before buying.
By the way, if(when) people really cared about this stuff they would stop bitching about paying more taxes and make an effort to change the current model on where our tax money goes. That won't be done by either of the current parties in power.
Tom

Large b&M stores like BB should be able to compete by price matching based on volume purchases.
post #40 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzt41j View Post

Large b&M stores like BB should be able to compete by price matching based on volume purchases.

It may seem that way, but it is simply not the case. Look at BB's financials. The cost of running a (very large) retail operation is immense and killing them in competition with Amazon.
Tom
post #41 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by tome View Post

It may seem that way, but it is simply not the case. Look at BB's financials. The cost of running a (very large) retail operation is immense and killing them in competition with Amazon.

Agreed. BestBuy's property rental, building construction and maintenance, and sales force payroll gives Amazon a big edge on lower expenses.
post #42 of 92
Its not just speakers, its a lot of the mid / high level ticket items that have simply lost their ability to pierce the curtain of American consumerism. More and more people are going to be frustrated with the inability to see / touch / experience products and more and more companies are going to be frustrated with the lack of a true retail strategy via their B&M distribution channel ( who need to price match to stay alive and thus diminish brand perception).

Any time there is an imbalance like this, some smart man or woman comes up with a solution. My take is that "retail" is going to look a lot different in the next 3-5 years. We are at the tipping point, especially when box stores like BestBuy are shutting down a few locations AND internet retailers like Vann's are closing their doors.

What about the general store? Talk about entropy right? What ever happened to that concept and could it work on a small scale? Instead of stocking everything under the sun, just stock a low / mid and high price point for the category. Consumers could still go online if they wanted more selection, but the convenience of shopping local with local support would stay intact.

Also as for the idea of a speaker / audio "demo" center I mentioned earlier, I say forget training the sales reps. Nobody is going to touch the level of knowledge in this forum, let alone be willing to do so for $10/hr. I say the speaker brands should make the rounds with their "reps" and have a rep night for Q&A once per quarter. If they don't send a rep, they don't get represented. If they can't find a rep, then they should appoint a "super user" or factory rep to an area and give them wholesale pricing. This would aid local brands and shut out some of the larger brands too far away to serve the market ( or not interested enough in the cost to send someone for such a small user base). I'd go one further and serve some beers / wine and get like 50 guys and gals in the room to have at it. Then the speaker stays on display until it is closed out at wholesale at the end of the season. Rinse / wash / repeat. Do this with receivers and amps as well.

The hardest part is finding a small enough lease to house all of this and finding out what consumers would be willing to pay, each year, to be allowed to stop in any time to audition what they want. I bet if I had a big screen in there, with some leather chairs and some beers it would be cool to stop over and stick around and talk shop even if you weren't in the market. Like an "audio" club where you get to touch everything and can talk all day / night about what you need.
post #43 of 92
Years ago there was an experiment with the catalog showroom idea. Once Amazon gets their distribution centers in every state, wonder if they'll take a go at that? Everything in the store would be for demo purposes only, and then they ship the item to your house next day.
post #44 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That being said, I don't disagree that supporting local business is a good thing when local businesses are willing to pricematch. But having bought audio equipment from Vanns, I can tell you that Vanns sells many products at prices that are much better values than B&M stores, even if one paid the sales tax, and often at prices the B&M stores won't match.

Well, I guess it would appear that the "rock-bottom" pricing model didn't work out too well for them.

I work for a certain much-maligned electronics retailer, and I don't at all mind matching an online (e.g. Amazon) price to satisfy a customer and keep money in the store. The problem is, a lot of the time the match results in selling something dangerously near or even below our cost. It would seem to me that this type of business model of matching online retailers or competing on price alone can't possibly be sustainable in the long run; revenue and margin are two different things, and revenue isn't what keeps the doors open.
post #45 of 92
Well, who knows if their pricing on audio equipment was their problem. Many of the best deals that they had on audio equipment came from product lines that were discontinued. Indeed, it seems that Vanns had an exclusive US deal on the Energy RC speaker series for huge quantities. Newegg does similar things (e.g. Polk Monitor series). Why haven't they gone under? For all we know it was maintaining their B&M stores in Montana that was dragging them down. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the problem.

But you are right. Something has to give. The current upward trend in price matching is probably not sustainable for B&M retailers. Definitely a big shift in the market happening, and those businesses who adapt will be the ones to survive.
post #46 of 92
I know when we get a company-wide overstock of a discontinued or clearance product, often times we get special vendor support, either in an overall reduction of cost, or back-end reimbursement for moving old product below cost. Obviously we don't know for sure what broke Vanns, or why Newegg is able to sell Polk Monitor speakers so cheaply, but perhaps something like this is/was at play here.

I will agree, though, that CE retail is a changing landscape...it just seems that there is more certainty for extinction rather than the possibility for adapting.

People want nice showrooms, display models to interact with, large selection, knowledgable salespeople and customer support, but don't want to pay extra for it. Which is why B&M retailers tend to pay their employees so little, and it goes around and around in circles. rolleyes.gif
post #47 of 92
Quote:
Newegg does similar things (e.g. Polk Monitor series). Why haven't they gone under? For all we know it was maintaining their B&M stores in Montana that was dragging them down. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the problem.

Newegg is much more than an Audio store, they sell computer equipment, components, accessories, etc. They also do not have retail showrooms, just warehouses which cuts down on overhead. I think their business model is a bit better planned than Vanns.

I'm going to miss Vanns, I bought quite a few speakers from them.
post #48 of 92
I don't think a demo center with inexperienced personnel would work. I wouldn't pay for that! You would have to hire or train staff that is knowledgeable in audio, acoustics, video, etc. It wouldn't be a $10/hr job. I don't think the forums is always good place for information. There is as much bad advice given as good advice and if you don't know the qualifications of who is posting you can easily buy something that isn't ideal for a given situation. I like the club idea but serving beer or any alcohol runs into another set of problems, licensing, zoning, etc. Never mind about monitoring alcohol level, intoxication laws, bouncers/ security, etc. I grew up in restaurants and know how much that avenue would add to manage. I still think it is a neat concept and somebody might capitalize on it in the future.

I predict the retail market is going to be going through a lot of change in the next 10 years as companies adapt or die. I predict service prices will go up as there will be little margin on product for service related companies. So if you need something installed in the future, HT or otherwise it will cost more. Most service industries make profit on product as well as labor. If you take the profit out of the product the labor will go up. Almost every service is affected by discount pricing and the ease that people can buy products they sell for less than dealer cost. I also predict that charging sales tax on internet or mail order products will help state revenues but it isn't going to bring B&M stores back. The buying power of big e-commerce sites like Amazon coupled with the low overhead, B&M stores still can't compete. The only B&M stores that will survive will be specialty shops that the products aren't found cheaper online.
post #49 of 92
People want nice showrooms, display models to interact with, large selection, knowledgable salespeople and customer support, but don't want to pay extra for it. Which is why B&M retailers tend to pay their employees so little, and it goes around and around in circles. rolleyes.gif

My goodness. I couldn't have said it any better!!!!!
Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2
post #50 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Newegg is much more than an Audio store, they sell computer equipment, components, accessories, etc. They also do not have retail showrooms, just warehouses which cuts down on overhead. I think their business model is a bit better planned than Vanns.
I'm going to miss Vanns, I bought quite a few speakers from them.

That's why I said I wouldn't be surprised if the Montana retail stores wasn't where Vanns was losing money. That and shipping. Newegg offers a lot of free shipping, but much of their inventory is smaller, lighter stuff. Vanns free shipping probably cut seriously into their profits in comparison.
post #51 of 92
I bought a few things from Vanns. I bet OneCall will be right behind them. A lot of folks are struggling to put food on the table now and can't afford high-margin frills, like home theater gear. I think the US cumulative tax rate is somewhere around 68% of income earned.

Not too long ago I tried to buy some speakers locally from a local installer. They ended up not being able to get them from their supplier or from the manufacturer. I went on Amazon and had them 3 days later -- and saved $350 off what I would have paid locally.

Best Buy used to be a great place to shop years ago. The store was clean, the employees were polite and were trained at least a little bit on what they were selling. Walk into a BB now and the place is run down, the employees are only there to sell, and Geek Squad is worthless. I did buy a couple of tablets from BB recently but it was strictly on-line because the tablets were on-line order only. I can see BB going to just boutiques ( similar to cell phone stores ) with most business done on-line within 5 years.
post #52 of 92
Sad. Glad I got my Energy RC-10's while I still could. Less choice is always a bad thing. Less places for companies to sell their products is also a bad thing. Will people wake up before everything is a monopoly?
post #53 of 92
The will be missed, when looking for stuff i always checked their site and have ordered a few things from them (RC-10s). I do agree with some of the posts above me about buying local, but for someone like me who lives in the middle of nowhere, there is no local, its a 50 mile drive to Best Buy. which is why i order everything online, even with shipping its cheaper then driving to the store
post #54 of 92
Keep politics out of the discussion. Thx

K
post #55 of 92
Was wondering if the Mods were going to step in with some chastisement for the blatant political commentary? Thanks Kysersose.
post #56 of 92
I would normally agree with everyone on BB going under,but they just totally remodeled 3 stores by me. They are bases in Minnesota really close to me and there are 6 BB's within 3 miles every direction. The new stores are more akin to apples stores. Everything is white and futuristic looking. If they were in that much trouble I doubt they would be doing this. There is also a new Magnolia design center in one of them and they carry all the B&W high end speakers,Sonus Faber,High end Martin Logan,High end Def tech,it really is a sight to behold! They carry tons of stuff I could only read about before. So you might want to think again about BB going under for now. I do agree their employees are lack luster. And don't get me going on getting bothered every 2 mins by the employees. Seriously,it makes you want to leave. They need to let people look around and let the customer ask for help instead of getting badgered. Funny I mentioned this to the manager one time ,I told them they should have a central help center in the store people can go into for help,guess what,the one in Richfield has that now and its much better. Some people would rather shop online and not asked to be helped every 30 secs. BB is notorious for that and I really think it runs some people off..
post #57 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

Was wondering if the Mods were going to step in with some chastisement for the blatant political commentary? Thanks Kysersose.

Coming from someone who misuses their location field to list a political affiliation, I find this comment ironically hypocritical.
post #58 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post


Coming from someone who misuses their location field to list a political affiliation, I find this comment ironically hypocritical.

+1

post #59 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

ironically hypocritical.

I believe the word ironically is redundant with the word hypocritical. That would mean something like "the opposite of what you expect from someone whose actions run contrary to their statements", but really, what would that look like?
post #60 of 92
... but in a juxtaposed way...smile.gif
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