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Bose Acoustimass 10 with Pioneer VSX-1022-k Speaker Settings - Page 2

post #31 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

But the Bose Acoustimass systems are very good -for what they are!

If that were only true (sigh).

But maybe you meant "over-priced."
post #32 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

Do you really know how much Bose spends on adverts, especially relative to the rest of the industry?
If you're a member of said industry it's no secret. Quite the contrary.
Quote:
How did you arrive at your conclusion that "their products cost twice what they're worth?
By knowing exactly what's inside them, also no secret when you design speakers for a living.
Edited by Bill Fitzmaurice - 10/1/12 at 7:53pm
post #33 of 130
Everyone knows Bose advertises a lot. You don't need to have "industry insider" status to figure that out. But there is no way anyone would know exactly how much they spend on advertising relative to anyone else unless all the concerned parties chose to make it public knowledge.

It stands to reason a small speaker enclosure will have small drivers in it. But value is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. If Bose can make a micro system that satisfies peoples needs or desires, then good for them. To many, the ideal speaker would be invisible. If Bose can deliver satisfactory sound in a nearly invisible form factor, then that will make a lot of people happy. And they will happily pay for it if they feel they are getting good value. And the average music and movie lovers value judgements are not going to be the same as the typical audio/videophile's. Most "normal" smile.gif people don't care how thick a faceplate is or if the casework was milled from solid billet aircraft aluminum. Nor do they care about woofers and tweeters and response to 40,000Hz. And you have to admit, the audio industry, especially the high end, is rife with snake oil and smoke & mirrors. A lot of folks are paying a lot of money for things of very questionable real-world value.
post #34 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

Everyone knows Bose advertises a lot. You don't need to have "industry insider" status to figure that out. But there is no way anyone would know exactly how much they spend on advertising relative to anyone else unless all the concerned parties chose to make it public knowledge.

It stands to reason a small speaker enclosure will have small drivers in it. But value is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. If Bose can make a micro system that satisfies peoples needs or desires, then good for them. To many, the ideal speaker would be invisible. If Bose can deliver satisfactory sound in a nearly invisible form factor, then that will make a lot of people happy. And they will happily pay for it if they feel they are getting good value. And the average music and movie lovers value judgements are not going to be the same as the typical audio/videophile's. Most "normal" smile.gif people don't care how thick a faceplate is or if the casework was milled from solid billet aircraft aluminum. Nor do they care about woofers and tweeters and response to 40,000Hz. And you have to admit, the audio industry, especially the high end, is rife with snake oil and smoke & mirrors. A lot of folks are paying a lot of money for things of very questionable real-world value.

So you're basically saying you have no idea what you're talking about? Bill is in the industry, by the way. Bose is overpriced and limited, why defend them? You a closet owner? I just saw an ad here in the classifieds for a 7 channel SVS system that would make anything Bose sells sound bad. For $800 vs the overpriced 899 for the crap Bose system. Not even close. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431964/fs-svs-complete-7-1-surround-sound-system-with-pb-12-plus-subwoofer
post #35 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So you're basically saying you have no idea what you're talking about? Bill is in the industry, by the way. Bose is overpriced and limited, why defend them? You a closet owner? I just saw an ad here in the classifieds for a 7 channel SVS system that would make anything Bose sells sound bad. For $800 vs the overpriced 899 for the crap Bose system. Not even close. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431964/fs-svs-complete-7-1-surround-sound-system-with-pb-12-plus-subwoofer

Civility and and actually reading the thread might go a long way towards warranting a response.
post #36 of 130
Dat, have you seen the freq plot on the Bose AM system? Not only is it not flat, you have THREE major gaps...
1. The bass module doesn't go below 50 hz at -3db, so really the bass module doesn't go as low as a good desktop speaker
2. A major gap at the lowmidrange, as the bass module falls of at 120hz or so and the sats don't pick up to around 200...
3. At the high end, the system is actuall too loud and then a major gap at 10 Mhz .

IF the OP wants the easiest system to set up, one that has a small footprint and can sound okay in the right room, then the Bose system might be the best one for him. And, if it sounds okay, then fine. However, there is nothing wrong with people here pointing out that there are alternatives that will sound a lot better and could even be cheaper!
post #37 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So you're basically saying you have no idea what you're talking about? Bill is in the industry, by the way. Bose is overpriced and limited, why defend them? You a closet owner?

He's admitted to owning Bose. Just not in this thread. And although he has denied being a Bose "fan," pretty much every thread he's posted in has concerned Bose, or he has at least brought up Bose.
post #38 of 130
I wish I had access to forum advice like this one when I purchased my Bose AM system. Online research was limited in 2004. It would have kept me from one expensive mistake. I felt like a sucker after I fell for their deceptive advertising. If you want small speakers, there are MANY other brands with similar options that blow Bose out of the water. I finally sold my Bose AM system on craigslist and stepped up to an Energy Veritas setup. It was the best decision I ever made in regards to HT.

As far as the argument, "they sound good, for what they are" stands, I have heard the same reference made to 15 second Honda Civics wearing fart cans for exhaust pipes at the drag strip.
post #39 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

He's admitted to owning Bose. Just not in this thread. And although he has denied being a Bose "fan," pretty much every thread he's posted in has concerned Bose, or he has at least brought up Bose.
Not that he's necessarily guilty of it, but Bose has often had employees frequent forums in search of Bose threads to join and defend the Bose side. It's not difficult to figure out who they are, as they only post in Bose threads. How do I know? Bose employees who have done so told me.
post #40 of 130
oops...double post
Edited by dat56 - 10/3/12 at 11:05pm
post #41 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

Dat, have you seen the freq plot on the Bose AM system? Not only is it not flat, you have THREE major gaps...
1. The bass module doesn't go below 50 hz at -3db, so really the bass module doesn't go as low as a good desktop speaker
2. A major gap at the lowmidrange, as the bass module falls of at 120hz or so and the sats don't pick up to around 200...
3. At the high end, the system is actuall too loud and then a major gap at 10 Mhz .

IF the OP wants the easiest system to set up, one that has a small footprint and can sound okay in the right room, then the Bose system might be the best one for him. And, if it sounds okay, then fine. However, there is nothing wrong with people here pointing out that there are alternatives that will sound a lot better and could even be cheaper!


Actually, yes I have seen a graph of a Bose Acoustimass frequency response. I am not interested in defending any speaker, Bose or otherwise here. As you might recall, my beef is threads being hi-jacked by Bose-bashers. But to address your point about performance, I've never seen a micro sub/sat system that didn't have gaps in the response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan Uranus View Post

I wish I had access to forum advice like this one when I purchased my Bose AM system. Online research was limited in 2004. It would have kept me from one expensive mistake. I felt like a sucker after I fell for their deceptive advertising. If you want small speakers, there are MANY other brands with similar options that blow Bose out of the water. I finally sold my Bose AM system on craigslist and stepped up to an Energy Veritas setup. It was the best decision I ever made in regards to HT.

As far as the argument, "they sound good, for what they are" stands, I have heard the same reference made to 15 second Honda Civics wearing fart cans for exhaust pipes at the drag strip.


I'm sorry you feel you made a bad purchase. Glad you're happy with your Energy's. I don't agree about the deceptive advertising part, though. What did you feel was deceptive, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

He's admitted to owning Bose. Just not in this thread. And although he has denied being a Bose "fan," pretty much every thread he's posted in has concerned Bose, or he has at least brought up Bose.
Not that he's necessarily guilty of it, but Bose has often had employees frequent forums in search of Bose threads to join and defend the Bose side. It's not difficult to figure out who they are, as they only post in Bose threads. How do I know? Bose employees who have done so told me.


Look at my avatar! I'm hardly hiding the fact I own Bose products! I own 901 VI speakers, Companion 2 pc speakers, and AE2 headphones, and I am totally satisfied with all. I prefer my 901's to everything else I have tried in my current room, which includes klipschorns and B&W 703's. I prefer my AE2's to my Sennheiser HD580's, and I prefer my Companion 2's to my klipsch Pro Medias.

I have not started any threads here. I have tried to answer or at least to contribute to threads started by Bose owners, but in all I end up defending Bose because they and I are attacked by Bose bashers. Which, btw, if you don't like Bose, that's fine. You have a right to say so, as I have a right to defend the brand if I want to. The issue, for the umteenth time is threads being hijacked and Bose owners being demeaned and ridiculed.
Edited by dat56 - 10/2/12 at 6:43am
post #42 of 130
"Actually, yes I have seen a graph of a Bose Acoustimass frequency response. I am not interested in defending any speaker, Bose or otherwise here. As you might recall, my beef is threads being hi-jacked by Bose-bashers. But to address your point about performance, I've never seen a micro sub/sat system that didn't have gaps in the response."

Correct...however, many of those sat systems that perform equally as poorly as Bose can be a lot cheaper. I mean A LOT cheaper. You call them Bose bashers, but if someone is paying more than they need to for X level of quality, why not point that out so the consumer can see that there may be other systems for less money that are of the same quality. Btw look at the plot of the CA Minx system- some gaps? Yes, but very small gaps compared to Bose or many other systems...
post #43 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not that he's necessarily guilty of it, but Bose has often had employees frequent forums in search of Bose threads to join and defend the Bose side. It's not difficult to figure out who they are, as they only post in Bose threads. How do I know? Bose employees who have done so told me.

I'm not surprised, and I especially wouldn't be surprised to see that happen on AVS given how many people come here for advise. Not that I'm saying he's guilty of that, either.

But it is curious why someone who claims experience with all kinds of speakers would choose to almost exclusively focus on Bose on AVS. There are so many other things to talk about here, and so many other people that are looking for help. It certainly suggests an agenda, although I can't claim to know what that agenda is.
post #44 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It certainly suggests an agenda, although I can't claim to know what that agenda is.
When it is in fact a shill the obvious agenda is to push sales of Bose by attempting to quash criticism of them. That's certainly not a surprise if you're aware of previous antics of theirs, such as their suing Consumer Reports for having the gall to tell the truth about their products, or bullying examiners to obtain patent protection for concepts for which prior art existed 20 years before.
post #45 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post

"Actually, yes I have seen a graph of a Bose Acoustimass frequency response. I am not interested in defending any speaker, Bose or otherwise here. As you might recall, my beef is threads being hi-jacked by Bose-bashers. But to address your point about performance, I've never seen a micro sub/sat system that didn't have gaps in the response."

Correct...however, many of those sat systems that perform equally as poorly as Bose can be a lot cheaper. I mean A LOT cheaper. You call them Bose bashers, but if someone is paying more than they need to for X level of quality, why not point that out so the consumer can see that there may be other systems for less money that are of the same quality. Btw look at the plot of the CA Minx system- some gaps? Yes, but very small gaps compared to Bose or many other systems...


Apply some of the same comments here, but change "Bose" to whatever you happen to like. Do you still feel there's no bashing going on? Honestly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not that he's necessarily guilty of it, but Bose has often had employees frequent forums in search of Bose threads to join and defend the Bose side. It's not difficult to figure out who they are, as they only post in Bose threads. How do I know? Bose employees who have done so told me.

I'm not surprised, and I especially wouldn't be surprised to see that happen on AVS given how many people come here for advise. Not that I'm saying he's guilty of that, either.

But it is curious why someone who claims experience with all kinds of speakers would choose to almost exclusively focus on Bose on AVS. There are so many other things to talk about here, and so many other people that are looking for help. It certainly suggests an agenda, although I can't claim to know what that agenda is.


I addressed this in the previouas post. I have started absolutely 0 threads here. I have merely responded to Bose-related threads started by others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

It certainly suggests an agenda, although I can't claim to know what that agenda is.
When it is in fact a shill the obvious agenda is to push sales of Bose by attempting to quash criticism of them. That's certainly not a surprise if you're aware of previous antics of theirs, such as their suing Consumer Reports for having the gall to tell the truth about their products, or bullying examiners to obtain patent protection for concepts for which prior art existed 20 years before.


Criticism is one thing. Condescending attitudes and demeaning and insulting people is quite another. Anyone saying a good word about Bose is suspected of being a shill, but you can say glowing words of praise for anything else and that's just fine and dandy.

Bose has a fairly litigious history. I'm not prepared to accuse or defend them on that. It's really beside the point anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Audio is my interest, not business law.

But relative to that, If you all think Consumer Reports is the go-to source for audio wisdom, that's your privilege. I agree with them on some things, not so much on others. I think Bose had a legitimate gripe, but I believe, if memory serves, that the courts ruled otherwise. I don't think any maker of unconventional loudspeakers would want their products tested by CU. Near-field, on-axis measurements of such products don't really correlate with how we listen to them. I think that was Bose' main point of contention. Correct me if I'm wrong.
post #46 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

I think Bose had a legitimate gripe, but I believe, if memory serves, that the courts ruled otherwise. I don't think any maker of unconventional loudspeakers would want their products tested by CU. Near-field, on-axis measurements of such products don't really correlate with how we listen to them. I think that was Bose' main point of contention. Correct me if I'm wrong.
They did sue based on CU publishing charts. They lost in Federal court, who didn't take kindly to their thinking the First Amendment applied to everyone but them. As to the value of charts, IMO there's only one reason for any manufacturer to not publish them, that being they don't want anyone to see them. In the case of Bose I don't blame them. The Emperor is never pleased when his lack of clothing is pointed out.
post #47 of 130
Mirage didn't seem to have a problem with their products being reviewed and frequency response charted.

Their Omnipolar design is not conventional either.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/mirage-omd-15-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures
post #48 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

I addressed this in the previouas post. I have started absolutely 0 threads here. I have merely responded to Bose-related threads started by others.

I don't know what the fact that you have started zero threads has to do anything here.

But if I am to understand you correctly based on the previous post you are referring to, your agenda is to bash anyone who doesn't think Bose speakers are a good value. Is that correct?
post #49 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

Why do you assume someone would not know the trade-offs?

Because in pretty much all such threads, people first buy a Bose product without doing any research (no offense to the OP) and then when they dont like it much, they come here asking for suggestions to improve it. Fortunately most of them do come here while they still have the time to return it and get something better and that is when they learn the trade offs smile.gif

Bose products not are purchased after doing a lot of research. People buy them because they were told by their (ignorant) friends or they happened to hear them at BestBuy where the rest of what they sell in the audio dept. is also crap. As the link in post #2 says, Bose demos are well orchestrated to fool the consumer that it sounds great. People who walk into BestBuy and buy a Bose product or anything else the sales person suggests, do not have any idea about frequency response. Also if the consumers didnt care about the value they are getting for their money or didnt care to listen to other systems, they are not going to be dissatisfied about their purchase as they have nothing to compare. Unless you eat at different restaurants and taste different food, you never know if something better is out there for less money.

There are a lot of people who blindly buy a Bose product and they are quite happy with them. It is not because of all the technology that goes into a tiny box based on research. LOL It is just that those people are not inclined to do any research before dropping a couple of grant., they have a primary goal which is to buy something that is as invisible as possible to the people they invite to their home but still makes some sound irrespective of whether the sound has any gaps in the FR, they trust their (ignorant) friends who also bought the same, they have nothing else to compare nor do they bother to compare.

You like the Bose speakers better that the Khorns or the B&W 703? Do you think anyone here would believe that? LOL
post #50 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by dat56 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

So you're basically saying you have no idea what you're talking about? Bill is in the industry, by the way. Bose is overpriced and limited, why defend them? You a closet owner? I just saw an ad here in the classifieds for a 7 channel SVS system that would make anything Bose sells sound bad. For $800 vs the overpriced 899 for the crap Bose system. Not even close. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431964/fs-svs-complete-7-1-surround-sound-system-with-pb-12-plus-subwoofer

Civility and and actually reading the thread might go a long way towards warranting a response.

I read the the thread, fred, you're just a tool. Civility? Puhleease. You have 901s, what year is your version? I stopped paying attention to 901s in the 70s.
post #51 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I read the the thread, fred, you're just a tool. Civility? Puhleease. You have 901s, what year is your version? I stopped paying attention to 901s in the 70s.

I thought I was getting old. You are older than me. LOL smile.gif
post #52 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I read the the thread, fred, you're just a tool. Civility? Puhleease. You have 901s, what year is your version? I stopped paying attention to 901s in the 70s.

I thought I was getting old. You are older than me. LOL smile.gif

That wouldn't be hard....the worst part is you're reminded more and more of the fact as time goes on....in so many fun ways. I'm starting to resent digital audio tape dude referring to "56" since thats my origin year as well as current age and want no connection! Altho at one point some of those 901s sounded good until I heard better (mostly JBLs at the time).
post #53 of 130
The OP stated that he had no experience and it was his first foray into surround sound. If he likes it then it's fine. Perhaps it will ignite a passion for good audio and that he'll soon realize the limitations of his purchase. Us folks on this forum have a passion for sound and we are quick to denounce what we perceive sa sub-standard. We all know Bose is junk. But if the op wants to keep what he has bought, then it's his business and I wish him good luck!
post #54 of 130
post #55 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

That wouldn't be hard....the worst part is you're reminded more and more of the fact as time goes on....in so many fun ways. I'm starting to resent digital audio tape dude referring to "56" since thats my origin year as well as current age and want no connection! Altho at one point some of those 901s sounded good until I heard better (mostly JBLs at the time).

My first time hearing 901s was in a bar in the mid-80s. Worked really good for that kind of setup because of their radiating effect.
post #56 of 130

Touche!

Or should I say point, set, and match!
post #57 of 130
Or Nyah, Nyah Nyah, .......Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!
post #58 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

My first time hearing 901s was in a bar in the mid-80s. Worked really good for that kind of setup because of their radiating effect.
How many drinks did it take before they sounded good?
post #59 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

How many drinks did it take before they sounded good?

I think it's fair to say that the Bose 901s were a good step up from the cheap speakers in most college bars I went to in the mid 1980s--I'm not saying that they were a cost effective choice though. LOL
post #60 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I'm not saying that they were a cost effective choice though.
Hardly, not when large Advents would blow them away. In college we opened one up and knocked it off, using Radio Shack FE103 drivers. And we copied the passive filter box. The result sounded a better than the 901, and cost about two hundred bucks for a pair, filter included. But they didn't make it into the frat house party room, which we outfitted with knock-offs of real speakers, Altec A7s.
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