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What to build?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Hello,
Want to take on a DIY sub build as my Klipsch sw308 is a little outgunned in my space. I want to spend around 1k or so (maybe less, not much more). Mostly HT but a bit of music too. big space 1400 sq. ft. . HT takes about 1/6 of it. 7.1 currently with Polk ATI A5's and matching center. Yamaha 2010 AVR if that matters. Have a wife so it must look good. have some pics to help visualize. Want to feel the dinosaurs foot steps in Jurassic park. LOL

end tables? maybe good

up front. Need to redo my stage I just built. 20 " hieght restriction. still a maybe

Sonotubes Maybe

Something behind my HT seating maybe if its not to obnioxious.

Been reading alot. Can build no problem but dont' want to spend time learning how to model ect

I would think after what to build decision is made I can start ordering the drivers and amp(s).

Pics attached
post #2 of 31
Thread Starter 
Here's a little help:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500SWR1223/Alpine-SWR-1223D.html

How about 2 of these place in the room.. Possibly could do 4 but not so sure about what power source(s) to use.


I like the discount and the Free ship to Alaska. Most others are 75 bucks shipping alone
post #3 of 31
not a bad look'n room there.

your budget is reasonable.

four sealed subs. 4 cubic feet each.
Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4 15" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468

or

Dayton Audio DVC385-88 15" DVC Series Subwoofer
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-190

Behringer NU3000DSP iNUKE 3000 Watt Power Amplifier with DSP
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=248-6706&utm_source=googleps

without any room gain, that will give you around 115db+ at 20hz.
with your room, i'd guess that you will have full reference into the low teens.
the -hf driver has low inductance and the design choice was to use a little larger enclosure for a little better sound quality.
you could cross them up to several hundred hz if you need to, as there is no way your mains are going to keep up with this bass system.

drivers would be wired in parallel and run two per channel.
behringer specs peak power, so in reality, you'd have about 500 watts per driver.
the dsp is easy to use and has all kinds of features should you need them.

if you buy from parts express, it is in stock, it ships free, and if you have a problem, they have a good reputation for taking care of their customers.

how you make them look is up to you.

edit: not sure if shipping is free to alaska from p.e.
post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
PE is $75 extra for each driver they shipped to me. I live in Alaska. Crutchfield ships for free here which is a big reason I'm considering these:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500SWR1223/Alpine-SWR-1223D.html

Plus they are on sale $100 off:

Thanks for the nice comments on the room. I'ts coming along but its not there yet

I was thinking about a ported build as that is mostly what I've been reading about. Would consider sealed though if it would give good results.

Back to the drivers:

Alpine r series 150 each landed 12" though. the Daytons from PE 200 and 250 landed each but they are both 15"

4 Daytons might not fit my budget now but I could do a set easy enough
Edited by Toksook Bay - 9/29/12 at 11:58am
post #5 of 31
I feel your pain buddy. Sometimes you just gotta pay the awesome tax to get stuff shipped to Alaska. When I built my sub I went for one massive 18" driver so I didn't have to pay to ship multiple smaller ones. On the bright side, things like an EP4000 amplifier are free super saver shipping on Amazon so you don't gotta dig around in the crutchfield bin for amps.
post #6 of 31
the swr1223d is a good driver. ported would give you much more bass around the tuning frequency.

two of them in two cabs each of 5 cubic feet net internal volume will get you 116db or so before room gain from about 16hz up.

this is max spl at rms output (600 watts per driver). that will actually take it right to xmax in this cab.

sorry for going off target to p.e. somehow, i missed your second post the first time that i replied.


Edited by LTD02 - 9/29/12 at 1:09pm
post #7 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushi View Post

I feel your pain buddy. Sometimes you just gotta pay the awesome tax to get stuff shipped to Alaska. When I built my sub I went for one massive 18" driver so I didn't have to pay to ship multiple smaller ones. On the bright side, things like an EP4000 amplifier are free super saver shipping on Amazon so you don't gotta dig around in the crutchfield bin for amps.

Just trying to get the most bang for the buck. smile.gif .


I guess to stay close to my budget I would say its either 4 12's or 2 15's any thoughts on which is better performance wise based on the choices above.

LT

You state my mains won't keep up with these (Daytons), is that a bad thing? Just not sure what you mean by that. Also, Thank you for the feedback. I can build a sub box no problem, but I'm nor to knowledgeable of the sub woofer science behind picking the right drivers ect. Hopefully this DIY route is better then just buying a premade set up.
post #8 of 31
here is the max spl (not frequency response) of 2 alpines (gray), 4 alpines (purple), and 2 dayton dvc385 (red).



folks have been pleased with the performance of both of those drivers, so it kind of comes down to what you think is best.

"You state my mains won't keep up with these (Daytons), is that a bad thing? Just not sure what you mean by that."

i was just trying to suggest that if you are happy with your mains, you will be more than happy with what i suggested, as the 4x dayton sealed option would be able to exceed your mains in performance (and so would any of the options in this picture).

if you want to see some possibilities for the dayton dvc385, a very similar driver was used in the now defunct av123 mfw-15.

search google images for: av123 mfw-15

some of them look quite nice. i think it was a 5 cubic footer tuned to 20hz w/500 watts. the crappy amp was unreliable and was part of the company's demise.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/29/12 at 2:20pm
post #9 of 31
Thread Starter 
Still contemplating.

I have an under the stair angled closed right behind the screen. (Can post another picture later when not at work). I could put in a F 20 Tapped horn there. Is it ok to extend the baffle through the wall below the screen? Would I be happy with the F20 soundwise? Otherwise I think that I might go with 2 12's or 15's either up front or end tabled. I do like the AV123 look but If I put it below the screen I have a 20" height restriction.

Performance wise how would something like a Dayton 15 or the Alpine with a nice amp stack up vs some of the higher end Subs i could just purchase like an outlaw or SVS.
post #10 of 31
minor correction: the f-20 is what is called a front loaded horn. it has a sealed enclosure inside and the horn is in front of the driver.

it can fire through a wall no problem. if the hole in the wall is at least as large as the mouth (exit) of the horn, there shouldn't much if any change in performance. in some sense it is kind of like adding a few inches to the length of the horn and that isn't really going to change things.

as for a performance comparison, two of the dvc385 or 390hf's each in a 5 cubic footer ported and tuned to 20hz with a 1000 watt amp would be roughly equal to one svs pb13u.

two swr's each in a 4 cubic footer ported and tuned to 20hz with a 1200 watt amp would come up a db or two short vs one svs pb13u.

one f20 with 500 watts would be roughly equal one pb13u.

if you want to go with sealed enclosures, you will get bass significantly below 20hz, but figure about twice as many drivers and power.
Edited by LTD02 - 10/2/12 at 3:54pm
post #11 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your response LTD02!


Quote:
two of the dvc385 or 390hf's each in a 5 cubic footer ported and tuned to 20hz with a 1000 watt amp would be roughly equal to one SVS pb13u.
Quote:

IS this the 15 or 12? and are you saying 1 1000 watt amp can drive both? Will performance alter having end tables vs putting the boxes up under where the screen is?
Quote:
it can fire through a wall no problem. if the hole in the wall is at least as large as the mouth (exit) of the horn, there shouldn't much if any change in performance. in some sense it is kind of like adding a few inches to the length of the horn and that isn't really going to change things.
Quote:

how is this going to work given the dimensions of my room ? I would build a port and baffle through the wall under my screen for this. about 13 to 15 feet straight in front of my seats?

For the money the F0 seems like the project to undertake if you strictly looking at price performance ratio and can deal with a large box.
post #12 of 31
no problem.

1000 watts total for the dual 15 porteds (500 watts each). the daytons that i mentioned are the 15".

the swr's that i mentioned are the 12" (600 watts each).

"how is this going to work given the dimensions of my room?"

i'm not sure what you are asking.

"For the money the F20 seems like the project to undertake if you strictly looking at price performance ratio and can deal with a large box."

that is correct. it is the best bang for the buck if you are happy with a little under 20hz point where it starts to rolloff. what you tradeoff is obviously the size and limited experimenting with placement options.

while with something like the pb13u, a medium sized enclosure was chosen with a long throw driver and lots of power. that increases the price, but keeps the size down.
post #13 of 31
Thread Starter 
I've decided to build 2 ported subs and place them under my screen. They will go next to my RTI A5's and I will build or buy a different media center in the middle to house my electronics and CSI A6 Center. The screen and my current speakers are all in a shallow alcove that is 18" deep. Going this route I need to stay under about 20" in height (22" max), width I have a little more flexibility, Depth I have flexibility but I don't want it to stick out to far creating an unbalanced look. I would say ideal would be 20" to 24 inches deep. I like the look of the SVS ultra with 3 ports under the Subwoofer on the front Baffle. I would also consider a slot port option as I also like the looks of the av123 mfw-15 mentioned above.

I've researched the Dayton and Alpine option pretty hard and they are my leading candidates. I am considering a step up but I have no idea if its worth it or if I would be satisfied with the performance of the Dayton's since I'm not able to test them prior.

I'm not a bass head per say, and am looking for pretty good SQ and the effect of feeling the movies when watching blue rays ect. i don't want shake down my art work 2 stories up or piss my wife off , maybe there is a balance there that I'm striving for. I do like quality things and am considering some subwoofers such as the TC Sounds Epic or some other alternative which would be a nice step up from the Dayton HF 15. I have purchased a SW308 Kliipsch and it just doesn't quite do the trick, so I'm hoping that my new choice will be able to improve the low freq in my newly coming along HT set up.

Also, my size requirements may dictate what sub I eventually purchase, and if necessary I could go with 12's (I do have a large room 1400 sq foot total, although the HT area is much smaller). I'm also needing to get a new amp I'm leaning toward an external amp for power both subs.

Any additional input would be greatly appreciated as I get closer to pulling the trigger and order up some new drivers and an amp to power them. My plan would also be to continue this DIY project as a build on this site.

Thank you,
Jon
post #14 of 31
i don't know if the epic would be a big step up from the alpine. they model within a db or so of each other and with the shipping advantage to alaska of the alpine along with its lower price to start, that may be the way to go.

with a ported sub, some sort of high pass dsp would be a good idea.

i just looked up your sub. an 8" pr design. no wonder you are lacking the bass! you are rolling off around 30hz and are lucky to get 110db @1m model performance.

two alpines with an inuke3000dsp will get you around 120bdb @1m and extension down to 16hz or so in model.

some of those klipsch specs would make paul roll in his grave (was just looking at the kw-120-thx).

if you are happy with the size of that riser underneath your screen, you could probably build a pair of subs that are pretty much just like that.

post #15 of 31
Thread Starter 
Man I wish I would of known the numbers of the Klipsch. I think I paid 400 for the thing just a few months ago. before I came to this forum I didn't know much . I still don't but at least I have a little better idea what the numbers mean and what to look for.

I see what your saying using my current riser as the boxes or at least the existing profile of them and that is an option. What I had in mind was to move my electronics under the screen in the middle and get rid of the riser box completely. Something along the lines of my rough sketch.


Its about 11' 6' across. my speakers are less then 1' wide each, the DIY subs might be 2' wide each, which would leave about 5 1/2 ' for the equipment center.

For Subwoofers I have found 15" SWR type R Alpines for sale on Amazon for about 230 shipped or the Daytons which are about 172 +maybe 70 bucks for shipping so virtually the same price. or else I have found the 12" Alpine type R's for 150 shipped. I at first thought this was a killer deal but they're a closeout model and available at this price most places.
post #16 of 31
closeout does not equal discontinued. is the 12 discontinued?

http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/swr-1243d

nor sure about the 15, but the 12 appears to very linear in bl and symmetrical in suspension.

the 1542 is the older model. not sure how it stacks up. a few db higher max spl is provided by them though.
Edited by LTD02 - 10/4/12 at 9:49pm
post #17 of 31
Thread Starter 
Lt what did you use to sketch out your diagram. I like what you did, But I'm thinking I 'd like to move my electronics in there so it would need to look more like what I drew. Given this my Boxes will need to be:

24-28" wide 20-22" tall 20-24" deep. Is there a driver that would fit this size box better then another for a ported sub? I sketched out a few options just for ascetics purposes. .



Hoping someone might be able to help me out with finalizing the design and port lengths, drivers and the amp I should get. I downloaded Winisd but after about 4 hours I"m still struggling pretty hard with the program "Errors"

Any of the drivers above I' could go with just depends on what models best in my size box and I would also consider others based on recommendations.

Thanks,
post #18 of 31
"Lt what did you use to sketch out your diagram."

microsoft word. :-)

i would suggest a 20hz tuning or a little lower. that means that the port is going to be pretty long, so whether you go with round tubes or a slot port, you will need at least one bend.

a 20"h x 26"w x 20"d with an 18.5" x 1.25" slot port that is around 40" long will get you about 18.5hz tuning. that should get you some good bass down to 15-16hz or so. two round 3.5" vents that are 40" long will do pretty much the same if you want round.

it would be easiest to build them with the vertical slot because the sub walls would serve as 3 of the four sides of the port and you would only need one bend.

are you getting errors entering the driver information or something else?
post #19 of 31
Thread Starter 
I was trying to download particular driver info and it was not working well for me starting of as sealed and I could not change them, then entering the t/s parameters its a slow process and for Alpine a few of the parameters i couldn't find on the spec sheet. Then it seemed that some of the the ones I was practicing with that are preloaded were producing errors too.

I might try to re download it again and see if that helps.

I really can go with your numbers though, I feel comfortable enough.
post #20 of 31
for two subs and an inuke3000dsp amp, the 1243d is probably the way to go. two ohms net per channel.

if you want to fart around with winisd...

these are the specs that i have entered. start with qes. hit tab. then enter qms. hit tab again and qts will be calculated. hit tab enter fs. hit tab enter vas. hit tab several times and enter re. hit tab several times and enter sd. hit tab a few more times and enter xmax. tab a few more times and enter pe. winisd will calculate all the values in blue.

make sure the units are the same as in the image. if they are different, click on them and they will change.


Edited by LTD02 - 10/6/12 at 9:02pm
post #21 of 31
Thread Starter 
post #22 of 31
the second one appears to be the last generation, which would be a 1242d iirc. for $15 ea, go for the 1243d.
post #23 of 31
Thread Starter 
Ordered up 2 Alpine Subs and an Inuke3000DSP today. Need to gather the remaining items and get building. Thanks for the help and feedback. Especially to LTD who was very helpful getting me to this point. The AVS DIY community is fortunate to has someone of this quality and caliber assisting NOOBS like me!!

I plan to start a new build thread and share my progress.
post #24 of 31
congratulations and thank you for the kind words.

just make sure you don't get carried away with it before you get the protective high pass filter set up. :-)
post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Ok I recieved my Alpine 1243D's and a Inuke 3000dsp for $710. I also spent about 100 at HD and another 75 for parts expres. So total I'm at $900 of my $1000 budget and I'm building 2 subs for a pretty good sized room. IF they turn out nice I'll spend another 200 or so for some veneer and accessories and give them a nice finish so if thats the case I'll be slightly over my initial budget.

I started building a box and its coming along fine. The demensions are 26" W x 20" H x 20"D (see previous posts) I also went with LTD's recomendation of building a 18.5' x 1.25' slot port about 40" long. Im not sure what is best; if I go along the side I get about 18" and hit the back, I then bed along the back and get about another 21" for a total of 39" . At this point the slot is L shapped and is about 3" from the side wall. Is this acceptable ? Should I flare the end? Any thoughts or advice for me to consider.
Thank you in advance.

I'm going to post some pics here soon too.
post #26 of 31
congrats...

"At this point the slot is L shapped and is about 3" from the side wall. Is this acceptable ?"

3" clearance from the end of the port is good.

something still feels like cheating when you can hit >120db from 20hz up with a pair of 12"s. :-)
Edited by LTD02 - 10/17/12 at 9:50pm
post #27 of 31
Thread Starter 
TY LT....I"m gonna go cut some more wood now. smile.gif
post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
Almost done except for the finish. Going to either place them up front under my screen or down fire them as end tables on each side of my theater seats, going to play with the placement and decide. Built one at a time since I don't have that many clamps. One sounds OK but not quite what I was hoping for. I'll let you know after adding the second one here in a few days. Here is some pics of my build:
post #29 of 31
Thread Starter 
Few more pics of the other one:

These ported boxes house Alpine 1243D drivers and are powered by a Inuke 3000DSP. couple of products I was not so familiar with prior to taking on this project one is: Bondo, worked excellent filling holes and fixing a few router mess ups and also; Trim head screws worked real well, as i didn't have to counter sink any screws. I also used 1 1/4" staples shot from a Bostich nail gun and glued everything with Loctite PL Premium construction adhesive. I had good luck with the T nuts many people say they are a problem, mine worked perfectly. I used the pull method which I read about, using the bolt to sinch the t nut into the MDF. I also started with small drill bits and stepped up till I had the exact right size to fit the T nut nice and snug. I also used a dab of Construction Adheasive on each.

Overall these weigh in at 70 pounds each plus the driver(s).

Still need to trim route the edges, sand and finish them. I'm leaning towards applying a veneer but haven't totally decided how to finish them yet. Overall including the amp I'm into this project for a tad less then 1k. Not sure how these will stack up vs 1k of commercially available subs. I'm hoping they will hold their own. Will comment more in this regard after I try them out!!

Dimensions of the speakers are 26" W 20"H 20"D Overall a little more work then I anticipated. I cut the MDF in my back yard so I had to go upstairs back and forth alot, but no dust in my garage to clean up.

Will Post a few more pics here as I wrap them up. Thanks to all the generous posters who have taken the time to share their work I certainly picked up alot of knowledge reading through these posts.
post #30 of 31
"One sounds OK but not quite what I was hoping for."

:-(

the driver is good, the amp is good, the build looks good...that leaves room effects/placement.
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