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Why can't HTPC's best most stand alone players?

post #1 of 33
9/30/12 at 9:41pm
Thread Starter 
I have been into HTPC for the past several years. I've spnt a LOT of money on my addicition, er....hobby. With that being said, I am a quality whore! I want it to look and sound the best that it can. I have tweaked and calibrated for years and between ALL that time and money spent...it still seems a LOT of stand alone players look BETTER then most HTPC'S! We already know most stand alones can output 24hz easily and well but why is it so hard to compete here? You would THINK most any HTPC would BEST a stand alone player while the truth is...in a lot of cases..it can't even equal it!

I havea Sony 400 disc CS7000 and while I'm sure the Oppo's are even better yet, the PQ on this beast is tantastic! It just looks BETTER then my HTPC and I have a powerful rig. 3 questions......why why why???
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post #2 of 33
9/30/12 at 9:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

I have been into HTPC for the past several years. I've spnt a LOT of money on my addicition, er....hobby. With that being said, I am a quality whore! I want it to look and sound the best that it can. I have tweaked and calibrated for years and between ALL that time and money spent...it still seems a LOT of stand alone players look BETTER then most HTPC'S! We already know most stand alones can output 24hz easily and well but why is it so hard to compete here? You would THINK most any HTPC would BEST a stand alone player while the truth is...in a lot of cases..it can't even equal it!
I havea Sony 400 disc CS7000 and while I'm sure the Oppo's are even better yet, the PQ on this beast is tantastic! It just looks BETTER then my HTPC and I have a powerful rig. 3 questions......why why why???

It is than rather than then biggrin.gif

The answer is simple: you did not calibrate your HTPC properly.

But for each their own. If I felt like this, I'd forget everything about HTPCs and would use the calibrated equipment only.
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post #3 of 33
9/30/12 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

You would THINK most any HTPC would BEST a stand alone player while the truth is...in a lot of cases.
Maybe you would, but I wouldn't. It is generally easier, and cheaper, to achieve whatever level of performance you want with a purpose built device like a BD player than with a general purpose device like a PC.
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post #4 of 33
9/30/12 at 10:43pm
Some people are never satisfied. I built a HTPC just because I could. A project, if you will. I couldn't care less if 23.976 isn't EXACTLY 23.976 100% of the time. As for looking and sounding the best, well if I have a fairly clear picture and fairly clear sound, I'm satisfied. I've left my HTPC at 50Hz, and don't fiddle with it. I'm happy. Simple.
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post #5 of 33
10/1/12 at 1:32am
i often think that the only reason most people care/worry about 24hz frame dropping or judder is because MPC-HC tells them that its happening while on a stand-alone, there is no diagnostic screen to tell someone if it is happening. other than the Mk 1 eyeball, there is no way to know if playback is at exactly 23.976 fps on a stand alone unit
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post #6 of 33
10/1/12 at 4:35am
You will be surprised how many stand alone players do show that information, not to mention how many TVs will show that as well. HTPC is a hobby and most of the time a challenge. If your goal is reliable, easy to use and best quality disc player, HTPC isn't a good choice. But if you want to play Various video files and disc rips, good luck find Any disc player that can remotely match HTPC.
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post #7 of 33
10/1/12 at 5:51am
It's safe to place at least some blame on the media companies. They do their best to make it as difficult as possible to get content to your eyes under anything but their conditions.
My eyes and ears are happy with my HTPC's HD quality, with the exception of Netflix, since the PC client and catalog is nerfed compared to the Roku I use in the basement.
I'd never give up the flexibility of the one box HTPC though: web, games, stored media. Optical is a hassle and shackled by the studios.
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post #8 of 33
10/1/12 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcantu1 View Post

i often think that the only reason most people care/worry about 24hz frame dropping or judder is because MPC-HC tells them that its happening while on a stand-alone, there is no diagnostic screen to tell someone if it is happening. other than the Mk 1 eyeball, there is no way to know if playback is at exactly 23.976 fps on a stand alone unit

The thing is, it doesn't matter with a standalone, they don't have to be 23.976Hz exactly, they just don't drop frames, everything syncs itself together inherently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruiner View Post

It's safe to place at least some blame on the media companies. They do their best to make it as difficult as possible to get content to your eyes under anything but their conditions.

The "blame" goes to the PC industry, PCs aren't meant to play media, they never were, and 99.999999% of PC users couldn't care less if a frame is dropped here or there (or even every couple of minutes/seconds). The vast, vast majority of PC users/customers are corporate, home desktop (email/youtube/etc) and gamers, the number of people connecting their PCs to high end home theater systems and evaluating them against reference hardware and expecting reference performance is so infinitesimally small that there's no incentive for Microsoft, nVidia, AMD, Intel, Cyberlink, Arcsoft to actually care. They only care as far as benchmarks and buzzword features can distinguish themselves from their competitors and make them appear to care.
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post #9 of 33
10/1/12 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

You would THINK most any HTPC would BEST a stand alone player

I wouldn't think so. An HTPC is just a PC. That is, a general purpose device that is designed to do lots of things pretty well. A stand alone is designed to do one thing extremely well (or cheaply in some cases). Also, a stand alone is designed and developed by professionals getting paid to do the job. Lots of software we use in our HTPCs (front ends, players, codecs, etc) is open source software written by people in their spare time and lots of those people are not expects in those fields. Not only that, the drivers we use aren't exactly written to excel at playing movies (e.g. 24Hz). They're written to do everything pretty well. Drivers in stand alones are written to play movies. They aren't written to play games well, for example. Don't forget that this is a very small, niche market. The great majority of people don't use PCs to do what we're doing so manufacturers have no incentive to do a better job, and I don't blame them. I could go on and on.

If quality is more important than quantity, then use a stand alone.
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post #10 of 33
10/1/12 at 10:27am
I like to have a bunch of movies and music ripped with a slick looking interface, that is why I have a HTPC.
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post #11 of 33
10/1/12 at 12:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

It is than rather than then biggrin.gif
The answer is simple: you did not calibrate your HTPC properly.
But for each their own. If I felt like this, I'd forget everything about HTPCs and would use the calibrated equipment only.

Ironically the person that corrected my grammar (thanks) is also the only person that said "it's an inadequate HTPC calibration". I disagree....sharply. I would like to see ANY HTPC that can even come close to an Oppo in terms of video performance.

I would really like to see Assassin weigh in here. I guess I should have REALLY asked.....can it be done? Is it truly possible for an HTPC to meet (or exceed) performance of a standalone?

I too LOVE the hobby and all the custom stuff we can do with HTPC's. Just doing an A/B comparision between my Sony CS7000 and HTPC, the picture on the Sony is MUCH better and more lifelike (and this is regardless of framerate). I was recently considering dumping my player (honestly, I just can't STAND the whole menu thing with dvd/blu-ray) but damn....the picture is fantastic!
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post #12 of 33
10/1/12 at 12:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

Ironically the person that corrected my grammar (thanks) is also the only person that said "it's an inadequate HTPC calibration". I disagree....sharply. I would like to see ANY HTPC that can even come close to an Oppo in terms of video performance.
I would really like to see Assassin weigh in here. I guess I should have REALLY asked.....can it be done? Is it truly possible for an HTPC to meet (or exceed) performance of a standalone?
I too LOVE the hobby and all the custom stuff we can do with HTPC's. Just doing an A/B comparision between my Sony CS7000 and HTPC, the picture on the Sony is MUCH better and more lifelike (and this is regardless of framerate). I was recently considering dumping my player (honestly, I just can't STAND the whole menu thing with dvd/blu-ray) but damn....the picture is fantastic!

Is there really a difference? Post some screenshots so we can take a look. I doubt there's any difference at all.
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post #13 of 33
10/1/12 at 2:22pm
Standalone players are made from the ground up to only perform certain actions a PC is not. Modern PCs are way more powerful than a ps3 which is 6 year old tech but you won't see an emulator for ps3 for probably half a decade if not longer. The more a product is engineered for a certain purpose, the better it does at that purpose (in general). Take an all in one receiver and compare it to a pre-amp, and separate amps....the second setup would probably be superior.

I use a HTPC for the eye candy mostly. It's nice to have everything in one place. A lot of people also use it because they can add media extenders and not have to go downstairs to get a disc if they want to watch a movie in their bedroom. I have a lot of emulators and play a lot of old games so having a htpc keeps me from having to keep my gamecube, ps2, nes, snes, n64, ps1, dreamcast hooked up.
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post #14 of 33
10/1/12 at 5:46pm
My HTPC looks and sounds exactly the same as my $200 Blu-ray player. Don't know what the problem is.
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post #15 of 33
10/2/12 at 5:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyen78 View Post

Standalone players are made from the ground up to only perform certain actions a PC is not. Modern PCs are way more powerful than a ps3 which is 6 year old tech but you won't see an emulator for ps3 for probably half a decade if not longer. The more a product is engineered for a certain purpose, the better it does at that purpose (in general). Take an all in one receiver and compare it to a pre-amp, and separate amps....the second setup would probably be superior.
I use a HTPC for the eye candy mostly. It's nice to have everything in one place. A lot of people also use it because they can add media extenders and not have to go downstairs to get a disc if they want to watch a movie in their bedroom. I have a lot of emulators and play a lot of old games so having a htpc keeps me from having to keep my gamecube, ps2, nes, snes, n64, ps1, dreamcast hooked up.

What??....no NEO-GEO, lol? I too am a fan of old school games. If you haven't tried out Hyperspin....RUN, don't walk..run! I understand a standalone is nothing more then a movie machine I just wish I could get that SAME quality from my HTPC when playing movies. I am a PQ whore and want the best pic possible.
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post #16 of 33
10/2/12 at 7:05am
I recently purchased a projector system (Epson 5010 + 120" Dalite High Power screen) and have also spent alot of time looking into the best media player. My number one priority is picture quality.

What I tried so far:

- home theater pc : xbmc; media player classic + fddshow / madvr etc; JRiver media player; upgrade 3-4 video cards from Nvidia to Ati. Currently using a 3 year old quad core + Ati 5770 running latest Jriver (with Madvr).

- WDTV Live (Sigma 8655)

- Dvico Tvix 6440 (Realtek 1283)

- Boxee Box (Intel Ce4110)

- Netgear NeoTV550 (Sigma 8642). This media player should have the same PQ as the Dunes.

* I believe from what I read the newer Sigma/Realtek chips may be more powerful with more features to play 3d movies etc but in term of PQ I don't think there's any real improvement.

After hearing so much about the PQ of the Oppo I thought I have to see it for myself so I purchase an Oppo 93.

I also borrowed my brother's PS3 and my neighbour's new Panasonic bluray player (it was a really cheap one about 1/5 the price of the Oppo 93).

I spent a couple of hours using tsMuxer to cut out a dozen 3 minutes sample files of various bluray titles to make the comparison easier. Some sample files focus on close up of faces and hair details while others focus on fast moving scenes; bright outdoor scenes; science fiction scenes etc....

After many hours of testing these are my findings:

- The Oppo has a better PQ than all the media players. (but only slightly better over the best of the media players - NeoTV550/Sigma 8642 chipset)
- The Oppo has a very slight improvement in PQ over the PS3 and the Panasonic bluray player. Most of the sample files have to be played a couple of times for me to tell the difference.
- The Oppo has a very very very small improvement in PQ compared to the pc running Jriver (with Madvr turned on). The differences is so small that I have to switch between sample files over and over and over again to make up my mind. I then have to compare Jriver to the PS3/Panasonic/NeoTV550 to logically arrive that the PQ pecking orders are: Oppo > pc/Jriver > Ps3/Panasonic/NeoTV550.



- Other points I like to note:
- on a 120" screen it's easier to tell PQ of various sources. On a typical plasma/lcd it would be extremely difficult to compare between the above media sources.

- Jriver has very high PQ and is very stable; has alot more configurable features especially for my needs - the size/location of fonts; even Madvr settings like gamma and contrast settings etc...

- my comments in this post only deal with PQ of the various media players. There are alot more important variables that I have not discuss such as hardware quality; features; firmware issues; reliability; annoying quirks;

- Oppo:
Pros: very high quality hardware; very nice picture quality; very good analogue sound (from what I read...haven't test it yet);

Cons: expensive; does not play iso bluray ; does not reliably play all movies through the network; does not play region code bluray until more money spent on mods... ; does not allow for changing of subtitle font size.


I sold my Oppo 93 because of the above cons and use my pc instead. With more education/tweaks/newer hardware I believe it is possible for a pc to match the PQ of the Oppo 93 in the near future.....possibly others already achieve this.

I hear there's a newer Oppo models coming out...but that's another story smile.gif
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post #17 of 33
10/2/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

What??....no NEO-GEO, lol? I too am a fan of old school games. If you haven't tried out Hyperspin....RUN, don't walk..run! I understand a standalone is nothing more then a movie machine I just wish I could get that SAME quality from my HTPC when playing movies. I am a PQ whore and want the best pic possible.

I have heard of but haven't tried hyperspin. How does it compare with xbmc-advanced launcher or gamebrowser for mediabrowser? Currently I use xbmc, so I have my movies, tv shows, games, and music all in 1 program. I have also tried rom collection browser for xbmc but didn't like it as much as advanced launcher.

BTW I used to have neo-geo, turbografix 16, sega genesis emus...but I didn't grow up playing those systems so I don't have the nostalgia factor for them. Man did I want a neo geo when I was a kid but that thing was EXPENSIVE, I remember games were 100 bucks each.
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post #18 of 33
10/2/12 at 5:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyen78 View Post

I have heard of but haven't tried hyperspin. How does it compare with xbmc-advanced launcher or gamebrowser for mediabrowser? Currently I use xbmc, so I have my movies, tv shows, games, and music all in 1 program. I have also tried rom collection browser for xbmc but didn't like it as much as advanced launcher.
BTW I used to have neo-geo, turbografix 16, sega genesis emus...but I didn't grow up playing those systems so I don't have the nostalgia factor for them. Man did I want a neo geo when I was a kid but that thing was EXPENSIVE, I remember games were 100 bucks each.

I had a neo-geo gold system back in the day! $449 for machine, 2 controllers and Magician Lord!!

Hyperspin is awesome and a complete emu/rom management system x10! Game themes, game videos, cart images, box images, sounds....it's all there!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=53kg7Oabdno
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post #19 of 33
10/2/12 at 5:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousmurf View Post

I recently purchased a projector system (Epson 5010 + 120" Dalite High Power screen) and have also spent alot of time looking into the best media player. My number one priority is picture quality.
What I tried so far:
- home theater pc : xbmc; media player classic + fddshow / madvr etc; JRiver media player; upgrade 3-4 video cards from Nvidia to Ati. Currently using a 3 year old quad core + Ati 5770 running latest Jriver (with Madvr).
- WDTV Live (Sigma 8655)
- Dvico Tvix 6440 (Realtek 1283)
- Boxee Box (Intel Ce4110)
- Netgear NeoTV550 (Sigma 8642). This media player should have the same PQ as the Dunes.
* I believe from what I read the newer Sigma/Realtek chips may be more powerful with more features to play 3d movies etc but in term of PQ I don't think there's any real improvement.
After hearing so much about the PQ of the Oppo I thought I have to see it for myself so I purchase an Oppo 93.
I also borrowed my brother's PS3 and my neighbour's new Panasonic bluray player (it was a really cheap one about 1/5 the price of the Oppo 93).
I spent a couple of hours using tsMuxer to cut out a dozen 3 minutes sample files of various bluray titles to make the comparison easier. Some sample files focus on close up of faces and hair details while others focus on fast moving scenes; bright outdoor scenes; science fiction scenes etc....
After many hours of testing these are my findings:
- The Oppo has a better PQ than all the media players. (but only slightly better over the best of the media players - NeoTV550/Sigma 8642 chipset)
- The Oppo has a very slight improvement in PQ over the PS3 and the Panasonic bluray player. Most of the sample files have to be played a couple of times for me to tell the difference.
- The Oppo has a very very very small improvement in PQ compared to the pc running Jriver (with Madvr turned on). The differences is so small that I have to switch between sample files over and over and over again to make up my mind. I then have to compare Jriver to the PS3/Panasonic/NeoTV550 to logically arrive that the PQ pecking orders are: Oppo > pc/Jriver > Ps3/Panasonic/NeoTV550.
- Other points I like to note:
- on a 120" screen it's easier to tell PQ of various sources. On a typical plasma/lcd it would be extremely difficult to compare between the above media sources.
- Jriver has very high PQ and is very stable; has alot more configurable features especially for my needs - the size/location of fonts; even Madvr settings like gamma and contrast settings etc...
- my comments in this post only deal with PQ of the various media players. There are alot more important variables that I have not discuss such as hardware quality; features; firmware issues; reliability; annoying quirks;
- Oppo:
Pros: very high quality hardware; very nice picture quality; very good analogue sound (from what I read...haven't test it yet);
Cons: expensive; does not play iso bluray ; does not reliably play all movies through the network; does not play region code bluray until more money spent on mods... ; does not allow for changing of subtitle font size.
I sold my Oppo 93 because of the above cons and use my pc instead. With more education/tweaks/newer hardware I believe it is possible for a pc to match the PQ of the Oppo 93 in the near future.....possibly others already achieve this.
I hear there's a newer Oppo models coming out...but that's another story smile.gif

Sounds like you did quite a bit of work there. I'll have to give j river a shot.
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post #20 of 33
10/2/12 at 7:28pm
I have no friggin idea what any of you are talking about. I have 7 HDMI inputs on my receiver of which I use exactly one.. the one connected to my HTPC. The PQ and AQ are outstanding and I don't pay excessive DVR taxes to the CableCO.
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post #21 of 33
10/3/12 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

I have no friggin idea what any of you are talking about. I have 7 HDMI inputs on my receiver of which I use exactly one.. the one connected to my HTPC. The PQ and AQ are outstanding and I don't pay excessive DVR taxes to the CableCO.

Sammy2. Sure the htpc can provide outstanding PQ...but have you compared it to the Oppo? and are you viewing it on a TV or projector ?... I'm just interested to hear of anyone able to equal/surpass the Oppo.

If i was watching my blu rays on the plasma/lcd/led TV I wouldn't bother with this debate because they all look similar on such devices but on a 120" screen I'm still interested in finding ways to tweak my htpc to better the Oppo.
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post #22 of 33
10/3/12 at 12:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin View Post

Sounds like you did quite a bit of work there. I'll have to give j river a shot.
JRiver is a DirectShow player. It will not differ in quality from any other DirectShow player (NextPVR, SageTV, MPC-HC, etc) as long as the filter configuration is the same in all players (player features are a different matter).
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post #23 of 33
10/3/12 at 1:25am
It was my understanding that the major issue with an HTPC versus a standalone is the fact that the standalone derives AV decoder timing from a common clock (so are kept in-sync), whereas the HTPC uses different clocks for video and audio and they drift.

OTOH, an HTPC is programmable to handle evolution of new codecs, whereas a standalone tends to be fixed function (to minimise cost). I see no reason why a standalone couldn't have a programmable element, but it would mean more complexity and cost and the manufacturers do want to continuously sell more equipment to us.
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post #24 of 33
10/3/12 at 1:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

JRiver is a DirectShow player. It will not differ in quality from any other DirectShow player (NextPVR, SageTV, MPC-HC, etc) as long as the filter configuration is the same in all players (player features are a different matter).

Yes. If you're familiar with Madvr and know how to set it up in media players such as MPC-HC then it should offer the same quality. I prefer an easier solution (plus I have other requirements that is easier to configure via JRiver) + stability is important for me.
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post #25 of 33
10/3/12 at 2:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

It was my understanding that the major issue with an HTPC versus a standalone is the fact that the standalone derives AV decoder timing from a common clock (so are kept in-sync), whereas the HTPC uses different clocks for video and audio and they drift..


That's what I thought too and is the reason I end up purchasing the Oppo. However when I tested the video sample files that gave me problem with the htpc: eg panning scenes that are not smooth etc...I see the exact same thing on the Oppo.

After many many hours of configuring/testing the htpc/Oppo/projector settings I came to the conclusion that the PQ of the htpc and the Oppo is too close so I sold the Oppo because the htpc offer much better flexibility: eg playback of movies over the network; resize/relocate subtitles and most importantly....it can play back any blu rays I throw at it.
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post #26 of 33
10/3/12 at 4:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousmurf View Post

That's what I thought too and is the reason I end up purchasing the Oppo. However when I tested the video sample files that gave me problem with the htpc: eg panning scenes that are not smooth etc...I see the exact same thing on the Oppo.
After many many hours of configuring/testing the htpc/Oppo/projector settings I came to the conclusion that the PQ of the htpc and the Oppo is too close so I sold the Oppo because the htpc offer much better flexibility: eg playback of movies over the network; resize/relocate subtitles and most importantly....it can play back any blu rays I throw at it.

I was thinking about your original post this morning. While I applaud your efforts in trying to find the "best" in PQ, I have to question your results. I don't mean this in any offensive way but your projector/screen combo (especially gain AND size of screen) would hide a LOT of details even properly calibrated. I understand you had no choice but to go with the "Hi Power" material for the larger size but I think it was a HUGE tradeoff in terms of PQ.
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post #27 of 33
10/3/12 at 4:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

JRiver is a DirectShow player. It will not differ in quality from any other DirectShow player (NextPVR, SageTV, MPC-HC, etc) as long as the filter configuration is the same in all players (player features are a different matter).

Well, since I have just started a trial of J River about 3 weeks ago (strictly for music server comparison to my Sooloos), I guess I can play around with Madvr (I also occasionaly use MPC-HC) and see what kind of results I get. I've never messed with Madvr but it seems a staple for the serious enthusiast.
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post #28 of 33
10/3/12 at 6:54am
Just saying one player is better than another means nothing because it is not objective. Comparing one to the other must be done in a scientific way that is repeatable by anybody competent enough to perfom the test.

I have LAV and MadVR dialed in with my nVidea GT430 for stutter free playback and the audio and video stay synced as far as I can tell with my old eyes and ears shattered years ago by Eddie Van Halen's Eruption when I saw them live at the LA Forum. I don't have an Oppo as I don't have the $$$ to through at that. I have an HTPC that plays everything, including Copy Protected Digital Cable with stunning quality.

Stutter on a pan screen is natural at ~24fps. You even see it in the theater and its been there since the dawn of motion pictures. This is because that frame rate is visible to the eye, especially in a pan. If your trying to make that go away then you are doing something wrong.
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post #29 of 33
10/3/12 at 7:50am
no offence at all Darrin. I understand your concerns.

Have you seen a recent mid range projector lately? eg JVC RS45 ; Sony VW95ES/HW30 etc...even my lower priced Epson 5010 can produce stunning PQ with high quality blu rays.

I also have a 50" Pioneer plasma at home...purchased exactly 4 years ago as it was the last model made by Pioneer. I love the PQ of the Pioneer and even to this day I still prefer it to my dad's new Panasonic plasma. However, for blu ray movies I much prefer the projector setup. Not because it's bigger...but because it's bigger AND also produce stunning, sharp, vibrant pictures....not something i can say about projectors 3-4 years ago unless you have a lot of money to buy high end models...but today mid range projectors are that good smile.gif

Your concern about the high gain screen is a valid point too because many high gain screen have trade offs such as hot spotting, sparkling beads effects, lower contrast etc...fortunately the Dalite High Power screen don't exhibit these. Many experienced projector users (you can read about them in the projector forum section of this web site) use the Dalite screen because it's a great screen. The best way to describe this screen is like you're looking at a 120" plasma...well not exactly as bright but is close...a bright , sharp, vibrant picture without the wash out effects.

Sorry everyone if i got off track from the OP...just want to say that going bigger screen does not have to mean trade offs in term of PQ. This is useful information for those who seen a projector system a couple of years ago and think the technology hasn't change much.
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post #30 of 33
10/3/12 at 8:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousmurf View Post

no offence at all Darrin. I understand your concerns.
Have you seen a recent mid range projector lately? eg JVC RS45 ; Sony VW95ES/HW30 etc...even my lower priced Epson 5010 can produce stunning PQ with high quality blu rays.
I also have a 50" Pioneer plasma at home...purchased exactly 4 years ago as it was the last model made by Pioneer. I love the PQ of the Pioneer and even to this day I still prefer it to my dad's new Panasonic plasma. However, for blu ray movies I much prefer the projector setup. Not because it's bigger...but because it's bigger AND also produce stunning, sharp, vibrant pictures....not something i can say about projectors 3-4 years ago unless you have a lot of money to buy high end models...but today mid range projectors are that good smile.gif
Your concern about the high gain screen is a valid point too because many high gain screen have trade offs such as hot spotting, sparkling beads effects, lower contrast etc...fortunately the Dalite High Power screen don't exhibit these. Many experienced projector users (you can read about them in the projector forum section of this web site) use the Dalite screen because it's a great screen. The best way to describe this screen is like you're looking at a 120" plasma...well not exactly as bright but is close...a bright , sharp, vibrant picture without the wash out effects.
Sorry everyone if i got off track from the OP...just want to say that going bigger screen does not have to mean trade offs in term of PQ. This is useful information for those who seen a projector system a couple of years ago and think the technology hasn't change much.

Yes, I have seen those and some of the higher end units as well. There is a HUGE difference in quality from lower priced projectors today then just 5 years ago. I currently run a Mitsubishi HC7000 with a Da-Lite 106" CinemaVision screen (gain is 1.3). I also do a lot of viewing on a Panny 65" plasma. I intend to grab an Oppo and do some subjective comparisons of my own. While I'm not using a bunch of plug-in's for any media player on my HTPC, my Sony CS7000 looks MUCH better then the HTPC. I can only imagine that improving with an Oppo.
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