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SEOS-12/TD12M/DNA-360 Build

20K views 104 replies 27 participants last post by  NiToNi 
#1 ·
Here we go. I promised a few out there that I would create this thread and build process. I tried to log as much as I could, but in the heat of the build sometimes fairly simple steps can be overlooked. So, if there's anything you'd like me to take a pic of or describe I will do my best.

Simulate the enclosure and driver in WinISD:


I needed to construct an enclosure that fit the space. I did not need this speaker to have much low-end extension as I would be crossing them to subs. So, the F3 point was an important goal for me. Hitting at nearly 80hz was where I needed to be crossing them to dual mfw-15's. Knowing all this let me get the box as small as possible for a 12" with front slot port.

Front baffle:



Ordered a 26" SEOS blank baffle from Erich at DIY Sound Group and with this I knew I had space width wise to create the internals for the slot port while maintaining the exact volume and enclosure depth that was vital to placement in my situation. After marking the baffle for both woofer and port began cutting the hole for the AE TD12M. I went with the Jasper200 jig which works great.

Cutting the port:


This was an experiment really. I thought, well, I'll be making three of these...make a jig! The jig was slightly smaller than the internal port mouth, so when the port was mounted to the inside of the enclosure and attached to the baffle, I routed the opening on the baffle.

Making the double baffle:

Here's the single .75" blank baffle with woofer cutout and port. I ordered the 26" baffle knowing I would cut off ~2" from the bottom.



Using the completed baffle as a router template, glue, screw, and clamp the double baffle together.



Completed double baffle. The woofer and waveguide are on the same plane installed.


Cutting the rest of the box:

Here are the test box pieces I already cut and loosely preassembled to create a duplicate enclosure if this one tests out ok.



Assembling and gluing up the enclosure:

Fun times. Racing around like a madman aligning and squaring the pieces and clamping. You know the drill. lol.



Back inside to install the back:

The ol' JL Audio Pro Wedge to the rescue! Heavy sucker.


Completed box:

And time for a nice Boulevard Co. Sixth Glass.



Build the crossover:

This was the easy part...when you have Mr. Waslo on the job! Thank you, sir. Without your contributions to this effort, I'd not be at the stage I'm at now. The schematic can be found on DIY Sound Group forums here:
SEOS12 and AE TD12M design


This shall also not go without mentioning pgwalsh for offering his driver for Bill to measure. Thank you!


Crossover Parts List:

C1:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-18 18UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR

C2:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-2.2 2.2UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR

C3:DAYTON AUDIO DMPC-12 12UF 250V POLYPROPYLENE CAPACITOR

L1:JANTZEN 0.90MH 20 AWG AIR CORE INDUCTOR

L2:JANTZEN 0.10MH 20 AWG AIR CORE INDUCTOR

L3:Meniscus 3.50mH .19 ohm dcr 15GA STEEL LAMINATE

R1:Xicon 3.3 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE

R2:Meniscus 12 Ohm 10W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 10% TOLERANCE

R3:Meniscus 10 Ohm 10W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 10% TOLERANCE

R4:Xicon 2.7 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE

R5:Xicon 3.3 OHM 5W RESISTOR WIRE WOUND 5% TOLERANCE

Meniscus Audio - Lynk, Silver/Teflon, 14ga. Black Wire

Meniscus Audio - Lynk, Silver/Teflon, 14ga. Red Wire

2 POLE 25A PANEL MOUNT BARRIER TERMINAL STR

Completed crossovers

Here they are assembled, tested and soldered.


Install crossover

I chose to install the crossover within the compression driver/waveguide chamber for easy access. If/when I need to do any maintenance or component upgrades, it will be very convenient having it here without having to pull the 12" driver each time. I cut a bit of extra speaker cable to set the waveguide on top of the enclosure and to slide the xo outward to unhook it.


Time for some music!:

I'm only playing one right now, the other three will be a work in progress. Crossing over to dual mfw-15's @80hz. It sounds fantastic!


Taking measurements with the OmniMic V2 @ 1m:


System Measurement:

OmniMic V2 system measurement @ 1M (SEOS-12/TD12M/DNA-360), Track 12, Right Channel - Short Sine Sweep, No Subs.


Finishing:

Rolled on four coats of Zinsser B-I-N. Sanded after coat 2 with 220.


Fast forward!

Sprayed on 2 coats of Rust-Oleum bed liner after several coats of flat black.




No wide angle lens on my DSLR only a 50mm prime, so sneaking in a pic of my new Panasonic P50ST60 as a result.
It replaced a 200 pound Sony XBR960.




Parting wide shot (cell phone) with extinct XBR960 the plasma replaced.
 
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#3 ·
Hi Nicholas,


That's correct. The box is comprised of two chambers. Doing so gave me the 1 cubic foot volume I needed for the woofer. The enclosure volume is adjusted to include the driver volume (0.1 cu.ft.) and port volume (~120 cu.in.).


There probably are a few advantages to this. For my build, that section of the box acts a brace and gave me closer control over final volume. It may help in controlling the back wave without additional bracing or xo components in the way? Someone else might speak to that. In my build, the crossover is located in the top section so I don't have to pull the woofer for any such maintenance/HF shaping/adjustability etc. That's pretty helpful!
 
#4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22451668

Build the crossover:

This was the easy part...when you have Mr. Waslo on the job! Thank you, sir. Without your contributions to this effort, I'd not be at the stage I'm at now. The schematic can be found on DIY Sound Group forums here:
SEOS12 and AE TD12M design

This shall also not go without mentioning pgwalsh for offering his driver for Bill to measure. Thank you!

No doubt Mr. Waslo did a great job on the crossovers and got some good sounding speakers out there quickly. Without his help, the SEOS project would have taken quite a bit longer. It's by pure luck that he lives only 30 minutes from my house!



Your build looks really nice. Do you have plans on finishing the boxes? Save those good pictures so we can get them uploaded to the site. I need to figure out how to put up a photo gallery first.
 
#6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22452837


I bet they sound awesome.

.............I can't help but wonder if the phase plug does not affect the sound at all and is aesthetic only.

certainly not aesthetic only, AE uses them for heat dissipation, and benefits in power compression. Some will say it aids in the high frequency response, but I have yet to hear that from John.
 
#8 ·
nice work there rb. -3db at 80hz = thx spec. and, it has the headroom/dynamic capability for full reference in just about every home room/theater with a simple 100 watt amp. while erich can't market such a speaker in that way, we have this nice little thing called a first ammendment, so i'll go ahead and call this one SEOS THX. :)


"It sounds fantastic!"

the audience is listening. :)
 
#10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22452908


certainly not aesthetic only, AE uses them for heat dissipation, and benefits in power compression. Some will say it aids in the high frequency response, but I have yet to hear that from John.

if the Phase Plug affects HF response, it's at frequencies where the td12 is already 30+ db down in level.


And my point was that the heat dissipation is probably of no use in a home speaker that will barely ever go over a watt. I'm sure the phase plug helps in PA use though.


the Biggest pro I see for the phase plug is that there is no resonant dust cap - which therE isn't here in Robot Bunny's build either.
 
#11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22454227


if the Phase Plug affects HF response, it's at frequencies where the td12 is already 30+ db down in level.

And my point was that the heat dissipation is probably of no use in a home speaker that will barely ever go over a watt. I'm sure the phase plug helps in PA use though.

the Biggest pro I see for the phase plug is that there is no resonant dust cap - which therE isn't here in Robot Bunny's build either.

Very true, I wasnt speaking to RB's build, but just the benefits of phase plugs "in general." Heat can still be an issue in HT use however, where some folks have measured pretty high temps in sealed boxes. Not sure where I saw it, but one of the big dogs mentioned it can still build up after longer listening sessions. Such is the nature of even the most efficient drivers, and with the ae's specifically, the phase plug helps to vent those high temps to the exterior of the box instead of through the pole vent and into the box
 
#12 ·
Thanks everyone. I do intend to measure them one day. I suppose I could go with the emm-6 and REW, but knowing me, I'd want to invest in the OmniMic v2 system. It's just difficult to do when you're looking at purchasing four more drivers plus materials for surrounds (cd's and td10m's). I'll get there eventually. I measured the xo input at 7.6ohms, so I was pleased with that for my first time.



From what I've read about the phase plug, John has mentioned benefits for both heat dissipation and elimination of dustcap resonances. I can only think that at -30db those frequencies would be audible in a critical monitoring application such as a recording studio or a room specifically tailored to their use. In typical home use, it seems neither would be applicable for the advantages they are built for, if they are built primarily for commercial/PA use that is. In any case, I've never heard midrange this good and they blend so well with the highs, it's a whispery, detailed clarity that has me grabbing every sacd or dvd-a I own. I wish I had the acoustic measurements to 'see' what I'm hearing, drives me nuts to make all these subjective comments without data.


That's awesome LTD02. Love it. I'll never forget the day you posted this very port size (1x12x10) and those numbers were literally sitting in WinISD on my desktop as I read it! So, build with confidence, man. It's works! SEOS-THX, that's marvelous.



I think I'll go ahead and build the other two xo's this weekend, supposed to be cold out. Mmm…hot chocolate and solder smoke. I've got wood cut to build a replica of this speaker, so I just need to replicate those pieces for the center channel and glue them up when it’s warmer out.


As far as the finish goes, I'm still not sure. When I built my subs, I kept them unfinished until I could complete the front three speakers and surrounds, primarily so the finish for all the speakers is done at the same time. I was thinking two tone: satin black baffle and some sort of veneer/black stain and lacquer...but with four little ones 10-3yrs that could be an expensive disaster. As indestructible as Duratex is, I just can't do it after this much research and work…but I’ve got plenty of time to mull it over.
 
#14 ·
Yes, more efficiency, Fs and Qts differ between each model as well. The M is perfectly suited for midrange frequencies whereas the H, for instance, would go a bit lower and most likely require a larger enclosure. I haven't simulated it though.
 
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#15 ·
Good to know. I find it interesting that Wayne uses the "S" for his builds with the higher xmax and is still able to accomplish a killer response. Look like I need to start a new thread on all of this. Im really getting build-itis right now. It is killing me.


btw, RB you made the XO look easy. kudos there. I think even I could get that together just from your pic and the correct parts list. Laying the XO components out first is definitely the way to go so you dont have wires running all over the place.
 
#16 ·
Thanks beast. The schematic is super easy to follow. One input, two outputs, six connections to common. Just pay close attention to all connection points and you'll be fine and dandy. Also, don't solder first, connect the drivers and measure the input with your multimeter.
 
#17 ·
A crossover was done for the TD12X,, too, the same day as the one for TD12M. It's over at diysoundgroup forum. Other than a few dB sensitivity, the response after crossover was pretty much the same as for the M... Crossover point ended up a little lower to get the blend, though.
 
#18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22455086


Thanks beast. The schematic is super easy to follow. One input, two outputs, six connections to common. Just pay close attention to all connection points and you'll be fine and dandy. Also, don't solder first, connect the drivers and measure the input with your multimeter.

I dont solder, and using the multimeter I have no idea on either. I know how to use it to test voltage across light fixtures and outlets, but not impedance. But I can figure that out when it comes time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo  /t/1431906/seos-12-td12m-dna-360-build#post_22455118


A crossover was done for the TD12X,, too, the same day as the one for TD12M. It's over at diysoundgroup forum. Other than a few dB sensitivity, the response after crossover was pretty much the same as for the M... Crossover point ended up a little lower to get the blend, though.

Not a problem, gonna check it out. Thanks Bill... More and more I am realizing, more and more I really need to step my game up and learn XO stuff
 
#19 ·
Robot,


Got a few questions for you.


1) Any issues crossing ported speaker to sealed subs?


2) What multimeter did you use, and what exactly did you measure on the x-over?


3) Exactly what type of wires did you use for the x-over? Last time I did a set of x-overs, I used some 16g speaker wire.


Thanks
 
#20 ·
smokarz,


As I understand phase between sub and ported main (the two playing the same frequency at the same time), my port frequency (50hz) is within the range that the speaker rolls off to the sealed subs, in this case 80hz. So I should be ok. Not sure how to correct for it though if it were an audible issue, but I'd be interested to know.


I've got an el' cheapo from PE, here: 3-1/2 Digit 19 Range Digital Multimeter with Transistor Test . They are 8ohm drivers and I measured 7.6ohms at the xo input. A couple of times they measured 7.8ohms.


The ground and hot wires I got from Meniscus Audio, they sell by the foot. Here: Lynk 14ga Silver Hook Up, Red and Lynk Wire,14ga Silver Hook Up, Black . They're nice and pliable so they can be flexed into whatever shape you need to get around components if needed.
 
#21 ·
If you crossover the mains well above their port frequency, there shouldn't be a problem. But if you run them as "Large", a.k.a. not high passed, then there might be a cancellation issue, or might not.


A multimeter won't really tell you a lot about the crossover or if it's connected right. For instance, if you disconnect the tweeter (or anything after the first series capacitor) that won't make any difference at all to what the meter measures at the input terminals. A multimeter only measures DC resistance, to really check impedance you'd need something that measures AC characteristics over the range of audio frequencies like a Woofer Tester (or WT2, or WT3, or DATS, or a working Speaker Workshop setup). Easier and cheaper to just check each connection/wire and mark them off on the schematic as you verify they go to the right place.


And I really wouldn't worry much about what wire you use inside the box, it is so short it would be difficult for it to matter unless you went with ultra fine gauge. (Though it would be easy to get into an argument about that on most audio forums, so I'll stop at that comment
)
 
#22 ·
bwaslo - question...is the crossover you designed going to work on pretty much any box design (i.e. larger volume, ported, non ported) or will the crossover need to be modified with a change in the box design?
 
#23 ·
No, the effect of the box volume will be way below where the crossover has effect. But the baffle width can get into things. Keep it around 16" wide with the waveguide close to the top edge and you should be ok.


But if you run without sub and the box not able to go below 60hz or so, it might sound bright. Extended highs need extended lows to sound balanced, at least to me.
 
#25 ·
ok, I was estimating.... don't have the box here. What Erich said.
 
#26 ·
Talking BSC here for a moment...let's say hypothetically, you have a baffle that's 11.25" (which you wouldn't since this is a for a 12" driver) which is the wavelength @ 1200hz. There would be a 6db rise in response, so you'd need to pad @ 1200hz. If that's the xo frequency (for this xo it is), is there an example of what that might look like on a graph with and without attenuation?


Being as how my baffle is 14.5", theoretically, I should see a 6db rise at ~950hz. Since this is below xo frequency, should this be padded and what effect is there when step compensation begins at or below xo frequency? What's the terminology for this? Thanks.
 
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