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Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 54

post #1591 of 5770
1/6/13 at 6:03pm
I have searched this forum and many have requested the AVP-A1HDCI and AV8801 be A/B compared. I can't find any results or reviews.

Anyone out there...
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post #1592 of 5770
1/6/13 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Agreed, and I appreciate this is a "science" forum (and I'm probably going to get my head bashed in on this...); however, I think the measurement conversation only goes so far and rarely tells the final story - most components we are looking at probably all measure above what one might describe as discernible "differences," yet many people, including reviewers, hear them. So either
a) we are all blathering idiots, which is certainly possible and I'll vote for myself as poster child..
or
b) there are sonic characteristics that aren't readily measurable because of the complexity, variances, and minimum quality of the chain, and of environment., or whose measurements alone don't indicate final rendered sound.
I tend to think its more the latter. And I understand some might say none of that should matter, but that is real - we have to deal with how things sound (or look), with the rest of our equipment, in our particular and often imperfect environments. It is more the net result, less the intrinsic values.
Most reviews don't have measurements, and those that do still of course have ample subjective feedback. It's possible even subjective reviewers are "surprised" by some measured values in how it may not "match" what they are hearing.
The entire component change I think makes a difference as well. The MC303 I just added for my 802D2's has an appreciably better sound. But if I had different, less demanding speakers, perhaps I would not hear that. While ultimately measurable, its not practical given the innumerable combinations of components, and thus one must rely on what they hear to a large extent.
There are many (if imperfect) analogies - my range in the basement kitchen just shat the bed. I can review the BTU's of competing ranges, but I know that different ranges cook differently because of how the burners distribute the flame. There is a difference, but not a measurable one in this simple example. Using the auto analogy from before, cars with similar HP or torque will feel very different to the test driver because of differences in suspension travel, tires, etc. It would be chaotic to try and measure and normalize the variables.
I could screen my wife's DNA to get a very accurate picture of biologics, but it won't tell me if I love her or not (I do, I do!)
So while personally do agree good specs are important as a foundation in analysis, they often do not usurp critical listening in your environment.
Regarding bias, I personally don't carry any. I've moved from an AVP-A1 to a 4311 to an SSP-800 to an 80.3 to the 8801. It doesn't matter the brand or the "prestige", what matters is how it performs in my environment. Yes, better brands tend to produce higher quality equipment, but not necessarily so. I think bias comes into play when people steadfastly protect a past decision without being open to change or adoption of new opinions.

Your thoughts please on SQ of the 8801 vs AVP-A1? Analogue and digital. Would you replace your AVP for the 8801?
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post #1593 of 5770
1/6/13 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

Here's the problem, as I see it. Comparing any SSP is next to impossible. Let's say I have a 5508 and 8801 on hand. Changing out the cables, setting up the speakers, and tweaking the settings could take an hour (or more). Auditory memory is said to last seconds so I am somewhat dubious of "velvety" and "butter" smooth comments when someone changes processors. Unless the difference is just dramatic, night and day, I am going to bet that audible differences are small making it difficult to choose a definitive "winner". While measurements don't tell the whole story they are very useful in pointing out potential issues or inherent design flaws. For example, without measurements we would not have know that the 8003 amplifier performed relatively poorly. Crosstalk numbers were horrible and the amp ran out of steam when running more than 2 channels. I doubt many users conveyed that info in their reviews wink.gif
That being said, if we have 30 people on here that say the 8801 sounds great and is a major improvement over X,Y, and Z then I think it lends credence to the unit being good, even if it is anecdotal.
Is there cost-effective, reliable way to compare SSPs at home? I can't think of a way to AB them.
-Brian

Amen!! (Partially)

Because 30 people say it sounds great does not mean it sounds better than "x". Comparing multiple well designed and constructed 2 channel preamps is difficult. Doing that with 5, 7 or more channels makes it incredibly more complex. Then throw in Audyssey where the measurements may not have been done from EXACTLY same spots and the complexity for an accurate comparison increases by an order of magnitude.

When I read reviews by credible reviewers (e.g. Kal), and he tells me that the 8801 is significantly better than the (for example) 80.3, and im in the market for a new SSP, then I would put the 8801 on my list. But given I too have used multiple high end SSPs, I would have no interest in replacing my 80.2 with an 8801 UNLESS i wanted to go to 11 channels.

But that is just me.
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post #1594 of 5770
1/6/13 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Your thoughts please on SQ of the 8801 vs AVP-A1? Analogue and digital. Would you replace your AVP for the 8801?

I haven't had the avp for a few years now, so I cannot make an immediate comparison, plus I did not not have the upgrade from denon - sold it before that. So the addition of xt32 to the unit would have been nice to hear.

Further my room configuration has changed quite a bit since then, so too many variables I think to go back that far
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post #1595 of 5770
1/6/13 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stieger View Post

agh, bummer! Center Surround used to be an option on older marantz gear - I actually liked it. Was hoping they had a "single height channel option" to sum the two together like the old pro logic. Unless I go from direct radiating (Triad in rooms) to a dipole like a Martin Logan, I'm not going to get that huge enveloping sound equivalent to the height speakers.... bummer.
Aside from the dual drive speaker, you can combine the outputs of two amps through a transformer like this. Then you can use any speaker you want.

As for the speaker itself, I'd suggest a dipole. You'll want as little direct sound as possible if the goal is envelopment.
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post #1596 of 5770
1/6/13 at 9:45pm
A question on the ethernet hub.
Is that 1 input and 3 outputs. or is it a wifi input and 4 ethernet outputs?
Could somebody explain the ethernet hub on the 8801 and what its designed for.
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post #1597 of 5770
1/6/13 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Aside from the dual drive speaker, you can combine the outputs of two amps through a transformer like this. Then you can use any speaker you want.
As for the speaker itself, I'd suggest a dipole. You'll want as little direct sound as possible if the goal is envelopment.

great Idea, I'll go that route!

Thanks Roger

Stieger
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post #1598 of 5770
1/6/13 at 10:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jam88 View Post

Look what I found on Marantz's UK support website on AL24. Funny that it should be found on a Marantz support site... coincidence?
The link talks about Alpha processing, whose description makes no mention of upsampling. So the question about Advanced AL32 remains as open as ever. I'd like to know the answer, too!

You're missing the point that I was trying to make. Why are they talking about AL24, an ancestor of AL32, on the Marantz UK support website if Marantz "supposedly" doesn't use it? Kind of makes one wonder... They may not call it by the generic term, preferring to use instead a marketing trademarked name such as AL32 but if you read what they're describing, it is in fact: upsampling. Look on Wikipedia for a description of the technique. Even the description of AL32 on Denon's web page describes upsampling. You'll find the term interpolation of data used on both referenced web pages pages above, a dead give away that they're talking about upsampling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

How can you tell if the upsampling is done in a DSP vs. a DAC? Don't most modern DACs upsample? I realize there are different forms of upsampling, and that AL32 and Meidian's apodizing upsampling have specialized characteristics in their reconstruction filters.

You're confusing oversampling with upsampling, which are two different techniques. Oversampling has been done inside of DACs for a couple of decades now. Upsampling, on the other hand, is a more recent technique that requires a DSP running the upsampling algorithm that performs arithmetic calculations to derive the interpolated data, which consists of the added sample(s) between two original samples. A sample's word length can optionally be increased (it usually is), e.g. from 16 bits to 24 bits. The link I gave above on AL24 mentions the use of a DSP. The following article further describes upsampling versus oversampling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I suspect the best way to detect AL32 is with an impulse, and look at the ringing behavior, as shown here.

This may also work but I feel that observing the waveform aliasing as I suggested earlier may be simpler.
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post #1599 of 5770
1/7/13 at 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

Good question, and one no one seems to know the answer to. From what I can tell the Marantz is flat out missing DDSC, Denon Link HD, and AL24 processing. I don't understand why the Marantz is missing this.
-Brian

The 8801 is missing Denon Link, granted.

As far as AL24 or AL32 is concerned, i.e. upsampling of audio, I think we don't know yet if it implements some form of upsampling that they're not divulging to preserve brand differentiation.

Now for DDSC (Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit), put simply, that's just marketing hyperbole to say that the their DDSC equipped A-V receivers don't use an all-in-one SoC (System on Chip) that incorporates the digital I/O, a low-cost fixed function DSP to perform the audio decoding and low-end integrated DACs, the kind of solution you'll find on those cheap HTIBs. Rather, DDSC equipped gear will use higher-end discrete (separate) specialized chips for each of the functions described in the last sentence. Look at this Australian web page showing a block diagram of the Denon DDSC HD structure. Well, it can be said that many manufacturers have their own version of DDSC (Integra/Onkyo, NAD, Anthem, etc.). Since the 8801 basically uses the same digital boards as the 4520, guess what, it has DDSC. In fact, in terms of output stages, it could be argued that the 8801's version of DDSC is somewhat superior since it uses amplifiers made with discrete parts (inside the HDAM modules) instead of Operational Amplifiers (OP).
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post #1600 of 5770
1/7/13 at 3:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

A question on the ethernet hub.
Is that 1 input and 3 outputs. or is it a wifi input and 4 ethernet outputs?
Could somebody explain the ethernet hub on the 8801 and what its designed for.

Each port is both input and output. I used port 4 (bottom most port) to connect to a switch. I should be able to use the other ports to connect other devices but haven't done so.y port 1 doesn't work (no LED), so I'll be exchanging my Marantz. There is no WiFi.
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post #1601 of 5770
1/7/13 at 5:00am
Hey guys quick little question....I notice that the unit......after Imthought it was turned off...which is wahta I want to do ..was displaying some bars in the windows.....then I opened the door and its displaying "multi zone"...nothing else. I sthis normal? How do i turn this off?
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post #1602 of 5770
1/7/13 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

A question on the ethernet hub.
Is that 1 input and 3 outputs. or is it a wifi input and 4 ethernet outputs?
Could somebody explain the ethernet hub on the 8801 and what its designed for.

I'm having a bit of a problem with it myself.

Apparantly, it can work as a hub when it's configured as "Always On". This is on page 142.

Where some of my confusion stems is from page 33 where it doesn't really look like a hub configuration. More like inputs from audio networks....which is different than inputs from the Tivo, Dish 722, Panasonic VT50, etc.

I'm hard wired through a switch to a router, then on to the modem....which hasn't worked as I'm locking up either the router or modem.

Will take another look when I return this afternoon.
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post #1603 of 5770
1/7/13 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I'm having a bit of a problem with it myself.
Apparantly, it can work as a hub when it's configured as "Always On". This is on page 142.
Where some of my confusion stems is from page 33 where it doesn't really look like a hub configuration. More like inputs from audio networks....which is different than inputs from the Tivo, Dish 722, Panasonic VT50, etc.
I'm hard wired through a switch to a router, then on to the modem....which hasn't worked as I'm locking up either the router or modem.
Will take another look when I return this afternoon.

That is exactly whats confusing me as well, all inputs is what it appears to me and everything locks up?
Maybe going from router directly to one of those inputs makes the other 3 inputs outputs? Confused as well. I guess I have always worked with a switcher and not a hub is my problem and just don't understand it.
Edited by OzzieP - 1/7/13 at 6:28am
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post #1604 of 5770
1/7/13 at 6:53am
Does Audyssey on the 8001 allow you to EQ the subs alone; without affecting the mains? Or, does it EQ all or none?
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post #1605 of 5770
1/7/13 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzieP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I'm having a bit of a problem with it myself.
Apparantly, it can work as a hub when it's configured as "Always On". This is on page 142.
Where some of my confusion stems is from page 33 where it doesn't really look like a hub configuration. More like inputs from audio networks....which is different than inputs from the Tivo, Dish 722, Panasonic VT50, etc.
I'm hard wired through a switch to a router, then on to the modem....which hasn't worked as I'm locking up either the router or modem.
Will take another look when I return this afternoon.

That is exactly whats confusing me as well, all inputs is what it appears to me and everything locks up?
Maybe going from router directly to one of those inputs makes the other 3 inputs outputs? Confused as well. I guess I have always worked with a switcher and not a hub is my problem and just don't understand it.

The difference between a hub and a switch is that a hub always outputs all packets on all of its ports (except for the port that the packet came in on), while a switch learns what Ethernet (MAC) addresses are on which ports and only outputs a packet on the port where it has seen the desired destination Ethernet (MAC) address.

By default, the power-hungry "network always on" setting is enabled. If you want the hub used in the 8801 and 4520 to be powered down when the pre/pro or AVR is put into standby, you have to enable "Off In Standby". (See page 142 of the 8801's manual.) If the hub is not always on, you won't be able to communicate through it to other devices, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it confuses routers.
Edited by Selden Ball - 1/7/13 at 7:13am
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post #1606 of 5770
1/7/13 at 7:39am
^^
It if uses any appreciable power at all, you are better off using a switch.
This looks like one of those features that will not make it into the next version wink.gif

- Rich
Edited by RichB - 1/7/13 at 8:28am
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post #1607 of 5770
1/7/13 at 8:02am
Turning off a switch shouldn't' confuse any in-home routers (or any others for that matter).

There is no reason to replace a switch with a router. There is a argument for a dedicated standalone switch however if you need devices to be on when the pre-pro is off.

If you want the switch powered off when the pre-pro is off, reasonable candidates for being connected to it's switch are devices that would only ever be used when the pre-pro was turned on. Possible examples in my setup -
Connected to pre-pro - Oppo BRD, Game Console. I'd never use them without pre-pro on.
Not good to connect to pre-pro (if powering off) -Dune Media Player - My server access it's index for updates when system is otherwise off; Lutron RadioRA2 master controller, may control lights without pre-pro on.

That said, how much power does it take to run, on?
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post #1608 of 5770
1/7/13 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Does Audyssey on the 8001 allow you to EQ the subs alone; without affecting the mains? Or, does it EQ all or none?

Just like all other Audyssey implementations:  All or none.

OTOH, the Audyssey options for the 8801 include "Audyssey Byp. L/R" which will not EQ the main L/R speakers.  For 2.1, this will do what you ask.

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post #1609 of 5770
1/7/13 at 8:48am
Thanks Kal-

I'm contemplating the purchase of the 8801 vs a non-Audyssey equipped pre/pro + an Anti-Mode to tame my bass peaks.
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post #1610 of 5770
1/7/13 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

Here's the problem, as I see it. Comparing any SSP is next to impossible... Is there cost-effective, reliable way to compare SSPs at home? I can't think of a way to AB them.
-Brian

I know my auditory and color memory is all but useless. When I compare products I get a unit for a weekend. I install the potential purchase and sit down to listen or watch some favorite well-known media for an hour or two. Or three. I have a pad of paper (remember those?) at my side. I write down what ever thoughts occur seemingly spontaneously. No matter what they relate to. I do take breaks for any reason, I am not glued to the sofa.

After that I go back to my equipment and repeat the process with the same media. I may do this change and revert more than once.

When I review my notes I usually find much more relevant and interesting material in my observations after I return to my own equipment. I have found that my impressions frequently do not match my expectations nor correlate to product cost, reputation, or others reviews.

And all I care about it how it sounds or looks to me.
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post #1611 of 5770
1/7/13 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Can you elaborate in more detail this "mice" process? tongue.gif
When you run it again, confirm that setting to NO actually works as designed as that may not be the case.

Clearly that is not going to work unless you do it twice, once with blank paper and once with lined paper. Try both ways and you will see significant differences in your observations!
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post #1612 of 5770
1/7/13 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

reasonable candidates for being connected to it's switch are devices that would only ever be used when the pre-pro was turned on. Possible examples in my setup - Connected to pre-pro - Oppo BRD, Game Console. I'd never use them without pre-pro on
same here. I used a NetGear switch with my AV7005 set-up for integrating my BluRay players and DLNA drives, etc.,...However, having the built-in hub/switch on the AV8801 makes for a slightly neater set-up in my rack. Port 1 will connect to my router. Port 2 will be connected to an Oppo BDP-105. I have my PC, DLNA drives, Powerline Adapters (with various devices) connected to my router as well. So far all devices seem to function on my network okay, surprisingly.
Edited by WestCoastD - 1/7/13 at 10:22am
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post #1613 of 5770
1/7/13 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jam88 View Post

You're missing the point that I was trying to make. Why are they talking about AL24, an ancestor of AL32, on the Marantz UK support website if Marantz "supposedly" doesn't use it? Kind of makes one wonder...
I do not know why Marantz posted info on Denon’s processing. ss9001 asked if AL32 could be hiding inside the 8801. Your reply provided the link to Marantz’ website and concluded >>Marantz has had SQ notoriety for a long time, so I don't see how they could not implement a digital audio up-sampling technology that has the potential to improve the sound of their products, plus considering that they use the same Analog Devices DSPs as the Denon 4520.<< The implication, it seemed to me, was that Marantz is using the same upsampling as Denon. I was simply pointing out that Marantz is not claiming upsampling for their Alpha process.
Quote:
They may not call it by the generic term, preferring to use instead a marketing trademarked name such as AL32 but if you read what they're describing, it is in fact: upsampling. Look on Wikipedia for a description of the technique. Even the description of AL32 on Denon's web page describes upsampling.
Yes, AL32 is upsampling. I never said otherwise. But AL24 is not, and neither is Alpha.
Quote:
You'll find the term interpolation of data used on both referenced web pages above, a dead give away that they're talking about upsampling.
Not a dead giveaway to me when they explicitly describe it in terms of extending wordlength, which is another form of interpolation.
Quote:
You're confusing oversampling with upsampling, which are two different techniques.

The following article further describes upsampling versus oversampling.
Thank you for the link. As you can see in Fig 1, oversampling interpolates more points, same as upsampling.
Quote:
This may also work but I feel that observing the waveform aliasing as I suggested earlier may be simpler.
It will not be easy if the DAC's oversampling does what Fig 1 describes.
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post #1614 of 5770
1/7/13 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I'm having a bit of a problem with it myself.
Apparantly, it can work as a hub when it's configured as "Always On". This is on page 142.
Where some of my confusion stems is from page 33 where it doesn't really look like a hub configuration. More like inputs from audio networks....which is different than inputs from the Tivo, Dish 722, Panasonic VT50, etc.
I'm hard wired through a switch to a router, then on to the modem....which hasn't worked as I'm locking up either the router or modem.
Will take another look when I return this afternoon.

I've had good results using the Hub, its setup as follows Comcast modem>Netgear Router> Powerline Adapter>8801(top port)>Oppo 105 (port 2). I do have the 8801 set to "always on" and its worked very well and all that I've streamed from the Oppo looks great!

hope this helps!
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post #1615 of 5770
1/7/13 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Does Audyssey on the 8001 allow you to EQ the subs alone; without affecting the mains? Or, does it EQ all or none?

Yes! this was a feature I didn't know was available from Audyssey and i'm not sure if its available on other pre/pro's as its never discussed? I like you was contemplating getting the "antimode" for the subs and leaving my mains out of the equation because I felt the Acoustic panels I had installed gave me great sound. upon receiving the 8801 and after running Audyssey the Lf/Rf bypass option appears and it will apply Audyssey to all else. To me this is a priceless option to have as there are times when I would like to have a sub with my more than capable mains! I set the bass to lfe+main for my 2ch music playback and have the best of both worlds (unaffected mains and what Audyssey brings to the bass) and it sounds great!
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post #1616 of 5770
1/7/13 at 11:45am
Specifications comparison of AVP-A1HDCI & AV-8801
AV-8801
Analog
S/N Ratio 105dB
Freq. Response (Analog In) 10Hz - 100kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Distortion: 0.005 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz) (DIRECT mode)
Digital
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB

AVP-A1HDCI
Analog
S/N Ratio 102dB
Freq. Response (Analog In) 10Hz - 100kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Distortion: 0.005 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz) (DIRECT mode)
Digital
Total harmonic distortion — 0.005% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic Range - 110dB
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post #1617 of 5770
1/7/13 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosano View Post

Hey guys quick little question....I notice that the unit......after Imthought it was turned off...which is wahta I want to do ..was displaying some bars in the windows.....then I opened the door and its displaying "multi zone"...nothing else. I sthis normal? How do i turn this off?
Those are zone 2-4. Manually turn them off. If using a Harmony, then do not use discreet on. Use the input command you want to turn it on.
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post #1618 of 5770
1/7/13 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Does Audyssey on the 8001 allow you to EQ the subs alone; without affecting the mains? Or, does it EQ all or none?
As stated before, there is a setting to bypass L&R Mains.----Answered already lol oops.
Edited by Geronimo.USMC - 1/7/13 at 12:50pm
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post #1619 of 5770
1/7/13 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Yes! this was a feature I didn't know was available from Audyssey and i'm not sure if its available on other pre/pro's as its never discussed? I like you was contemplating getting the "antimode" for the subs and leaving my mains out of the equation because I felt the Acoustic panels I had installed gave me great sound. upon receiving the 8801 and after running Audyssey the Lf/Rf bypass option appears and it will apply Audyssey to all else. To me this is a priceless option to have as there are times when I would like to have a sub with my more than capable mains! I set the bass to lfe+main for my 2ch music playback and have the best of both worlds (unaffected mains and what Audyssey brings to the bass) and it sounds great!

Thanks Audiofan for your input. It is definitely good information to help me make an informed decision.

David
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post #1620 of 5770
1/7/13 at 12:51pm
What if you're playing 5.1 and want to turn off Audyssey on everything but the sub?

Is this where Audyssey Pro comes in? ....and about $650 goes out? smile.gif
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