Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 55

I tried this last night. It will output 5.1 channels only as I wanted, but guess what. Stupid Sony. In their infinite wisdom, My CX7000ES Mega changers do not decode 7.1. I have two of them. They always decode/downsample internally 5.1 on DTS HD MASTER, grrrrr....Back to bit-streaming, and turning the rears off in 5.1.......

One reason the AVP cost more was that it's designed so its electronics hardware could be easily upgradable (e.g. circuit boards plugged into sockets, etc). The additional complexity of that mechanical design and thus the increased difficulty of assembling the system on a production line was just more expensive. Which meant fewer people would buy it which meant they had to charge even more in order to make a profit.

The 8801 is *not* designed to have its hardware easily upgraded, which results in a less complex and thus less expensive hardware design.

AVP is also fully balanced and a very high end dual differential dac setup. Maybe the higher SNr of the 8801 is due to the copper sheilding

Good question! If that's the case that's a very pricey option:D

Okay, thanks.

I had a AV7005 and had buzz when I started hooking up HDMI cables. Steve suggested a 8801 or 7701, and he said that he was helping a guy out (he wasn't sure of the AVS Forum Avatar name) who was having similar issues. I even got a Marantz SR7005 and tried connecting that to my Outlaw 7700 amp and the buzz was worse. Running that receiver off its own amp section and not using my amp is crystal clear, although it lacks the punch that I am used to with my amp.

Call me silly, but I can use pretty much ANY audio cables with the RCA ends to connect the receiver to my amp to trouble shoot it again? I have some nice Monoprice Rg6 cables that I used, not sure if they are compatable. I also have some component video (red, green, blue) cables with the RCA ends, would those work ?

You can use just about any type of RCA cable when connecting analog audio signals. I wouldn't use really skinny wires for long runs, though. Coax video cables work fine for audio, but twisted-pair audio cables don't work so well for analog video.

Quick question: does the 8801 run hot, warm, or lukewarm? I would like to put it in a cabinet (Salamander Synergy) with only 1" clearance on top, but the back is open and the front and sides are perforated metal, so it should get good ventilation on all sides but top. Will this work?

Pumped about tonight's ga,e! Go ND!!! Should have amazing sound using DSX.

My 8801 sits at the top of an open rack and I would say its borderline warm and at the top of whatever the lukewarm range is, now in an enclosed space that may be different the perforation may or may not help.

Go Bama !!

It matters to many.

Agreed.

I use RCA's but I agree.

So guys here are the specs what do you think? Not opinions on how i think it sounds vs, sound proofing, speakers, copper, DAC's etc...

Well? Are there other specs to compare?

Originally Posted by dahlgren

Specifications comparison of AVP-A1HDCI & AV-8801
AV-8801
Analog
S/N Ratio 105dB
Freq. Response (Analog In) 10Hz - 100kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Distortion: 0.005 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz) (DIRECT mode)
Digital
Total harmonic distortion — 0.008 % (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic range — 100 dB
AVP-A1HDCI
Analog
S/N Ratio 102dB
Freq. Response (Analog In) 10Hz - 100kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Distortion: 0.005 % (20 Hz - 20 kHz) (DIRECT mode)
Digital
Total harmonic distortion — 0.005% (1 kHz, at 0 dB)
S/N ratio — 102 dB
Dynamic Range - 110dB
Edited by dahlgren - 1/8/13 at 10:31am

Roger, we all want to know if Marantz is perhaps using AL32 or AL24 for that matter in the 8801 and indeed they're not claiming any use of those technologies. I'm just raising the possibility, as was ss9001 (Steve), that they may make use of the technology without any claims in order to preserve some brand differentiation for the Denon label. It's speculation at this point but nevertheless it remains a possibility because of the almost identical design of the digital front-end (minus the Denon Link).


Extension, i.e. an increase of the word length, is a part, albeit optional, of the upsampling technique. Interpolation is the lingo used to describe the action of inserting additional artificially derived sample(s) between two original samples and is a fundamental part of upsampling technologies.

The Denon Alpha processor technology was the first PCM upsampling technology developed by Denon and would only increase the word length from 16 to 20 bits. Then they further developed the design of the Alpha processor and AL24 became the second iteration of their upsampling technology; it could extend the word length to 24 bits and the sampling rate up to 192 kHz.

AL24 is described in many professional reviews and even some Denon gear owner manuals as upsampling technology. These last few years, Denon tends to not too often specifically refer to it as upsampling in their literature, in order to preserve some cachet (market differentiation) since many other manufacturers have also offered various upsampling technologies for some years now. I have an old Panasonic DVD player from 2001 (DVDRP-91) that also does upsampling; Panasonic called the feature: Re-Master.

This Denon AVR-5805 review from Gene DellaSala on Audiholics mentions: "The Denon upsamples all 44kHz signals to 96kHz / 24 bit as per their AL24 bit process. In fact, Denon's Advanced AL24 Processing handles up to 192kHz and 24 bit extension with real time interpolation." Gene DellaSala is an experienced EE.

This other review of the Denon AVP-A1HDCI by John E. Johnson of Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity says: "Denon's Advanced AL 24 Processing upsamples all the audio to 24 bit.".

This Denon UK brochure for the AVR-4308DAB describes Advanced AL24 in these words: "The Field Programmable Gate Array includes the latest Denon exclusive AL processing algorithms. Advanced AL24 expands the resolution of standard audio signals (CD: 16 bit) to 24 bit (bit extension) and also increases the scanning rate to 192 kHz (upsampling), on all channels.".

The manual for the Denon DBP-2012UDCI universal disc player clearly states on page 48 in the "About Advanced AL24 Processing" paragraph: "In addition to data expansion to 24 bit, it conducts natural interpolation processing with no loss of original data by digital upsampling."

If these quotes don't convince you that AL24 is an upsampling technology, nothing will. Similar references can be found for the Denon Alpha processor, describing it as an upsampling technology. This is the marketing world we live in for the better or worse. All these companies are trying to make their technologies look like they're the best thing since sliced bread and that they're the only ones that have unlocked the secrets to making it. So they use all kinds of cool esoteric sounding marketing monikers to differentiate themselves from the competition. Not that they're not real technological improvements, they often are.


Yes they both do similar things and achieve similar goals but through different techniques.
You may be right, it may not be easy. I hope that my brother's 30 year old scope still works. It will take some time though before I can get around to it.
Edited by jam88 - 1/7/13 at 4:23pm

On a different note, time to unpack after I eat dinner, as my 8801 showed up this afternoon.

I had a 7005 with hum issues, but when I hooked up my dish rcvr with rgb and a digital-coax for audio, all was good. The dish receiver was passing the "HUM" through the unit and onto the marantz.

Maybe it makes more sense to reverse it. We know that the up sampling/extending part of AL24/AL32 is always used on denon products if any digital work is done. The reason for this is to keep the rest of the audio chain simple. You don 't have to support all the different speeds and depths this is the reason that denon has been very stable in this area where some other brands had problems handling weird speeds and depths. Since the 4520 is the base of the 8801 the question is why would they turn it off and make their life more difficult ? It seems logical they just left it on either unchanged or slightly changed and don't talk about it.

Daniel.

You keep looking for answers we can't provide and probably nobody will. You can compare any other specs, number of powersupplies, types of power supplies, number of dacs, size of the box, weight it will not give you the answer.

I keep claiming that on paper both have features the other are missing and that if you look at the parts/buildup the AVP clearly has more (but cost more) 'specs'.

I got my AVP 5 years ago and with the updates i don't see a logic to even consider the 8801 but if i would have to buy today i would be less sure for one do you buy a product that is end of life ? or one that is just introduced would be a big question for me.

My gut feeling is that if you are not convinced by your AVP and this will keep nagging you then sell it and get a 8801 you might miss the AVP but at least you won't have that nagging question

Daniel.

I totally agree.
It may be. But you can also increase word length without upsampling, like with Alpha, and as you will see, AL24.
That is the description for Advanced AL24 processing.
Perhaps people use the term 'AL24' casually and do not feel the need to state Advanced, or maybe they do not realize there was an older flavor without upsampling. Would be completely reasonable in the context of a review.
I think we should both be fairly convinced that there are two kinds of AL24 processing, and we need to be precise in how we distinguish between them. Would that not be a fair statement?

.
Edited by Roger Dressler - 1/7/13 at 11:49pm

Makes sense.

If you go back and read my first two posts on this subject, this was (and still is) my point of contention, albeit expressed somewhat differently.

for a potential buyer, that's what I would hope & I agree is more logical.

they *could* remove the code that implements it, but then the issue you raise of efficiently supporting all the different sampling rates & depths & still provide minimal jitter or artifacts returns.

Pioneer did something similar years ago, even before the SC Ice amp era. and in the Susano SC-09, Pioneer made a pretty big deal about their SRC "sample rate converter" upsampling & reclocking on all sources using a BB chip, which they claimed helped reduce jitter, even for HDMI. Reading Denon manuals from the 5805 on, I had the impression that AL24, Advanced AL24, now AL32, were all for a similar purpose, including getting the signals to 192 hz / 24 or 32 bits.

I think it's very possible that Marantz has it but is not permitted by Denon division to market it. while they could remove the code that implements it on the DSP's for Marantz, it likely would add to costs to maintain separate inventory. Efficiency sort of drives the equation to a marketing agreement I admit, it's all speculation on my part.

but we all agree it would be nice if someone could confirm it does someone know somebody @ Marantz?
Edited by ss9001 - 1/8/13 at 5:36am

Tried it again last night and for now, it seems to be working o.k.

Since I need 5 network inputs, I couldn't take the switch out of the circuit. Only using the top network connection from the 8801 to the switch...then hardwired to a router....then wired to the modem.

Network was configured as "always on".

Don't you love a hobbie where you can do the exact same thing on two different days and get totally different results.

Is there anything necessary with this Marantz to fully disengage the video processor? Like the front panel trick on the Integra did? Or does simply setting the i/p processing to no, etc, do the trick?

I agree and the THD 0.008% I believe comes from the 32bit DAC.

And that was why I purchased it. Prior I had a McIntosh MX132 and technology passed it by. I admit the sound was great but they offer nothing in upgrades, no new matrix, Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro Logic, nothing. You are stuck with a system as is, not one upgrade. I will never buy Mac for SSP ever again. Now for amps that's an all together different story. I believe McIntosh offers the best amps out there. I can never afford new, and as used they are as good as new also hold their price.
Edited by dahlgren - 1/8/13 at 12:44pm

My Dish receiver was also causing a hum. To fix my issue, I disconnected the Dish ground cable that is outside my house. I am now able to use HDMI without any hum issues.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet but avs sells the 8801, I can tell ya though its worth a call to mike Garrett at avs. Awesome customer service!

T
Thanks so much. Your thoughts and options help considerably. I agree with the age of the AVP and believe its reached its pentacle. Can't believe and I'm so appreciative Denon built into their system an upgrade path. My MX132 had zero upgrades, obsolete the day I purchased it.

I would like to go 11.2 and have full 32bit processing, no downsampling, with my brand new Marantz UD9004.

I do not want to jeopardize SQ in any way, either digital or analog. So this is where I hesitate.

All Mac amps without full balanced XLR inputs so that at least for now is not an issue.
Denon AVP-A1HDCI
Marantz UD9004

2ea MC 7106 Six-Channel Power Amplifier (bridged mono to front, center, surrounds)
(2 ch to height)
1ea MC 7270 Stereo Power Amplifier (bridged mono to sub)
2nd sub powered
1ea MC 7100 Stereo Power Amplifier (back)

Tannoy Defininition DC8T (front)
Tannoy Definition DC8 (surround)
Tannoy Definition DC6 LCR (center)
Tannoy Revolution DC6 (height & back)
McIntosh SL1 (powered sub)
McIntosh HT-2 (sub)
Edited by dahlgren - 1/8/13 at 10:56am

Till lightning hits ?

You might try disconnecting the ground on the satelite connection on the outside of your home. The tech did it for me and it removed that hum. That was one of three different source hums that I had. My plasma TV was one of them (the loudest of the three). I fixed the TV hum by plugging the TV into the same outlet as my preamp. The last hum I was able to get rid of by getting a AV8801.

HD Radio is available for both AM and FM stations that choose to broadcast it. With HD FM, there can be several subchannels available. You can search for FM Stations using several different modes: Auto; HD-Auto; Analog-Auto; Manual; Analog-Manual; selected with the Options button. You also direct tune by entering the frequency. You can use the +/- Tune button on the remote to go through any of these modes. If you land on a FM station with multiple subchannels, wait until you see HD1, then use the +/- Tune button to select the next subchannel, such as HD2. Any stations can be saved to a preset memory using the Options button. Stations in memory can be selected by pressing the Channel +/- rocker. Some FM HD stations have an AM station on one of their subs.

I was a little dubious about the performance of HD FM on the 8801. I hooked up the FM antenna wire that came with the 8801 and got a ton of stations. This led me to repair and install my Winegard 10-element FM antenna with no preamp. It is on my roof below my TV antennas. I am 50 miles from the transmitters in Philadelphia and I can easily receive all of the major HD FM stations. The quality of the HD FM can vary widely, but most decent stations use a fairly wide bandwidth for the transmission. The maximum possible is 400 kbps, but no station uses more than 300 kbps. Considering that internet stations commonly use 64-128kbps, the quality can be much higher on HD FM. Moreover, the stations come in even when the internet is down.