Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 65

I believe it does, but I have not got mine yet.

My dealer sent a spreadsheet with remote codes. It includes code to change the audio inputs:

Marantz_AV_SR_NR_IR_CODE_V05.xls 1897k .xls file

- Rich

Kal, might you be reviewing the Oppo BDP-105 in-combination with the AV8801?

That is bizarre.
How would Marantz know how your computer came to have its IP?

I start my DHCP IP's at 100 and use the first 100 for fixed servers, HTPC, etc.
I use my Router's IP as the name server and that works fine.
Perhaps it was a name server issue.

- Rich
Edited by RichB - 1/17/13 at 1:44pm

I only use DHCP for WIFI connected, or devices that cannot be set statically, or are mobile. DHCP delivers the lowest IP address available, that is why for non experienced network people it's best to use an octet above 50, but if you only have 10 possible devices you could start lower. But who has 200+ devices in their home. To be safe start at 200, you will have 54 consecutive static devices available.
Edited by dahlgren - 1/17/13 at 2:15pm

exm, Maybe your Gateway or subnet mask were incorrect. The advantage of DHCP is it automagically sets everything up for you. However, if you can handle getting your hands dirty with a static IP, it's worth it.

I also set up my server, printer and routers with static IPs and then all the phones / PCs in the house get assigned IP addresses via DHCP from .10 upwards.

If you're not comfortable assigning static IPs and setting everything up manually i'd stay away from it. If you incorrectly set up your IP / subnet / gateway the unit will drop off the network and other computers won't be able to see it

Agreed.

Just borrow a cheap router and set the Marrantz to DHCP and see if it gets an address. What router are you using?

Exm, Yeah, sorry, the third paragraph was aimed at people in general, not yourself in particular. Sorry, can't get the quote function to work either.

I considered myself to be fairly good with networks until I tried to bridge two apple routers together to give me wifi coverage over the whole house. Both routers crashed and the network went down in epic style. Turns out the two routers needed to be directly connected without a switch in the middle. No idea why, but I guess networks are touchy like that.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is if people are asking what static IPs are and the difference between a DNS and DHCP server, they probably shouldn't be manually trying to configure things.

However if someone could link a really good beginners guide that defines all the terms and could help people 'dabble' then it'd probably be good to include it in the thread.

Probably not.

If anyone has a 9 or 11 channel set up with wides, can you check if you are getting Wide signals with DTS- MA HD Neo:X setting? I am not

Nor with TrueHD...

The Case for AL32 Processing on the Marantz AV8801

This question has been debated and has unfortunately remained unanswered by the people that hold the answer. I would like to share with the interested members of this community what I've been able to find through some online research on this subject.

There is an interesting 13-page brochure for the Denon AVP-A1HDCI A-V Processor, the DVD-A1UDCI Player and the POA-A1HDCI Power Amplifier that explains and showcases some key Denon technologies, including AL32. It also provides a short history recap of the AL processing technologies from the initial AL to the "Advanced AL32 Multi Channel". The AL32 upsampling technology (see Fig. 1), used inside the Denon AVR-4520CI AVR, expands the digital PCM audio signal's word length from 16 bits up to 32 bits thereby increasing its dynamic range and upsamples the PCM signal's sample rate up to 192 kHz through an arithmetic interpolation algorithm.




Figure 1. Denon Advanced AL32 Processing


Upsampling tasks are sometimes accomplished by running algorithms (code) inside a DSP. The Q5 ATF upsampling technology from Swiss Anagram Technologies that is licensed by Cambridge Audio and used on many of their products is a good example; the algorithm runs inside an Analog Devices SHARC 32-bit DSP. However, upsampling can also be performed on various hardware platforms. One such popular approach is through the use of Asynchronous Sample Rate Converters (ASRC) chips. Another possible although much less likely approach is by designing Application Specific Integrated Circuits (ASIC) dedicated to upsampling. Yet another hardware method for upsampling can rely on programmable logic devices such as Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA) and Complex Programmable Logic Device (CPLD) integrated circuits. FPGAs and CPLDs offer the flexibility to interconnect the thousands of logic gates integrated within the chip through the use of a programming device similar to an EPROM programmer in order to design and produce custom digital circuitry. Digital signal processing tasks can also be performed inside FPGAs and CPLDs programmed with the required designs. For lower production volumes this method becomes more economically sensible than designing an ASIC and mass producing it in huge quantities. FPGAs and CPLDs also provide a more flexible path than ASICs to address design issues that may creep up during the development cycle and specially post-production where changes can be made by modifying the programming in the field instead of having to produce ASICs dies with the new design and starting a new production run.

Denon has always implemented their upsampling technologies on hardware. Ever since the AL24 flavors (AL24 block diagram) up to the AL32, they've processed upsampling tasks on Altera produced FPGA chips according to the brochures referenced above or in the case of the AVR-4520CI, on the Altera MAX V CPLD as can be inferred by the inventory of the main chips AVS member AustinJerry took from his opened AVR-4520CI. Figure 2 below shows a block diagram of the audio processing chain inside Denon's flagship AVP-A1HDCI A-V Preamp/Processor. You can see that the Advanced AL24 Processing runs inside the FPGA chip along with other tasks.




Figure 2. Denon AVP-A1HDCI A-V Preamp/Processor Audio Processing


As has been mentioned before by many, the Denon 4520 uses the same audio digital PCB board as the Marantz 8801 except for the missing RCA phono jack for the Denon Link. In fact they use the same PCB part number (320X141) as you can see from this picture on Denon's EU website and figure 3 below (on the lower left hand side of the PCB - north-east of the toroidal transformer). Also note on figure 3, the Altera CPLD that I've encircled in red. You can take a look at the Altera CPLD on AVS member Chucka's close-up photos of his opened AVR-4520CI.




Figure 3. Marant AV8801 Internal Photo Showing the Digital PCBs


Can the observations above lead us to conclude that the AV8801 is also equipped with the AL32 upsampling technology? Not completely, after all these two units must use at the very least slightly different firmwares to account for minor hardware differences. On the one hand, the Marantz unit is missing RCA phono jack for the Denon Link HD found on the Denon with the associated software to enable that feature through its menu system. On the other hand, the the Denon does not have the M-XPort found on the Marantz that allows connection of the RX101 wireless receiver to play back music from a Bluetooth device and the firmware needed to support this feature and operation from the menu. It's possible that even if the CPLD on the Marantz contains the same design as on the Denon, that a switch inside the firmware bypasses the upsampling circuitry (if it can be bypassed by design). It's also possible, although it would be an unusual and odd practice considering the use of the same part number for the two digital front-end PCBs on both brands, that the Marantz's CPLD may have the upsampling circuitry omitted from its design while preserving the other needed clocking an PLL circuitry.

However, if the Denon products always process PCM audio through AL24/AL32 as danielo mentions, considering that the digital front-end PCBs have the same part number and that manufacturers often seek to reduce production costs, it becomes very clear that the probability exists that the Marantz AV8801 possesses AL32 upsampling technology. One sure way to find out would be to connect a digital scope to the PCM audio data entry pins on the DACs and observe what sampling rates and word length data enters the DAC. That's not an easy tasks to accomplish on a small surface mounted DAC with its pins spaced at less than 1 mm apart, unless one has specialized clip probes for surface mounted ICs.

So I'll leave everyone to draw their own conclusions. I can already hear the mumbling. ... OK I'll stick my neck out and put my flame suit on. Considering the facts uncovered, I believe with a degree of certainty of 80% that the Marantz AV8801 does indeed include AL32 processing and that D+M does not advertize it to preserve brand differentiation for Denon.

jam88

Nice writeup.

I wonder if there is a less painful way to test output?

Indeed a very nice writeup we can use in later threads thanks.

A few remarks :

It was clear to all of us that the whole part of the discussion was about the 3DSP's and the FPGA's. Now for people who don't know this FPGA's are hardware but you kind of put hardware inside as if it was software (programmable hardware). As a result both the DSP's and the FPGA can be 100% the same between the 4520 and 8801 but that doesn't 100% mean they work/are the same. The question is did marantz tune/change the basic platform they got from denon, for the analog we know the facts we can see them in parts and wires but for this its tricky since if they made changes its invisible by its nature, its 'software' inside the DSP's and FPGA.

3 options :

1) They didn't change anything and either admit it or not. why change something that works.

2) They 'tuned' the software by turning parts of the decoding and/or AL32 off or 'made it better' and will claim this when pushed

3) They turned AL32 off in all that it does, i think changes of this is small it has many downsides as pointed out before.


I think its either 1 or 2, but fact is its nearly impossible for us to tell and or proof. It could be 1 and they will claim 2 by giving it its own name or twist. We don't know and personally i don't think we should care too much.

Daniel.

The point was about averting problems with HDMI-flakey cable boxes. If you don't have a problem using HDMI in your setup then knock yourself out.

^^
+1

agreed

my own comcast motorola dvr works just fine with HDMI. but I chose to keep it component & opt. I don't have a 3D set (yet) and what I've noticed with 2 different motorola DVR's is switching channels add a few seconds delay while the HDCP gets re-established & since I'm a channel flipper, it was an aggravation avoided by staying component & opt.

to those who thought that's ancient, let me remind them that component video is capable of 1080p/60 hz, more than 2D BD data rates and I don't know about them, but comcast sure isn't broadcasting DTS-MA/TrueHD they stated they "wouldn't put up with problems" & my response is with component video & dig audio, there are NO problems to begin with & none that will happen - the whole issue goes away and the user loses nothing. so in those cases where cable/sat box HDMI is flaky, why beat your head up against the wall?

of course, 3D may be a different matter.
Edited by ss9001 - 1/18/13 at 6:19am

Not exactly sure what you mean by using a free IP in the range...so taking a stab here. Normally you assign a static IP that is outside of the DHCP range/pool.

I set my DHCP range to 192.168.1.100 - .105, then my AV7005 is set to 192.168.1.110. Network connectivity and updating work fine.
Edited by whoaru99 - 1/18/13 at 6:26am

I recommend setting your DHCP to 192.168.1.100 - .254.
This give you 100 ifxed IPs which is plenty. Group them by 10's if you want some organization.
If you have phones, pads, computers, etc you need more than 5 addresses.
Google "Advanced IP scanner" it is a free utility that display the IP addresses and associated devices.

- Rich

I have a TiVO and Uverse box feeding mine, no issues with either. Anyway, changing channels does not (should not) cause a HDMI handshake. More likely what you are seeing is a Video sync to different resolutions when channel surfing between 480, 720 and 1080 channels. That will cause a few seconds while the VP resyncs, wherever the VP lives. Mine is a Lumagen and even it has to resync the video. The Uverse box unfortunately forces you to choose an output resolution. And this dummied down POS for the masses up scales the content (or down scales) to whatever it's set to. So channel surfing on it causes no resync because it stays at 1080 out. My TiVo works flawlessly and passes the video unaltered, it's feed if from the Antenna, arguably the best signal there is these days. Ironically. I think you can set the Tivo to auto-scale, too but I don't so I don't remember.

Interesting stuff JAM88.

It there are downsides, then 3 is likely.
Unless they want to preserve brand differentiation, I think if t were on, they would be talking about it.

Agreed, it probably does not matter much so long as it sounds good

- Rich

that's great. so...just because it works for you means those that have problems are stupid for not using HDMI? or should they change cable/sat companies, if that's an option, just to use a cable?

I'm not arguing against your & JimP's position, but arguing that it doesn't apply to everyone, the same as what whoaru99 said.

you kind of made my point with component video none of that happens anyway....no reasons for a delay, no workarounds for a delay needed because there is no delay.

whatever the reason, why should J6P endure a minor setback in his viewing experience just for the convenience of a cable? just because you have the money for a Lumagen and are willing to change resolutions, doesn't apply to the normal person.

you guys are trying to make way too much out of a very simple suggestion to those who have or want to avoid problems with cable boxes
Edited by ss9001 - 1/18/13 at 7:06am

5 dynamic IPs for computers plus four static IPs for other hardware (two BD players, WDTV Live, and AV7005) more than covers my wired network needs. I have a completely isolated network scheme for wireless with its own unique DHCP range. Am running an older computer, on Smoothwall, as a standalone firewall into which I have three NICs. One for the modem connection to Smoothwall box, one for the wired system, one for the wireless system. Yes, largely overkill, but it's more about a learning experience than a strong need to do it that way.
Edited by whoaru99 - 1/18/13 at 7:21am

There is no need to restrict Dynmaic IPs to 5. This is NOT a good idea.
If you are having problems. Just increase it. It costs nothing.

- Rich

jam88, thanks for the excellent research & details. I like reading about the technology behind various gear. I'm leaning toward your conclusion, maybe not as strong as 80-20 looks like the hardware & chip is there but as you say that doesn't mean it's enabled in FW.

does anyone have a close enough personal relationship with their dealer that could persuade him/her to ask their Marantz rep? if he gets an answer, he could just say PM.
Edited by ss9001 - 1/18/13 at 7:47am