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Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 8

post #211 of 5769
10/26/12 at 2:15pm
^^^ this....

when the words "huge", "major", "night and day" get thrown around, they'd better be backed by some objective results...

oh well...
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post #212 of 5769
10/26/12 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo24 View Post

It was coming directly from someone who works for Marantz. He also seemed to think that Can/US pricing would be on par. Will have to wait and see.

Totally awesome! I asked my dealer to put in an order!!!! Christmas might be coming a little late this year but that is ok!!! Well worth the wait!!
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post #213 of 5769
10/26/12 at 3:54pm
I have one on order too. Was told "expect to write a check in under 60 days" biggrin.gif
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post #214 of 5769
10/26/12 at 6:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

Ahhhh that already sounds better! Phew smile.gif

Yep! just got back from my dealer and the $3600/Dec is what he said as well and some nice things to say about a newer version of XT32 thats supposed to reach futher pass the current limited range, I'm not fimilar with RC but it sounds good , well looks like I'm back to plan A:D
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post #215 of 5769
10/26/12 at 7:41pm
^^^

new version of xt32?
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post #216 of 5769
10/26/12 at 10:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Yep! just got back from my dealer and the $3600/Dec is what he said as well and some nice things to say about a newer version of XT32 thats supposed to reach futher pass the current limited range, I'm not fimilar with RC but it sounds good , well looks like I'm back to plan A:D

Soooounding better all the time!!!!
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post #217 of 5769
10/26/12 at 11:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
new version of xt32?
Dealer rubbish...
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post #218 of 5769
10/26/12 at 11:27pm
For Marantz this might be the first prepro with XT32. So in a way it reaches further down compare to previous models? smile.gif
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post #219 of 5769
10/27/12 at 1:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Dealer rubbish...

I remember he said that it takes in to account if you are using sheet rock or other various surface materials and goes pass the previous frequency range! If true we shall see when the announcement comes. Personally I wouldn't know if I needed this are not since this will be my first go with RC, my room is already well treated and I just want to put icing on my cake!
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post #220 of 5769
10/27/12 at 1:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

For Marantz this might be the first prepro with XT32. So in a way it reaches further down compare to previous models? smile.gif

Not sure what they are doing with this model (and doubt it has a newer version of XT32 that would pr mistake from audyssey) but moving it up in price and features makes sense to me. The $3500-$4000 seems part of the making marantz more high end vs denon within D&M and take some of the sales the denon avp had or better the never released concept of a denon avp-cix.

Just my 2 cents,

Daniel.
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post #221 of 5769
10/27/12 at 4:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I remember he said that it takes in to account if you are using sheet rock or other various surface materials and goes pass the previous frequency range! If true we shall see when the announcement comes. Personally I wouldn't know if I needed this are not since this will be my first go with RC, my room is already well treated and I just want to put icing on my cake!

From what you describe above, your dealer may be referencing Audyssey LFC which purports to limit bass transmission. It isn't part of XT32 which will remain the same as all of the other XT32 implementations and LFC is already available on the Denon 4520. Based on the limited measurements posted in the 4520 thread, I doubt it takes "into account" architecture or construction materials - it appears that LFC reduces the bass output across the range most commonly transmitted through a structure.
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post #222 of 5769
10/27/12 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by discodol View Post

All I can tell you is when I upgraded from the Oppo 93 to the Oppo 95 I could tell a huge difference in how things sounded. And it was not the placebo effect, I am talking major difference. And on the Oppo 95 I can tell a major difference between HDIM audio output, multi channel audio output, and analog audio output.

There is no difference between the HDMI output on the 93 and 95, period. Go to the in-depth Secrets of HT HiFi review.
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post #223 of 5769
10/27/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I remember he said that it takes in to account if you are using sheet rock or other various surface materials and goes pass the previous frequency range! If true we shall see when the announcement comes. Personally I wouldn't know if I needed this are not since this will be my first go with RC, my room is already well treated and I just want to put icing on my cake!

From what you describe above, your dealer may be referencing Audyssey LFC which purports to limit bass transmission. It isn't part of XT32 which will remain the same as all of the other XT32 implementations and LFC is already available on the Denon 4520. Based on the limited measurements posted in the 4520 thread, I doubt it takes "into account" architecture or construction materials - it appears that LFC reduces the bass output across the range most commonly transmitted through a structure.

this... and i interpret the limited measurements we have available the same way as bfreedma does... it appears to merely be a modified dynamic compression scheme...

as there doesn't seem to any way to "tell" audyssey what the architectural considerations of the room are, it's unlikely that it's taking them into consideration... and unless measured from outside the room, it would have no ideaof whether the bass is "contained" or not...
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post #224 of 5769
10/27/12 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

There is no difference between the HDMI output on the 93 and 95, period. Go to the in-depth Secrets of HT HiFi review.

"All I can tell you is when I upgraded from the Oppo 93 to the Oppo 95 I could tell a huge difference in how things sounded."

I should have been more precise, the difference I heard between the 93 and 95 was on the analog outputs only, not HDMI.


"And on the Oppo 95 I can tell a major difference between HDIM audio output, multi channel audio output, and analog audio output."

Listening to the same flac file on the 95 I can here a major difference between the HDMI audio output, the multi channel audio output and the stereo analog output. I can switch from HDMI to multichannel and the sound changes for the better, I can change from the multi channel to stereo and the sounds gets better.
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post #225 of 5769
10/27/12 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

So you're the one human being on the planet immune from the placebo effect rolleyes.gif
An overactive imagination is no substitute for measurements and/or a DBT, which would prove that what you think can determine in an unstructured sighted test is very different than what you can differentiate when proper controls are in place.

I mentioned the placebo effect in the context of the difference between what I hear playing the same flac file through HDMI and multichannel is so great it could not be the placebo effect.

And again the difference in what I hear when then switching from multichannel to analog is so great that it could not be the placebo effect.

I used to manage a quality assurance lab where we had instruments capable of measuring to the millionth of an inch. And we used to reject samples for being off by several millionths of an inch. So I appreciate the ability of being able to measure things with precision.

But since there is no way to hook up my ears to measure what I hear I guess you will just have to take my word on how I perceive differences in sound.
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post #226 of 5769
10/27/12 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by discodol View Post

I mentioned the placebo effect in the context of the difference between what I hear playing the same flac file through HDMI and multichannel is so great it could not be the placebo effect.
And again the difference in what I hear when then switching from multichannel to analog is so great that it could not be the placebo effect.
I used to manage a quality assurance lab where we had instruments capable of measuring to the millionth of an inch. And we used to reject samples for being off by several millionths of an inch. So I appreciate the ability of being able to measure things with precision.
But since there is no way to hook up my ears to measure what I hear I guess you will just have to take my word on how I perceive differences in sound.

You worked in a Q/A lab with the instruments you describe but don't believe that audio is able to be measured with precision?

Um, ok.

BTW, I'd be interested in how you determined that the signal level and associated volume out of the HDMI and MC inputs are identical. Or how you level matched what you listened to.
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post #227 of 5769
10/27/12 at 9:03am
I actually did a blind test with the 83SE, the 93 and the 95 at my old place using stereo analog outputs. Only I knew which player was being used. To minimize delays in switching, I had the same SACDs loaded in all 3 players. I was using a Bel Canto Pre3 which could allocate different volume levels for each input and I used a Ratshack SPL meter to ensure the output was normalized for all the 3 players. Each had a different order of players for 1, 2 and 3.

I thought my friends did a good job picking out their preferences.

Not everyone chose the same player as their preferred one but they could pick the players they liked consistently.

Most liked the 95 with the 83SE as second.

There was one guy who picked the 93 every time.
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post #228 of 5769
10/27/12 at 9:11am
I see this board is starting to focus in, a bit, on pricing of the 8801. We've closely followed the christ like coming of this new product for two years, now. M is going to have a hard time selling this item above the '$2,400 price point.' . In some previous posts, I touched on, what I view as significant, HDMI 1.4b ethernet enabled. It was only a few months after the 8003 was released, when 3d came along, rendering that HDMI 1.3a product as last years technology. While I will concede a move from HDMI 1.4a to (hopefully) 1.4b is not as big a leap, as 1.3a to 1.4a, this was the only reason I didn't purchase the 8003. By then, M had flooded their ('Great Recession') distribution pipeline with boxes, which are still collecting dust on retailer's shelves. The Crutchfields, of the world, are: (1) still trying to purge the 8003 and (2) not happy. And we're already seeing a discounting of the '$2,400 price point' 4520. Xt32 is the only thing justifying a higher price point for the 8801, and it's not worthy of a $600 increase. M needs to price the 8801 right.
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post #229 of 5769
10/27/12 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

You worked in a Q/A lab with the instruments you describe but don't believe that audio is able to be measured with precision?
Um, ok.
BTW, I'd be interested in how you determined that the signal level and associated volume out of the HDMI and MC inputs are identical. Or how you level matched what you listened to.

Of course audio can be measured with instruments even as unsophisticated as the Rat Shack spl meter I use to help balance my system.

But I am not aware of a device that you can connect to my body to measure what my brain has processed for me to perceive as sound.

Until then you will just have to trust me when I say I can hear a difference between what comes out of my HDMI, multichannel, and analog outputs on my Oppo 95.

BTW, the difference I hear between outputs is not related to the level, it has to do with what I describe as the quality of the sound. The HDMI output sounds flat and hollow compared to the multichannel which sounds fuller, richer, and more detailed, and then again the analog output sounds even more so.

The difference is so pronounced that I only do serious listening using the analog outputs or my phonograph.

BTW, I can also hear a difference between the same song played from a record or from a digital source. The analog outputs of the Oppo 95 are so good that I like listening to the digital rendition from that output rather than from the record. I would rather listen to the record than the HDMI output of the Oppo 95.

And I am willing to bet that I will hear a difference between my DTR-80.3 and the 8801, and if not I am sure going to enjoy the 11.2 channels of sound when watching movies!!
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post #230 of 5769
10/27/12 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by discodol View Post

Of course audio can be measured with instruments even as unsophisticated as the Rat Shack spl meter I use to help balance my system.
But I am not aware of a device that you can connect to my body to measure what my brain has processed for me to perceive as sound.
Until then you will just have to trust me when I say I can hear a difference between what comes out of my HDMI, multichannel, and analog outputs on my Oppo 95.
BTW, the difference I hear between outputs is not related to the level, it has to do with what I describe as the quality of the sound. The HDMI output sounds flat and hollow compared to the multichannel which sounds fuller, richer, and more detailed, and then again the analog output sounds even more so.
The difference is so pronounced that I only do serious listening using the analog outputs or my phonograph.
BTW, I can also hear a difference between the same song played from a record or from a digital source. The analog outputs of the Oppo 95 are so good that I like listening to the digital rendition from that output rather than from the record. I would rather listen to the record than the HDMI output of the Oppo 95.
And I am willing to bet that I will hear a difference between my DTR-80.3 and the 8801, and if not I am sure going to enjoy the 11.2 channels of sound when watching movies!!

What you describe is a classic volume/loudness variance result and your claim that volume doesn't influence how you perceive sound has been proven wrong consistently and repeatedly. Measurements have nothing to do with your, my, or anyone else's specific hearing capabilities. The differences are either there and measurable or they aren't.

Believe what you like, but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing. Classic example of expectation bias - have someone run you through a DBT and see if you get the same results.
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post #231 of 5769
10/27/12 at 11:09am
]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

What you describe is a classic volume/loudness variance result and your claim that volume doesn't influence how you perceive sound has been proven wrong consistently and repeatedly. Measurements have nothing to do with your, my, or anyone else's specific hearing capabilities. The differences are either there and measurable or they aren't.
Believe what you like, but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing. Classic example of expectation bias - have someone run you through a DBT and see if you get the same results.

I said "the difference I hear between outputs is not related to the level, it has to do with what I describe as the quality of the sound"

Volume definitely affects how I perceive sound but no matter how softly or loudly I play something I can still tell a difference in the quality of the sound coming from HDMI, multichannel, and analog outputs on the 95.

"but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing"

I did not say that nor do I think that.

In one of your earlier posts you said "Measurements also show that properly built/used solid state amps, cables and dacs are not audibly different"

Not to put words in your mouth, but if you are saying you cannot hear any difference between dacs then I will want to consider the opinions of those who can when thinking about buying a 8801.

BTW what is a DBT?
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post #232 of 5769
10/27/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiho View Post

And we're already seeing a discounting of the '$2,400 price point' 4520. Xt32 is the only thing justifying a higher price point for the 8801, and it's not worthy of a $600 increase. M needs to price the 8801 right.

XT32 is common for 4520 and 8801
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post #233 of 5769
10/27/12 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by discodol View Post

]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

What you describe is a classic volume/loudness variance result and your claim that volume doesn't influence how you perceive sound has been proven wrong consistently and repeatedly. Measurements have nothing to do with your, my, or anyone else's specific hearing capabilities. The differences are either there and measurable or they aren't.
Believe what you like, but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing. Classic example of expectation bias - have someone run you through a DBT and see if you get the same results.

I said "the difference I hear between outputs is not related to the level, it has to do with what I describe as the quality of the sound"

Volume definitely affects how I perceive sound but no matter how softly or loudly I play something I can still tell a difference in the quality of the sound coming from HDMI, multichannel, and analog outputs on the 95.

"but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing"

I did not say that nor do I think that.

In one of your earlier posts you said "Measurements also show that properly built/used solid state amps, cables and dacs are not audibly different"

Not to put words in your mouth, but if you are saying you cannot hear any difference between dacs then I will want to consider the opinions of those who can when thinking about buying a 8801.

BTW what is a DBT?

you aren't understanding his "volume" commentary (which he is correct about)...

if you don't know what a dbt (double blind test) is, you really have a long way to go...
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post #234 of 5769
10/27/12 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

you aren't understanding his "volume" commentary (which he is correct about)...
if you don't know what a dbt (double blind test) is, you really have a long way to go...

Would you care to explain his "volume" commentary?

Thanks for cluing me in on the meaning of the acronym. I am familiar with how to run a dbt.
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post #235 of 5769
10/27/12 at 12:45pm
he doesn't mean, "listening at different volumes"... he means "the volume is matched" between the 2 units...

and no, you can't do it with a spl meter, and definitely not "by ear"...
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post #236 of 5769
10/27/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

he doesn't mean, "listening at different volumes"... he means "the volume is matched" between the 2 units...
and no, you can't do it with a spl meter, and definitely not "by ear"...

If an SPL meter is not sufficent to level match two components what is the proper way?

Bill
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post #237 of 5769
10/27/12 at 1:00pm
^^^

you know the answer to that bill... this isn't the first discussion you've been involved with that concerns level matching...
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post #238 of 5769
10/27/12 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

he doesn't mean, "listening at different volumes"... he means "the volume is matched" between the 2 units...
and no, you can't do it with a spl meter, and definitely not "by ear"...

Ah, 2 units.

Apparently I am more focused on the difference in how the HDMI, multichannel, and analog outputs sound on the 95 while bfeeedma is more focused on explaining why there is no difference between how the 93 and 95 sound?

Ok, so lets forget the 93 for a moment.

Is he saying that on the 95 there should be no difference in how the hdmi, multichannel, and analog outputs sound playing the same source material?
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post #239 of 5769
10/27/12 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
you know the answer to that bill... this isn't the first discussion you've been involved with that concerns level matching...

If I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked you to elaborate on it. In all honesty I do not recall previous discussions on level matching. But that doesn't mean much as my memory is not the best. If you could direct me to the thread where the discussion took place I would appreciate it. I have always used an SPL meter so I guess I'm doing it wrong.

Bill
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post #240 of 5769
10/27/12 at 9:31pm
It looks like the AV8801 thread is being diverted off topic. Can we return to Marantz instead of Oppo Blu ray players?
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