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Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 9

post #241 of 11327
I believe the 8801 may very well compliment my Oppo 95.
post #242 of 11327
All DACS are not equal and all implementations of the same DACS are not equal.

There can be significant and easily heard differences between the Digital to Analog Conversion of different equipment. Hearing the difference does require downstream components with enough resolution to present the difference.

When talking about measurements keep in mind that most measurements are made using steady state signals. Music signals are far from steady state and orders of magnitude more complex. While steady state signals may not show interactions that affect the sound, music signals may cause interactions that degrade the perceived quality of the sound.

I certainly do not want to dismiss the placebo effect that many equipment "upgrades" may cause. This is, in most cases, very real. I prefer to refer to listening to music reproduction as a "Psycho-Acoustic" experience where Psycho and Acoustic may not necessarily be equal. Certain "upgrades" may be almost completely Psycho.

To get back on topic, I am very interested to learn exactly what the 8801 wiil provide and what reviewers that I respect think about it.
post #243 of 11327
^^^

you have it backwards... it is very easy to "measure" differences... whether they are "audible" or not, controlled testing has shown that it's not quite as easy as you state to differentiate...

nice try though... but we can "measure" much better than we can "hear"...
post #244 of 11327
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
you have it backwards... it is very easy to "measure" differences... whether they are "audible" or not, controlled testing has shown that it's not quite as easy as you state to differentiate...
nice try though... but we can "measure" much better than we can "hear"...

cc... I respect yours and Zillch's opinion but you are really spoiling most threads with your analytical data. I disagree with you. So does many others. You disagree with me. Fine. But please stop throwing in this measurement stuff. Music is much more than mathematics and numbers and I have suffered from the Placebo effect for sure; but I also noticed enormous differences between Lexicon, Onkyo, Denon and Marantz processors.

Let's get back on topic to focus on the AV8801.
post #245 of 11327
As for the OT bent of the thread, apparently you are not the only ones discussing this. The Secrets of Home Theater website has a front page article titled, "The Great Audio Debate: Objective Measurements vs. Subjective Experience." I haven't read it, as I am firmly in the camp of my ears may hear differently than yours, but I recognized the writers as well-versed and knowledgeable. Should be a good read for those interested.
post #246 of 11327
^^^

choosing to not educate yourself will not change the facts...
post #247 of 11327
^Now that we have cleared this up and propelled our knowledge of the Marantz AV8801 to new levels. ccotenj, what exactly have we learned? I think it's that the 8801 might not be for you since no matter what they put in it, it does nothing.

For the rest of us, I am looking forward to the new power supply. I have been wondering at what point is too much "over-kill" and really does nothing to stabilize or help the sound? It also looks like they added 13 HDAM modules the 8801. So all channels get this processing.
post #248 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

^Now that we have cleared this up and propelled our knowledge of the Marantz AV8801 to new levels. ccotenj, what exactly have we learned? I think it's that the 8801 might not be for you since no matter what they put in it, it does nothing.

For the rest of us, I am looking forward to the new power supply. I have been wondering at what point is too much "over-kill" and really does nothing to stabilize or help the sound? It also looks like they added 13 HDAM modules the 8801. So all channels get this processing.

What part of the discussion isn't relevant to the 8801?

Hopefully, some have learned. Others, apparently not so much.
post #249 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

A respect your opinion, I disagree with you, you have it backwards. You didn't educate yourself,
"but don't expect everyone else to abandon validated audio science and buy into what you think you are hearing" and still no unit to listen too.
All I can tell you is when I upgraded from the Oppo 93 to the Oppo 95 I could tell a huge difference in how things sounded.
and many others. The AV8801 has not been released yet, but the double blind testing has already been acomplished by some.

Do you have any measurements to validate your subjective findings? That would quiet us objectivists down.

Audio science is well established here - if you want to challenge it, it's up to you to bring the evidence.
post #250 of 11327
These are quotes from a few of the previous posts that are not on topic. Not posts from me. None of them are on topic. But that is for the moderators to decide.
post #251 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

These are quotes from a few of the previous posts that are not on topic. Not posts from me. None of them are on topic. But that is for the moderators to decide.

Interesting take. I find the discussion of DACs, which the 8801 has, far more relevant than a discussion of hearing differences between an Oppo 93 and an Oppo 95.
post #252 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaorin View Post

On a slightly more off topic note, the MM7055 has been heavily discounted in the last week (over 10%) and is now showing as out of stock in 6 of the 7 internet retailers here. Checking a certain internet retailer in the States shows it's also out of stock. My new friend in the Hifi shop kinda hinted it'd been discontinued but I couldn't quite understand what he was saying. Is it just a blip in the supply chain, or has it been discontinued without fanfare to push people towards the new MM8077. Kaorin

Have we heard anything in the way of general details or specs related to the MM8077?
post #253 of 11327
Guys, quit the bickering & stay on topic.

Thanks
post #254 of 11327
Hello all,

Don't know if it has been posted yet, but I got an email from my rep, pricing will be $3599 for the AV8801 and $2399 for the MM8077 amplifier. Shipping in December if you get order in quickly, my guess is supply will be extremely short off the bat, like it was with the AV7005.
post #255 of 11327
That's pretty steep.
What sets the 8801 apart from the 7701 ?
Is it just XT32?
post #256 of 11327
Lots of things,
Better Dacs 32/192, more channels, better power supply, copper shielding XT/32 and more.
post #257 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple SU View Post


And 2ch analogue XLR input that should satisfy folks with Oppo BDP-95/105
post #258 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

And 2ch analogue XLR input that should satisfy folks with Oppo BDP-95/105

I am glad you pointed that out.

Will the XLR input produce a better/different sound than the rca jacks in a home theater environment where the cable runs in my case are less than 3 ft?
post #259 of 11327
No differance
post #260 of 11327
Who Hooo! I have been waiting for this Pre.

I must admit the whole "My DACs better than your DAC" argument is never going to work with me. My ears just rarely can tell these things anymore. What I can tell is if I stuff my ear in a speaker and blast the volume on while actually sending no real signal. Can I hear moise. The answer is, with my 4311 and Emotiva amps..... Not really. Does a copper housing/base help here on the Marantz stuff? Maybe. Do I are about blind tests? Nope, too hard to do and most analytical guys can prove that most of what we perceive to hear is subjective. I am ok with that.

So why would I upgrade to this thing. 1). I already pre-out my 4311 and have turned off the Amos (well not really as they stay on using the 4311 but the input signal gets defeated). 2). I like my big Stalin era looking Emo amps and am convinced that high current, high power amps do indeed make my room sound better. 3). I really enjoy 11.2 DSX and want to keep this feature. Neo-X is just another option if in fact the 8801 has this as does the 4520.

Now my stupid reasons. 1). My home built HTPC is housed in a Silverstone all aluminum case that looks nearly the same as the Marantz gear....... Stupid but cool.... They will match. 2). I don't like RCA connects. On the Emo amps they are poorly designed and can break away from the back plates with pressure from the connects. XLR connects are simply more robust. I won't even go in to the XLR's are better for long distance run argument as i am sure they theoretically are but i can't tell. No one ever comments on this but my feeble ears couldn't tell a $1,000 cable from a Monoprice cable but breaking the back of my equipment blows; therefore I'm an XLR fan 3). If I do upgrade to this beast, it appears likely I will keep all the good stuff I love about my 4311 and add a little Marantz bling plus Neo-X. (if it has it)

I am not going to be the first to purchase as I was with the very capable 4311 but I certainly will be tagging this thread. I do think a 10/100 switch is silly and not future proof. Triggers, who cares?vThere are devices such as sold by Emotiva that add trigger control for next to nothing. I also don't need 200 inputs analog everything and a crazy amount of zones. My 4311 is for one room and one room only Sonos handles the rest of the house as does distributed video via PC and extenders.

Finally, for those who are jumping all over the cost on this thing, I think you are way off. For what this Pre is, mid $3s is not out of line. There is not a single other unit that will do what its feature set can offer.... At any price. The 4520 will do more for less but it is not a Pre, it is an AVR. Onkyo /Integra is another different alternative but not the same. The esoteric pres just don't do 11.2. If you want this feature you can't go esoteric.

Having said all this, the 4311 is working fantastic so a good bit of this wow feeling is simply upgradeitus gone wild. Hobby - Sickness? You decide.
post #261 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Quote:
Finally, for those who are jumping all over the cost on this thing, I think you are way off.

I don't think I'm way off inregard to the high price of the 8801. If you feel the price of the 8801 is fair then thats cool. But just because others have a different opinion doesn't mean their opinion is "way off" IMO.

Quote:
For what this Pre is, mid $3s is not out of line. There is not a single other unit that will do what its feature set can offer.... At any price.

I'm not really familiar with the feature set off the 8801. But what added features does the 8801 have that the Onkyo and Integra prepros do not have?
Quote:
The 4520 will do more for less but it is not a Pre, it is an AVR.

Sure it is wink.gif. It is a prepro that comes with amps. What is the downside of using the 4520 as a prepro?
Quote:
Onkyo /Integra is another different alternative but not the same.

I agree that the prepros from Onkyo and Integra are not the same as the 8801. But what are the differences that will have the 8801 sounding better than the Onkyo and the Integra?

Bill
post #262 of 11327
How much was the Onkyo 5509? Once the 5510 is out, we will then have a basis for determining if the 8801 is overpriced or not. As it stands, I believe the Marantz is quite a unique beast.

And if the 5510 doesn't have multichannel inputs (if it's like the AVR variant), it would be IMHO a big feature missing.

Using an AVR for prepro functions work but in a dense circuit, you'll usually find more EMI and RF interference from high current circuits (like the power amp) that can cause noise in sensitive preamp circuits, among other reasons. It's why you find that pre and power stereo systems usually have better noise floor performance. I know your stance is that noise is not discernible beyond a certain threshold, but my experience shows that details, soundstage and other performance criteria becomes more noticeable when noise is suppressed well. How important this is in a HT system vs a hifi system is arguable. That I admit. But I still remember being in a demo room a few years back in an audio show which was showing Hurt Locker. It was a really crowded room and the Macintosh/JM Labs Utopia system was cranked up to insane levels. But what always struck me was that in the sniper shootout scene in the desert, it was dead quiet. And I was standing just next to the massive surround speaker. I've never heard this level of "silence" on any other system that has the volume cranked up that high. It was really astounding and it was that silence that I thought was immensely immersive.

I currently have a 4810 so I don't even get the HDMI 1.4 switching (which is annoying as hell) so it limits the amount of dual HDMI output devices I can use. I am really looking forward to a new prepro with the features of the 4520/8801 because like Seattle, we are both sold on 11 channels smile.gif
post #263 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

Quote:
And if the 5510 doesn't have multichannel inputs (if it's like the AVR variant), it would be IMHO a big feature missing.

I agree and the 7.1 analog input could very well be missing from the 5010.

Quote:
Using an AVR for prepro functions work but in a dense circuit, you'll usually find more EMI and RF interference from high current circuits (like the power amp) that can cause noise in sensitive preamp circuits, among other reasons. It's why you find that pre and power stereo systems usually have better noise floor performance.

True but are these differences actually audible when an AVR is used as a prepro? I would like to see a comparison between say the 5509 and 5009 (as a prepro) to see if anyone could tell the difference in a DBT.

Bill
post #264 of 11327
Oh great. Double blind again.

FWIW there was a recent video debate on Secrets of Home Theater about subjective vs objective listening and both camps said that listening to something, say A prior to listening to something else, B, it is perceived that A would sound different than if you just listened to A alone. They said the correct way was if you were doing an AB (and you are used to A) is to listen to B and only B alone for say a few weeks. Then go back to listening to A.
post #265 of 11327
On Denon's 4520 the poweramp modules can be configured to on/off.
Might be interesting to compare.

I'd like to add that the receiver has a bigger PSU which could be benificial using it as processor.
post #266 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by discodol View Post

I am glad you pointed that out.
Will the XLR input produce a better/different sound than the rca jacks in a home theater environment where the cable runs in my case are less than 3 ft?
Probably not. But the fact the XLR input exists at all on the AV8801 unlike the AV7701 is a sign that the analogue stereo input is aimed at better sound quality vs the 7701 in pure direct / straight mode. I did type "sign" not "proof" because we don't know yet...
post #267 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Sure it is wink.gif It is a prepro that comes with amps. What is the downside of using the 4520 as a prepro?
Well, at a high level no XLR connectors, just RCA's. Will that difference, the copper coated chassis, and lack of amps cause it to sound audibly different (ABX verifiable) when used as a pre-pro? I'd guess not in most cases.
post #268 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

Oh great. Double blind again.

FWIW there was a recent video debate on Secrets of Home Theater about subjective vs objective listening and both camps said that listening to something, say A prior to listening to something else, B, it is perceived that A would sound different than if you just listened to A alone. They said the correct way was if you were doing an AB (and you are used to A) is to listen to B and only B alone for say a few weeks. Then go back to listening to A.

Can you provide a link to this discussion?

Audio memory is so poor that even brief interruptions in listening are enough to enhance the effects of expectation bias, especially when we are straining to hear subtle differences which might not exist. In adult humans, after a few days what we remember is primarily a biased summary of what we think happened (i.e. the "gist") , and not the actual details that were experienced. The details usually are filled in from our memories of many similar experiences, from what we imagine we ought to have experienced, or from what someone told us we had been experiencing. See http://www.psmag.com/health/total-recall-or-at-least-the-gist-4576/ (links to some of the published papers are available at http://www.human.cornell.edu/HD/reyna/publications.cfm?showall )
post #269 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Audio memory is so poor that even brief interruptions in listening are enough to enhance the effects of expectation bias, especially when we are straining to hear subtle differences which might not exist. In adult humans, after a few days what we remember is primarily a biased summary of what we think happened (i.e. the "gist") , and not the actual details that were experienced. The details usually are filled in from our memories of many similar experiences, from what we imagine we ought to have experienced, or from what someone told us we had been experiencing. See http://www.psmag.com/health/total-recall-or-at-least-the-gist-4576/ (links to some of the published papers are available at http://www.human.cornell.edu/HD/reyna/publications.cfm?showall )
Exactly... Frankly that sounds like a nonsense mumbo jumbo excuse as to why they can't / won't participate in an ABX test. Naturally making it take weeks / months makes it effectively impossible to do. IE: You can't go to someone's house or shop and participate in an ABX shootout of something if it takes a weeks at a time with each item to get "valid" results.
post #270 of 11327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

Quote:
Oh great. Double blind again.

Oh yeah biggrin.gif.
Quote:
FWIW there was a recent video debate on Secrets of Home Theater about subjective vs objective listening and both camps said that listening to something, say A prior to listening to something else, B, it is perceived that A would sound different than if you just listened to A alone. They said the correct way was if you were doing an AB (and you are used to A) is to listen to B and only B alone for say a few weeks. Then go back to listening to A.

Correct way? I don't think so. Doing a comparison as you suggest is really not the least bit objective. As Selden Ball pointed out (quite well in fact) that one could not possibly do a reliable comparison as you suggest due to the issue of audio memory. What is so bad about having two components such as the 5009 (as a prepro) and the 5509 level matched then compared with a A-B switch box? It would be interesting to see if all those that claim AVRs (when used as prepros) are inferior to prepros could tell the difference. In that I highly doubt anyone could tell the difference when the time to switch between the two is a second or two.

Bill
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