Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 112

Originally Posted by beastaudio 

I am a bit confused on the bi-amp situation you are doing right now too. you are using 4 channels of amplification coming from the FL/FR of the marantz, into a 4 channel amp and two +/- wires going to each speaker with one for the mids and one for the highs? It certainly sounds to me as well that the mids are not either getting the proper wattage to operate fully compared to the highs. If the amp doesn't have separate gain adjustments, this would certainly be the case as the highs probably take 1/10th of the power to operate at appropriate listening levels as the mids/woofers do. feeding them both the same amount of power at the same gain level would be exactly what you are seeing.

Originally Posted by beastaudio 

I am a bit confused on the bi-amp situation you are doing right now too. you are using 4 channels of amplification coming from the FL/FR of the marantz, into a 4 channel amp and two +/- wires going to each speaker with one for the mids and one for the highs? It certainly sounds to me as well that the mids are not either getting the proper wattage to operate fully compared to the highs. If the amp doesn't have separate gain adjustments, this would certainly be the case as the highs probably take 1/10th of the power to operate at appropriate listening levels as the mids/woofers do. feeding them both the same amount of power at the same gain level would be exactly what you are seeing.
Man, I like this thread, SBIR is all to often not even mentioned when properly calibrating systems Good points sir, I learned the effects of SBIR after way too late in my initial journey
In reference to this and your above quote, I will expound on how I take Audyssey's results. First off, it sets my subs a good 10-15dB lower than they should be to match the rest of the system, and it does it every time. A cheap radioShack SPL meter is your best friend. Quite possibly the best $40 I spent on my theater so I can go and see where Audyssey missed some very important things.

Dynamic EQ will only accentuate the surround mix, and the low freqs when listening below reference to help make the sound appear more "full" when not cranking the system to higher listening levels. My guess here is it is helping your already anemic sub system that was set incorrectly to bring it back to where it needs to be, but is still inaccurate. SO on to my post Audyssey regiment:

1) go in and adjust crossover points, my rears I know are not capable to 40hz, so I bump it up a shade to prevent damaging the speakers. Mains are set as full range but IN MY ROOM my system measures better when they are set to 100hz so I do that. YMMV

2) Confirm that the speaker distances look to be correct on all channels, which Audyssey does a much better job at this part.

3)and most important, I take my RS Spl meter and make sure that all the levels are matched at 75dB (or the standard 72 that your 8801 probably has them close to minus the sub channel)

4) If on any of the speakers your post Audyssey results show a -12 on the meter, as has been said, Audyssey could not EQ as it felt the level was too high and left it out. If you have any of these in your setup after a test, either move the mic further away from the MLP (not always the best idea), adjust the gains on the amp down so post Audyssey results show the majority of your speakers are at 0-0dB +/- 5dB or so, or if you don't have gain adjustments on your amp, then look into getting some RCA line attenuators from PE:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=266-244

The whole part about Audyssey reading your mains as reversed polarity could either be side wall reflections being too prominent in the frequency response or your overall delay coming from your front stage to the mic but I would guess the former. Side wall absorbtion/diffusion would be advisable, but before that try adjusting the toe-in of your mains to see if this helps.

Originally Posted by wse 

Good for you experimentation is all it takes, I love experimenting as well. What are your speakers?

Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn 

In my initial testing of the AV8801, it failed the Chroma Resolution test, but Marantz sent me a new firmware today and it now passes this test. This update will be pushed out in the near future for everyone.

Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC 

Do you guys turn off "loudness management" under surround parameters when playing True HD movies. I have it turned off. Kind of second guessing myself....

Originally Posted by Bill222 

Audyssey basic setup question

I ran Audyssey with just 1 mic position - just to check speaker levels before moving on. The first few times it kept saying my sub-woofer is too loud - turn it down and try again. So I did. This time - it ran to completion.

BUT - for speaker levels - it has:

Front Left -12.0 db
Front Right -12.0 db
Center -12.0 db
Surround Left -12.0 db
Surround Right -12.0 db
Sur. Back Left -8.0 db
Sur. Back Right -8.5 db
Sub -5.5 db

Ummm - help? I remember reading anything tuned to -12db is "bad" - that it's outside the limits of Audyssey to adjust... But my speakers don't have adjustments. Only the sub has adjustments. The other speakers are just good, old, large (in size - 100+ pound) speakers - all being run by nice, old, amps that also don't have adjustments (just on/off for the amps).

What's the next step to get a "good" Audyssey calibration?

Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes 

Roger: No one takes issue with your subjective opinions of the sound.

I am not making a subjective opinion. I am stating that there is an observable difference in the sound.

I have referenced two measurements by others that, although the same Audessey XT32 is used, show different very different FR curves that should not exist at this level of Audessey.

Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes 

If you look at the first graph in post #59 starting at 300 hz it measures 80 db, at 2500 hz it measures 88 db with the first two octaves staying above 85 db a dip starting at 1200 then a sharp rise back up at 2500 hz.

These measurements that we are discussing are known by the manufacturers and they choose NOT to publish them. That in and of itself is a red flag. What else are they not telling us? Where are the Emperors new clothes?

Sidenote to Roger- Do you remember the Fosgate Gavotte? I was running one during 89-92 on the IASCA circuit in socal.

Originally Posted by Bill222 

http://www.klipsch.com/cf-4 They're mainly Klipsch CF-4 (Fronts and Surrounds).
http://www.klipsch.com/cf-3 Rear Surrounds are Klipsch CF-3.
http://www.klipsch.com/kv-4 Center is a Klipsch KV-4

Each of those pages have "Spec" tabs for more details. (Yes - my speakers are all from the mid-90's. That's new to me... Where's the dinosaur emoticon?)

Originally Posted by Bill222 

Yes - I'm using the balanced outs to amps with no gain control. The amps are old Aragon amps from their 8008 line.

Uh-oh. I don't want to go back to RCA.... It's a long run to the amp for the rear-surrounds (maybe 30 feet as the cable goes). And even the short runs up front (10 or 15 feet) are all running next to many other cables - many of them power cables. I really don't want to go back to RCA.

Originally Posted by audiofan1 

Looks like the line attenuator may be an option as posted a few threads back but only for those with levels at -12 anything above that is fine.

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler 

Looking back at the context (below), I am no longer certain if Mr. Lynch was referring to the LPF in the 8801 LFE channel (as I first thought) or the filter on the Seaton's amp. If he was referring to the Seaton, then I agree it should not be set to 80 Hz. But neither 120 Hz. It should be turned off if at all possible, or set as high as it can go. I hope he can clarify which he meant.

Originally Posted by comfynumb 

S
The Sunfire multi channel amp is biamp able, one RCA to the left rear in my case as I wasn't using it. Then daisy chain with an RCA that to the left front current source (Sunfire has both current and voltage sources for the front speakers) this gives me two speaker leads for one front speaker, both at the rated 200 WPC into 8 ohms. Same goes for the right. It does list this technique in the book. I just tried this and by no means did it improve anything IMO. So I will be going back to normal. It definitely sounds like I need an spl meter and I'm going to try your suggestions. So if I'm getting side wall deflection, which I agree with you I am. Should I toe the fronts in past the main listening position? This is my first pre/pro with these advanced settings and I appreciate the help.

One more question, Audyssey wanted me to turn the low and high pass filters on my powered sub up all the way. Should these be left there or set to relatively the same Hz that I have my mains crossed at?

Originally Posted by Bill222 

Audyssey basic setup question

I ran Audyssey with just 1 mic position - just to check speaker levels before moving on. The first few times it kept saying my sub-woofer is too loud - turn it down and try again. So I did. This time - it ran to completion.

BUT - for speaker levels - it has:

Front Left -12.0 db
Front Right -12.0 db
Center -12.0 db
Surround Left -12.0 db
Surround Right -12.0 db
Sur. Back Left -8.0 db
Sur. Back Right -8.5 db
Sub -5.5 db

Ummm - help? I remember reading anything tuned to -12db is "bad" - that it's outside the limits of Audyssey to adjust... But my speakers don't have adjustments. Only the sub has adjustments. The other speakers are just good, old, large (in size - 100+ pound) speakers - all being run by nice, old, amps that also don't have adjustments (just on/off for the amps).

What's the next step to get a "good" Audyssey calibration?

Originally Posted by beastaudio 

Try toeing them in a little more to where they cross a few feet in front of the MLP, but no more. If that doesn't fix it, some acoustic panels might help on the side walls(and rear wall too for that matter). I strongly recommend these in any case. On your sub, either defeat any LPF on it altogether, or set it as high as possible. Matching the XO on the sub AND the receiver make the dual filter double the rolloff which is more than likely a bad thing to do...
You still might want to look at line attenuators, but give the switch to RCA a try first. Another option would be to put "Bump-boxes" in line on each of the channels to dump some signal. It is funny, as most people use them to GAIN additional signal when going from Unbalanced RCA consumer to balanced XLR pro level, but in your case, it could actually do the opposite. For main speakers look at the new samson convert or the art cleanbox pro. Not sure if you want anything else in the chain to begin with, but it is certainly another option to running all new wire.

Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC 

Any idea if the firmware includes any other fixes? Did they hint at an ETA?

Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes 

Disney Concert Hall sounds different from Segerstrom Concert Hall. Wilson Watt Puppies sound different from Revel Salon 2's. These are objective observations - A/B comparison. Direct sounds different from stereo in the AV8801. Two valued members here state that the Av8801 sounds different from the Integra 80.2 with the same setup with Audyssey XT32. I agree with their observations. There is a reason that they do sound different and I then chose to investigate the why.

The reading of the graph I referenced by beastaudio, is after he used Audyssey but before he used his 31 band EQ to further smooth the FR. The other reference is buried in another posted response to Dr. Rubinson. In Music in the Round #50 he took measurements of the 80.2 with Audyssey engaged.

I do agree with you that I cannot hear a difference in the Dolby outputs. Music is easier to pick out differences in FR than movies. I would like to see measurements of Prepros/AVR's that are more extensive than the speaker measurements we get. The electronics are much more complicated than simple passive speakers.

Unfortunately, I am returning the AV8801. I am not happy with the quality of my 80.2, which was the catalyst for purchasing the Marantz. The styling, gui and the myriad of options are wonderful. I like what Audyssey sets as a baseline, before some minor tweaking with my setup. I want as few as components as possible in the signal path to obtain accurate sound. Back to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes 

Disney Concert Hall sounds different from Segerstrom Concert Hall. Wilson Watt Puppies sound different from Revel Salon 2's. These are objective observations - A/B comparison. Direct sounds different from stereo in the AV8801. Two valued members here state that the Av8801 sounds different from the Integra 80.2 with the same setup with Audyssey XT32. I agree with their observations. There is a reason that they do sound different and I then chose to investigate the why.

The reading of the graph I referenced by beastaudio, is after he used Audyssey but before he used his 31 band EQ to further smooth the FR. The other reference is buried in another posted response to Dr. Rubinson. In Music in the Round #50 he took measurements of the 80.2 with Audyssey engaged.

I do agree with you that I cannot hear a difference in the Dolby outputs. Music is easier to pick out differences in FR than movies. I would like to see measurements of Prepros/AVR's that are more extensive than the speaker measurements we get. The electronics are much more complicated than simple passive speakers.

Unfortunately, I am returning the AV8801. I am not happy with the quality of my 80.2, which was the catalyst for purchasing the Marantz. The styling, gui and the myriad of options are wonderful. I like what Audyssey sets as a baseline, before some minor tweaking with my setup. I want as few as components as possible in the signal path to obtain accurate sound. Back to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes 

Unfortunately, I am returning the AV8801. I am not happy with the quality of my 80.2, which was the catalyst for purchasing the Marantz. The styling, gui and the myriad of options are wonderful. I like what Audyssey sets as a baseline, before some minor tweaking with my setup. I want as few as components as possible in the signal path to obtain accurate sound. Back to the drawing board.

Originally Posted by GerryWaz 

Anyone have this issue? The AV8801/MM8807 suddenly goes into something like a "mute state" and the only way to address the issue is to turn everything off and then back on.

Has happened to me three times over the past two weeks, the most recent last night when I was watching "The Colbert Report" on cable TV. The other two times were with FM and HD radio.

More of an inconvenience . . .

Originally Posted by exm 

Most people who purchase the MM8077 are getting the combo deal - so the MM8077 will be $1,399