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Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 127

post #3781 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Just need to find a way to get it in my room for demo 30 days to hear it with the 800Diamonds smile.gif

No one will do that frown.gif

If its one that's harder to these days its that! and with so much great gear we have these days !
post #3782 of 11283
Anyone heard the new Tannoy Kingdom Royal?

"The result is a triumphant expression of Tannoy itself. Pushing the boundaries of high-end loudspeaker design to new levels, Kingdom Royal offers unsurpassed acoustic performance, ultra-low colouration, high efficiency and musical integrity unmatched by any other loudspeaker on the market today."

Frequency Response 24Hz - 61kHz (-6dB)
post #3783 of 11283
I wouldn't care what they sounded like, I think it is absolutely ridiculous to spend $28,000 on a single cabinet. There is nothing in that design worth that much, but hey, I am just a simply DIY guy. 1/10th of that budget and I could get you 90% of the way there.
post #3784 of 11283
Recently, I bought a new Outlaw 7500 to go with the AV8801; An excellent match, btw.

At first I did not think so, because the Outlaw was plugged into the Panamax 5400 power conditioner amp outlet. The highs sounded distorted and the dynamics were unimpressive.
I plugged the amp directly into the 20 amp circuit and it came alive. It was dynamic, clean, and wonderful. But, I still had hum from the amp and from the Panamax.
I plugged the Panamax into another circuit and it still hummed but the Amp was now completely quiet.
I thought the Panamax was defective so I bought a Furman Elite-15 PF i power conditioner.

The Furman Elite-15 PF i this device is supposed to add 3 amps continuous and 45 amp peaks for you amp I plugged it in. Low and behold it was every bit as bad as the Panamax.
Detail and peaks were lost; the sound was ok but nothing like when plugged directly into the wall.
I know others have these devices but, I would strongly recommended trying your amp directly plugged into the wall.
I have concluded that amps are well designed need power on demand and these folks are snake oil salesmen.
I suppose this device might protect my other equipment but I am so disgusted with the utter deception used to market the Furman Elite-15 PF i , I am return it. I refuse to give these people my money.

For those using these with Outlaw amps, I suggest you get some good music and compare.
If you do not want to bother, I recommend you plug your amp directly into the wall.
One track I used when testing was”Peter Gunn” on Mancini’s Hits.

There is a sax that explodes after the one minute mark that was destroyed by the Furman.


- Rich
post #3785 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Recently, I bought a new Outlaw 7500 to go with the AV8801; An excellent match, btw.

At first I did not think so, because the Outlaw was plugged into the Panamax 5400 power conditioner amp outlet. The highs sounded distorted and the dynamics were unimpressive.
I plugged the amp directly into the 20 amp circuit and it came alive. It was dynamic, clean, and wonderful. But, I still had hum from the amp and from the Panamax.
I plugged the Panamax into another circuit and it still hummed but the Amp was now completely quiet.
I thought the Panamax was defective so I bought a Furman Elite-15 PF i power conditioner.

The Furman Elite-15 PF i this device is supposed to add 3 amps continuous and 45 amp peaks for you amp I plugged it in. Low and behold it was every bit as bad as the Panamax.
Detail and peaks were lost; the sound was ok but nothing like when plugged directly into the wall.
I know others have these devices but, I would strongly recommended trying your amp directly plugged into the wall.
I have concluded that amps are well designed need power on demand and these folks are snake oil salesmen.
I suppose this device might protect my other equipment but I am so disgusted with the utter deception used to market the Furman Elite-15 PF i , I am return it. I refuse to give these people my money.

For those using these with Outlaw amps, I suggest you get some good music and compare.
If you do not want to bother, I recommend you plug your amp directly into the wall.
One track I used when testing was”Peter Gunn” on Mancini’s Hits.

There is a sax that explodes after the one minute mark that was destroyed by the Furman.


- Rich

I use the Furman's and hear nothing deleterious on my Mac amps...
post #3786 of 11283
Wow Rich, pretty disappointing to say the least, especially with a unit running at a premium like that. I agree though, minimizing anything in the chain that you can avoid is always a good move for music fidelity. Also, unless the furman is really an "amp for your amp," I don't really get how it is going to be able to add 45 more amps continuous to what you have plugged into it, but I am novice at best when it comes to that area of home's electrical systems...My knowledge for the most part stops at the component rack biggrin.gif
post #3787 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I use the Furman's and hear nothing deleterious on my Mac amps...

I suppose you would have to compare plugging them into the wall.
It could be that the Outlaws do not want anything between them and the power.

Edit: This is an error of omission.

- Rich
Edited by RichB - 3/11/13 at 3:35pm
post #3788 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Wow Rich, pretty disappointing to say the least, especially with a unit running at a premium like that. I agree though, minimizing anything in the chain that you can avoid is always a good move for music fidelity. Also, unless the furman is really an "amp for your amp," I don't really get how it is going to be able to add 45 more amps continuous to what you have plugged into it, but I am novice at best when it comes to that area of home's electrical systems...My knowledge for the most part stops at the component rack biggrin.gif

I think this unit has a capacitor. The Reference series looks to have a transformer.
I am not sure it makes sense to buy an amp for your amp.
Want more amp, buy a bigger amp.

- Rich
post #3789 of 11283
Has anyone tried a Richard Grey Power Company device on any of there equipment, i recently borrowed one from a friend and to my eyes seen a noticeable difference with my picture quality with my Sony 50es projector, was wondering if anyone has tried with one of there amps also.
post #3790 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I suppose you would have to compare plugging them into the wall.
It could be that the Outlaws do not want anything between them and the power.

Edit: This is an error of omission.

- Rich

Yes of course - I ran without for a few weeks, then ordered one to test my mains before buying two more
post #3791 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Yes of course - I ran without for a few weeks, then ordered one to test my mains before buying two more

Do you think they improved the sound?

I can tell you that Panamax 5400 and PF 15 significantly reduced the performance of my Sunfire 7400 and Outlaw 7500.

- Rich
post #3792 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View PostDo you think they improved the sound? I can tell you that Panamax 5400 and PF 15 significantly reduced the performance of my Sunfire 7400 and Outlaw 7500. - Rich

Interesting Classé recommends to plug their amps staright into the wall, forget Furman.

 

Here is the response from Furman:

 

"The Furman PL-PRO DMC power conditioner does not create current compression by irresponsibly adding to the AC Line Impedance.

 

And if you could, why are you interested in purchasing PL-PRO DMC?  If it is for AC surge protection, there will not be any protection if an alternate route is provided for the incoming surge around the PL-PRO DMC.  Another words a backdoor to the source equipment.

 

And from a technical stand point did anyone explain in detail why not to use a quote "power conditioner"? Did they mention AC Line Impedance and Current Compression?

 

Current Compression is a symptom of raising AC line impedance.  This is an issue of concern in regards to audio amplifiers.  One example is you wouldn’t want to use a 18 Gauge extension cord with a 2000 watt amplifier.  The gauge can’t handle the current draw, it becomes a high impedance line.  Furthermore, if the power conditioner used employs an a high impedance design (re: Isolation Transformer, etc.), it should not be used with an amplifier.  Especially if the amplifier is of inferior design, a small amplifier of limited capability, or the amp is not designed to store large amounts of reserve current.  One should never use a high impedance AC source for an amplifier.

 

(Also please note, Crown the biggest name in Professional Audio when it comes to amplification recommends Furman often. And trust me I know since I answer the referrals.  Furman, originally Furman Sound, was a sound reinforcement company providing live sound throughout the west coast. And back in the 70’s, Jim Furman began to build his own signal processing for these gigs and most notably, The Grateful Dead (with many concerts powered by McIntosh). Further Jim realized the need to protect the gear! )

 

Lastly, not using surge protection on an entire system leaves your system unprotected from surges.  Basically this creates a back door for the surge to pass through the amp, down the signal line feed from your source equipment, right to the source equipment and ZAP!  Remember the saying, “Electricity takes the path of least resistance.”.  Well an idle, yet energized, amplifier can provide enough resistance to re-direct an incoming electrical transient surge down the signal line right to the source equipment.  At which time the transient will bounce around trying find a path to ground, or dissipate while frying an electronic component.  In order for surge protection to work, everything must be protected.

 

Don’t leave your gear unprotected. And once again, the 20 amp PL-PRO DMC C does not create current compression.

 

Sincerely,"

 

 

"No, limiting amplifiers is not realistic.  There is 10 feet of 12AWG AC line cord to add to the AC line impedance.   But this is all relative to the situation.  A PL-PRO DMC plug into 30 Feet of Romex has less AC impedance than 45 Feet of Romex with an outlet.  Not too sure if the person at the manufacturer understands this or not. The unit does not use a transformer of any kind for AC distribution, so there is no added impedance.  Just what's in wall is what you really have to be concerned with anyhow."

 

Any one care to comments I am not a EE!

post #3793 of 11283
which dac chip does marantz av8801 use?
I couldn't find any info on google typing that question, anyone know?

Wonder if I should just use hdmi from my oppo 105 or use the 5.1/7.1 (so it uses the sabre dac)

Thanks
post #3794 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

This really depends on your sub situation as to setting what we all agree on as very capable mains, if your sub or subs can produce clean well defined bass and is positioned wear it performs its best as I'm sure you've placed your capable mains to do so , by default the sound indeed should be superior! The thing to get out of your head is the fact that I'm setting my mains to "Small' when in fact your not, your merely redirecting specific bass frequencies to what I hope (if you didn't cut corners) is something more capable than your capable mains to handle said frequencies. My mains stand well over 6ft tall and have total of 10 drivers per speaker and are indeed capable of pressurizing my 20x21x8 room with no probs! Now having said that my sub is the new Ken Kreisel DXD12012 tongue.gif a sub which has quickly gained my adoration and respect for well defined articulated clean bass regardless of frequency its given to reproduce, in the pass its was indeed more difficult to integrate a sub with mains ! guys times have indeed changed eek.gif and some of those pass problems we gave a shot to little and or no success sent us back to default position, if you guys would put the time into exploring what the venerable 8801 with its implementation of Audyssey a 'Sonic tour de Force" awaits and you will find yourself scrambling at music and movie catalogs once again to enjoy ones self immensely.

These are only powerful processing options (replace the term "small" to I'm only engaging "crossovers" it may help biggrin.gif) and I cant stress that point enough! you can always run your mains fullrange as it to is an option wink.gif
After watching a few movies, Lord of the Rings, Transformer, and Finding Nemo, I think I like setting my Polkaudio LSi Series, Front, Center, Surround, and Surround Back Speakers to "Large" for a full frequency range. I am currently using an Outlaw Model 7700 to drive my 7 speakers. I also like using the Auddysey EQ in Bluray's Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA HD modes. I set my subwoofer LPF to 80 Hz for two of my Velodyne DLS-5000Rs though. I might change my settings again; but currently I am satisfied with my settings.
post #3795 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by be83663 View Post After watching a few movies, Lord of the Rings, Transformer, and Finding Nemo, I think I like setting my Polkaudio LSi Series, Front, Center, Surround, and Surround Back Speakers to "Large" for a full frequency range. I am currently using an Outlaw Model 7700 to drive my 7 speakers. I also like using the Auddysey EQ in Bluray's Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA HD modes. I set my subwoofer LPF to 80 Hz for two of my Velodyne DLS-5000Rs though. I might change my settings again; but currently I am satisfied with my settings.

Large hey you are going against THX!

post #3796 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglin222 View Post

which dac chip does marantz av8801 use?
I couldn't find any info on google typing that question, anyone know?

Wonder if I should just use hdmi from my oppo 105 or use the 5.1/7.1 (so it uses the sabre dac)

Thanks

I asked the same question but there was no answer. I was hoping JD would know but.. Denon apparently has gone back to Burr Brown in their 4520 so my guess is that the 8801 has Burr Brown in it too, hopefully something like the 1796 or better.
post #3797 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

I asked the same question but there was no answer. I was hoping JD would know but.. Denon apparently has gone back to Burr Brown in their 4520 so my guess is that the 8801 has Burr Brown in it too, hopefully something like the 1796 or better.

I think i found it here
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431914/marantz-av8801-preamp-processor-official-owners-thread/930

some one says it uses burr brown PCM1795 192kHz/32-bit DACs
post #3798 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Do you think they improved the sound?

I can tell you that Panamax 5400 and PF 15 significantly reduced the performance of my Sunfire 7400 and Outlaw 7500.

- Rich

No, no sonic imprint that I can discern. Purely for protection, especially since I have my share of brownouts and short terms blackouts.
post #3799 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

No, no sonic imprint that I can discern. Purely for protection, especially since I have my share of brownouts and short terms blackouts.

Are you using the PF 15 or another model?

I did a A / B pausing the playback and changing the amp from wall direct to the Amp circuit.
There was a significant reduction in the sound quality.

Of course, Furman states a well designed amp....
This is a product that claims to improve sound but does the opposite.

Furman says this:
Quote:
Furthermore, if the power conditioner used employs an a high impedance design (re: Isolation Transformer, etc.), it should not be used with an amplifier. Especially if the amplifier is of inferior design, a small amplifier of limited capability, or the amp is not designed to store large amounts of reserve current. One should never use a high impedance AC source for an amplifier.

The Outlaw has 3.2 kVA toroidal power supply and 30,000 uF total filter capacitance.
It is far more likely that their device is reducing the available power.

I read that to mean, if the Furman product harms an amplifiers performance it is an "inferior design".

Here is a picture of the Furman Elite insides.

I willing to bet a powerful amp has more robust construction.
Basically, they added a capacitor.

There appears to be a EE on this thread that describes what I hear:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/472546/furman-power-factor-pro-what-is-it/30#post_4749336
Quote:
and you should be very very scared using it to power a power amplifier: as it will starve the current supply to a high-powered power amp.

This is what I hear.

- Rich
post #3800 of 11283

"A misgiving for me is that Furman Elite-15 PFi doesn't provide any Amp, Voltage, or Wattage meter display functions."

post #3801 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Are you using the PF 15 or another model?

I did a A / B pausing the playback and changing the amp from wall direct to the Amp circuit.
There was a significant reduction in the sound quality.

Of course, Furman states a well designed amp....
This is a product that claims to improve sound but does the opposite.

Furman says this:
The Outlaw has 3.2 kVA toroidal power supply and 30,000 uF total filter capacitance.
It is far more likely that their device is reducing the available power.

I read that to mean, if the Furman product harms an amplifiers performance it is an "inferior design".

Here is a picture of the Furman Elite insides.

I willing to bet a powerful amp has more robust construction.
Basically, they added a capacitor.

There appears to be a EE on this thread that describes what I hear:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/472546/furman-power-factor-pro-what-is-it/30#post_4749336
This is what I hear.

- Rich

I use the 15pfi's

Neither of us are EE's, but I read the specs of the furman to provide continuous 11-15 amps, with additional continuous 3 amps reserve, and up to 45 amps peak charge. As a layman, this appears to be sufficient current to charge capacitors in the amp. I use one 15 pfi per McIntosh amp, no other draw.

Nonetheless, there is no sonic degradation with my system.
post #3802 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View PostI use the 15pfi's

Neither of us are EE's, but I read the specs of the furman to provide continuous 11-15 amps, with additional continuous 3 amps reserve, and up to 45 amps peak charge. As a layman, this appears to be sufficient current to charge capacitors in the amp. I use one 15 pfi per McIntosh amp, no other draw. Nonetheless, there is no sonic degradation with my system.

What does McIntosh says?

post #3803 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

What does McIntosh says?


I believe they don't feel it's necessary unless you have some power issues, then it might be beneficial. I do have a several short blackouts and brownouts a year - end of a power line...but they don't say, afaik, that it is detrimental.

Unscientific, but it appears most Mcintosh users on AudioAfficiando use some type of line conditioner.
post #3804 of 11283
I use them all the time. Surge protectors like Panamax, etc limit current on TVs and amps. RGPC is designed to be parallel on amps and direct with TVs, they work very well. I also plug amps into the sub stations. The RGPC equipment actually works and does not mess up the power flow. It can really improve contrast and black levels as well as the noise floor.
post #3805 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View PostI believe they don't feel it's necessary unless you have some power issues, then it might be beneficial. I do have a several short blackouts and brownouts a year - end of a power line...but they don't say, afaik, that it is detrimental.

Unscientific, but it appears most Mcintosh users on AudioAfficiando use some type of line conditioner.

Interesting, Florida is where you live!  California fortunately has fairly stable power

post #3806 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Interesting, Florida is where you live!  California fortunately has fairly stable power

No, the northeast...
post #3807 of 11283
TI Burr Brown PCM1795 192kHz/32-bit DACs. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

I asked the same question but there was no answer. I was hoping JD would know but.. Denon apparently has gone back to Burr Brown in their 4520 so my guess is that the 8801 has Burr Brown in it too, hopefully something like the 1796 or better.
post #3808 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by be83663 View Post

After watching a few movies, Lord of the Rings, Transformer, and Finding Nemo, I think I like setting my Polkaudio LSi Series, Front, Center, Surround, and Surround Back Speakers to "Large" for a full frequency range. I am currently using an Outlaw Model 7700 to drive my 7 speakers. I also like using the Auddysey EQ in Bluray's Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA HD modes. I set my subwoofer LPF to 80 Hz for two of my Velodyne DLS-5000Rs though. I might change my settings again; but currently I am satisfied with my settings.

I still use full range as well as its an option I still have, there are no right or wrongs when it comes to your setup, but the bass is indeed tighter and cleaner crossing all my speakers at 80hz and the LPF in the sub for blurays at 90hz there's just no denying for me, its cleaner wink.gif
post #3809 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

The thing to get out of your head is the fact that I'm setting my mains to "Small' when in fact your not, your merely redirecting specific bass frequencies to what I hope (if you didn't cut corners) is something more capable than your capable mains to handle said frequencies. My mains stand well over 6ft tall and have total of 10 drivers per speaker and are indeed capable of pressurizing my 20x21x8 room with no probs! Now having said that my sub is the new Ken Kreisel DXD12012 tongue.gif a sub
I set mains to SMALL for most all movie surround, but usually LARGE for multi-channel music (SACD's, DVD-A's, BluRay-A). Although using my one sub (JL Audio F110) isn't bad either (with mains set = SMALL).
Edited by WestCoastD - 3/12/13 at 1:11pm
post #3810 of 11283
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

...
I did a A / B pausing the playback and changing the amp from wall direct to the Amp circuit.
There was a significant reduction in the sound quality.
...
- Rich

Hey Rich,

Thanks for trying the Furman. I love them for my systems. My main system uses two Furman Elite 15-PFi's.

One Furman 15-PFi is in the "front" of the room, on a 15-amp circuit. This "front" Furman provides power to the TV, all of the system components (Marantaz 8801, Oppo's 105 and 83-SE, PS3, HTPC, Cable, a pair of PS2s, LaserDisc, etc.), and three of my amps (a two-channel Aragon, another two-channel Aragon, and a three-channel Aragon - so that's the two channels of front, two channels of surround, and a center channel - with two channels left open on the 3-channel amp).

The other Furman 15-PFi is in the "back" of the room - on a twenty-amp circuit - powering yet another 2-channel Aragon amp for the rear-surrounds as well as powering the one-and-only Epik sub to finish out the 7.1 system.

When I first tried these amps with the Furman it sounded horrible. But that was hum. Then I "cheated". I used those cheap, little grey-converter plugs that let you take a 3-prong plug (such as - the plug from the amp) and convert it down to a 2-prong plug - before plugging it into the Furman. (Yes - I know - it's like I clipped the 3rd prong of the plugs on my amps.) After that, the sound was great. At least, to my ears.

I've just ordered that CD you linked with the Peter Gun theme. It will arrive tomorrow (Wednesday). I'll try your A/B experiment then (first listening with my current setup, then listening with amps plugged directly to the walls).

To match your A/B test - what sound mode should I be using? (And how many speakers? Just a pure 2-channel test? Leave the rest of the amps off?) Also - do you have an SACD to recommend for sound quality playback testing? I have a few of those - not many - but a few.

Thanks,
Bill


@WSE - I'm the one who recently mentioned living in Florida. Central Florida. Home of the regularly scheduled thunderstorms. And the irregularly scheduled power fluctuations and (usually) short blackouts. The strange thing is - most of those power fluctuations (the ones bad enough to make my UPS systems chirp and complain) - they happen when there's not a cloud in the sky!
Edited by Bill222 - 3/11/13 at 10:02pm
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