Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 142

Rich,

Speaking about our 2-channel music priorities, how good is AV8801 (7.1-input) analog section compared to other dedicated 2-channel preamps?

My wife is objecting to addition equipment in our family room, so I'm looking for good multi-purpose pre-pro that I can live with for 2-channel playback...

When connecting the oppo via the analog out to the av8801, you cannot utilize the room correction.... this this correct?

i ask because i am reading that some of you are using the room correction for movies and not for multi channel music.

if the room correction is used to make the sound better for the given "room" then wouldn't it ALSO benefit for multi channel music?

thanks,
Bill

baranowski.

It's a matter of personal preference.

When people have invested a lot of time and money in quality speakers and room treatments, the improvements provided by the room equalization software can be relatively small. Also, quite a few people have reported that they don't like the results.

Doing Audyssey room equalization correctly does involve some tricky details which aren't mentioned in the simple instructions provided by the manufacturers. (Hence the existence of Audyssey 101 at http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993) Also, in other discussions on AVS, a number of people have discovered that they had received defective microphones with their receivers. I don't know how much these two problems have contributed to the dislike.

The mods will not affect the functionality of the Marantz, so firmware updates will apply as usual.

Dave

Bill,

You can't apply room-correctional to 7.1 input path. In my opinion, a well recorded 2-channel CD should be played through a 2-channel path. I've not found a system that I like that can properly take a 2-channel music and re-mix it into a 5-channel playback.

Music and movies typically use two different recording methods. Typically movies add acoustical (proximity reflection that bounce off of the objects) effects in their proper acoustical space by placing individual microphones such a front, right, left and surrounds.

2-channel recordings rely on us to properly place our speakers in order to recreate an illusion of stereo effect of the stereo image. For example, you'll need to play a mono-correlated pink noise through your speakers in order to for you to hear a single column of noise in your front-center location and not being able to hear the tone that coming out of the left or the right speaker.

I can't comment on room corrections since I've never heard the music with room corrections applied.
Edited by AlxG - 3/22/13 at 10:23am

Agreed - love it!

Dave

My speakers are flat down to the low 20's, so I agree with you.
I use the 7.1 and Pure Direct and I believe it provides the most accurate and detailed sound in my room.

I also go so far as to turn off all video processing including: Standby pass-through, Lip-Sync, Video Conversion, and I set Video Mode to Game.

My speakers lowest impedance is 3 ohms so they are moderately hard to drive.
Currently, I am using the Outlaw 7500 (made my ATI) but I have an ATI3005 on order for a little extra juice.

I did not get the 7 channel amp to bi-amp because the owners and folks at ATI said it was unnecessary. I can always upgrade the ATI3005 and add the two channels.
I like its peak indicator so I can have some idea if I am clipping the amp. Most owners say they never see it come on, so I expect that I am all set.
This is a beast of an amp.

- Rich

Hey Rich. What was your conclusion of the Outlaw 7900, and why did you end up going with the ATI?

Oh yeah, I forgot.

I got an answer back from Marantz:

From what I read the amp's input impedance should be 10 times the output impedance.
So the >10K ohm impedance is not problem bi-amping with a >10K impedance amp.

Unfortunately the B-Stock 7900 is no longer available.
After reading posts from ATI 3000 series owners and emailing ATI, I decided the ATI 3000 (essentially the same as the 7900) should have no problem powering my Salons.
IMO, The ATI is not as pretty as the Outlaw but it does have a peak indicator so I can see if I am clipping.
Also, I can always get it upgraded to a 7 channel should I get the urge

- Rich

Do you feel this takes the 8801 to a new level in SQ & video?

So do you feel that that amp would match up well if you used it without biamping?

I've decided to bi-amp, based on the classical music material that I listen to. Way too many times, the average musical passage is recorded & played-back at low volume levels. So naturally, I crank-up the volume and with my luck the crescendo kicks-in and scares the living lights out of me. During some of crescendos, the peak to average ratio can be as high as 30dB (1,000 more) which can easily not only fry the tweeter but also the midrange driver.

[Dramatization for illustration purposes] Let's assume, our average playback requires 1 Watt, and during crescendo, the amp is being asked to sink 1,000 Watts into the speaker. And, if the amp can't deliver 1,000 Watts... The output stage will saturate and produce enormous amount of intermodulation distortion and in wost case the sine waves will become square wave .. will fry the tweeter and midrange drivers.

There's very high probability that low frequencies will demand much higher output levels, the bass section amplifier may clip ... However, its clipped signal will not cross-couple into mids and highs if the speaker is bi-amped with 2 separate amplifiers.

There is an article which states that 50% of power will be distributed for frequencies from 50-350 Hz, and other 50% from 350-20,000Hz. Base on my initial calculation, it's around 200Hz.

I tried bi amping and unless you bypass the internal crossovers of the speakers I feel it sounds worse, the crossovers are limiting what your trying to achieve. True bi amping is with an external crossover. Why not just add more power?

Rich,

I agree with your approach. If you would bi-amp 7900, the bass and midrange amp would look like 5kOhms load to AV8801. Since the amp's input is not a constant impedance, the impedancy will vary with change in applied amplitude and frequency... No one would know how your preamp and amp would interact unless you'd try it out.

What does internal or external cross-over have to do with bi-amping.

In my situation, the crossover in my mid/highs module is a high pass filter with a cut-off frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies are attenuated by the filter below 200Hz... And the bass section has low pass with a cut-off filter frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies above 200Hz get attenuated.

Unfortunately, there are lots of speaker with bi-amp section that operate at 2kHz , which in my opinion is useless.

Have you tried to bi-amp you speaker with physically two separate amplifiers?

I've assigned the XLR input to the CD path for using the Oppo 105's XLR outs for easy 2/ch switching and I leave Bluray for hdmi and switch the input signal to 7.1 when I rarely use it from the Oppo. when "Pure Direct" is selected its not "Digitized" at all on the CD input if the XLR input is assigned there, unless its not the "Pure Direct "mode.

You are indeed correct I use Audyssey for all multi channel playback and the sound leaves a non Audyessy multich in the dust! its new for me as i use to use the 7.1 inputs to an Anthem avm 20.v2 from an Oppo 95 and with my room well treated I would argue till blue in the face there could be no need for additional harm to the signal (DSD purist here) kal and a few others have been trying to tell us this for years and I whole heartily believe them now and as a result my sacd collection is now growing faster as I scramble to get my hands on more multich recordings, It can be added the way the 8801 handles all signals with "Kid gloves" and is capable of unleashing there full sonic potential while maintaining its tonal and Harmonic integrity

Thanks for educating me:D

Since I've never heard music with Odyssey engages, I can't begin to form an opinion. It's good to know that it improve the sound quality.

How does it sound with 2-channel music material and a 2-channel playback mode?

It has everything to do with, or else why did so many high end speaker companies stop making separate binding posts to bi amp? One answer, because people were messing up the "the sound" of their speaker, the one thing that sets them apart from others. That's why IMO my Revel's sounded no different when bi amped, I think they are made that way. I bi amped with my Sunfire 7 channel amp. But it makes no difference, it's an identical amp powering the woofers and an identical amp powering the mids and highs. Hey if it makes people feel good then go ahead but there's nothing to gain, unless you bypass the internal crossovers and go external. It's not just my opinion it's shared by many in the audio world. I should of just said dude it's a gimmick if you think your internal crossovers aren't limiting you when bi amping then check out what I state. Have you ever read a serious review where the reviewer says I have speaker X bi amped with certain amps? Nope and there's a reason.
Edited by comfynumb - 3/22/13 at 1:33pm

I have not had an AV8801 in my system, whether stock or upgraded. I can only speak of my SE Onkyo PR-SC5508 vs other processors that I've had. I like it so much, I'm kind of wondering if the demo Krell S-1200U 3D that I will be getting next week will be any better. I have had an SE Marantz AV8003, and it was also very nice. Definitely better than the stock AV7005 I also had. The video improvement is amazing, and the SQ gets clearer, tighter bass, and more refined (after many hours of break in). I imagine the AV8801 would improve in those areas as well. I like my SE Onkyo better than the $8K Arcam AV888 I had, so it's quite a good value too. And, he provides a 14 day money back guarantee.

Dave

It's an interesting option that I use on occasion with my mains set to small and sub engaged with Audyssey on 2/ch lets shall we say the music is presented differently or perhaps the timing is better preserved as the corrected acoustics allows for more precise imaging and better defined bass, its not what one is use to if your normally use to listening to 2/ch without it but upon listening for a while I like what it brings to the table , you do have the option as well to bypas the FR/FL and Audyssey all else in this case correct only the sub to hear the difference it can make. I also like to use the Dnamic EQ as it restores the fullness to the sound. upon some quick A/B between it and the 105 in pure direct it can come up flat sounding until your ears get use to the sound of it again, but its definitely something one will have to judge for ones self.

I personally like it and only brings more enjoyment to my music when I want something different

Yes, according to Marantz it should.
The Outlaw is same input impedance as the Sunfire.

- Rich

I have the XLR assigned, COAX, HDMI, and 7.1 all assigned to the Blu-ray input.
I switch by sending the direct input codes from my Pronto.
Switching is <1 second so it is very easy to compare without delay.
I stand by my observations.

What makes you think that Pure Direct does not digitize the XLR inputs.
Bass management and all other features work.
Did you open the case and observe the path of the bits?
The manual is vague.

- Rich

It is good that you did not hear a difference bi-amping.
You should not have. The only purpose would be to prevent clipping from the bass affecting the highs.

Sunfire amps are not easily clipped

- Rich

I looked in the dust and could not find your sound

- Rich

I need a little help, please!

I’ve just got my AV8801 and I’m wondering if there is a difference in sound quality installing it with the Panamax 5400 or direct in the outlet (I know that Panamax doesn’t work well with power amplifiers)

If you have seen my posts, you know I am not a fan.
You can try it though, but I doubt there will be any difference.
I understand the desire to protect your gear.

- Rich

I would definetly plug into the Panamax. The reason the rule of thumb is to not plug a power amp into the power conditioner is the current draw limitations. The amp needs to draw more current. The 8801 is a pre-amp and does not draw enough current to warrant the afore mentioned scenario. Stable voltage and electronics are a good match.