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Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 158

post #4711 of 11320
I fully understand the power requirements, but see no reason to change the feature as it is currently designed.
post #4712 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

I fully understand the power requirements, but see no reason to change the feature as it is currently designed.

Do you work for D&M?

- Rich
post #4713 of 11320
Nope. Merely expressing my opinion. smile.gif
Edited by jdsmoothie - 4/4/13 at 4:50pm
post #4714 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

I fully understand the power requirements, but see no reason to change the feature as it is currently designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Do you work for D&M?

- Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Nope.

Good because this feature serves only a few purposes:

1) Limits to volume for environmental reasons or as a personal preference
2) Limits the volume to protect your speakers
3) Limits the volume to protect your amp

The current implantation does 1) just fine.
But, IMHO, 2 and 3 could use an improvement. wink.gif

- Rich
post #4715 of 11320
I'm with Rich. 10db is perceived by the human ear as being twice as loud. And it also takes 10 times the amplifier power to achieve. So you might end up having to set your 300 watt amp and speakers so they can either use 50 watts or 500 watts. This makes the feature pretty useless (for it's intended purpose) and I don't see how that is matter of opinion smile.gif.
post #4716 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No, rather only a feature of Denon AVRs.

thanks, jd
post #4717 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

I'm with Rich. 10db is perceived by the human ear as being twice as loud. And it also takes 10 times the amplifier power to achieve. So you might end up having to set your 300 watt amp and speakers so they can either use 50 watts or 500 watts. This makes the feature pretty useless (for it's intended purpose) and I don't see how that is matter of opinion smile.gif.

Thanks.

Are you having any transformer or speaker hum issues with your ATI 2007?

I have a bit of both with the ATI 3005 connected via XLR.
I am working in it with ATI and they suggested trying the RCA unbalanced connections.

The Speakers are exhibiting tweeter hiss and lower frequency hum coming from the midrange.
When I disconnect the XLR connection but leave the speakers connected to the amp, the speakers are dead silent.

- Rich
post #4718 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

I'm with Rich. 10db is perceived by the human ear as being twice as loud. And it also takes 10 times the amplifier power to achieve. So you might end up having to set your 300 watt amp and speakers so they can either use 50 watts or 500 watts. This makes the feature pretty useless (for it's intended purpose) and I don't see how that is matter of opinion smile.gif.

I guess it just depends on perspective. I've never used the max volume setting on any processor I've owed. Far as I'm concerned it's a useless function in entirety.
post #4719 of 11320
Thanks for the suggestions and there seems to be a lot of members using those amps with the AV8801. I've been pricing them too along with the 7-150W Sherbourn amp.
post #4720 of 11320
I saw some posts a few pages back RE triggers...anyone else having lingering issues with triggers? Can't seem to get the triggers to work with my w4s amp.
post #4721 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I saw some posts a few pages back RE triggers...anyone else having lingering issues with triggers? Can't seem to get the triggers to work with my w4s amp.

I have used the AV8801 with a Sunfire 7400, Outlaw 7500, and ATI 3005 and all trigger properly.
What does w4s say about it?

- Rich
post #4722 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have used the AV8801 with a Sunfire 7400, Outlaw 7500, and ATI 3005 and all trigger properly.
What does w4s say about it?

- Rich

Nothing yet as I just connected things tonight. Haven't reached out. At least one other member has experienced issues:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1431914/marantz-av8801-preamp-processor-official-owners-thread/4500#post_23143298
post #4723 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I guess it just depends on perspective. I've never used the max volume setting on any processor I've owed. Far as I'm concerned it's a useless function in entirety.

For sure. Unfortunately it's also an entirely useless function, even for those who DO want to use it. biggrin.gif

Not a deal breaker either way, but it would be nice if it worked.
Edited by steve71 - 4/5/13 at 12:22am
post #4724 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Thanks.

Are you having any transformer or speaker hum issues with your ATI 2007?

I have a bit of both with the ATI 3005 connected via XLR.
I am working in it with ATI and they suggested trying the RCA unbalanced connections.

The Speakers are exhibiting tweeter hiss and lower frequency hum coming from the midrange.
When I disconnect the XLR connection but leave the speakers connected to the amp, the speakers are dead silent.

- Rich

I'm using the single ended inputs, since that's all my current pre-pro has. I don't have any hum or hiss and my speakers are 102db/w/m. I've had issues before with hum with XLR's and it can be a real PITA to diagnose. Have you tried a cheater plug to life the ground (at least as a temporary solution to trouble shoot)?
post #4725 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

I saw some posts a few pages back RE triggers...anyone else having lingering issues with triggers? Can't seem to get the triggers to work with my w4s amp.

Maybe I should clarify - the trigger is on when the unit is off, so the amp stays on.. I've turned off HDMI pass through off. It's definitely a setting off - when I go through the trigger set-up, and turn it off for the given input I'm on, the amp turns off - so its working, its just staying powered when I switch off the unit. Any ideas?

--EDIT--

OK, so while that was working at one point, it no longer is. When I toggle the trigger for a given input, it no longer turns off the amp. Anyone suggestions?
Edited by vigga - 4/4/13 at 8:28pm
post #4726 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

If one of the other zones is still on, the trigger will stay on. Could this be it possibly?

This was the solution - thanks. Turns out all of the zones were on. Don't know if that is default, or I did it somehow inadvertently...trigger now working as predicted.
post #4727 of 11320
I was not able to solve the trigger problem and Marantz is taking care of the shipping to the service center. Hopefully it's just a relay issue- for a quick turn around.

Initially, my triggers operated correctly but after the current update; they stopped functioning. It might just be a coincidence with the timing/firmware; I don't know.

Brian
post #4728 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcampa View Post

Can someone help me out, Last Thursday I received my 8801 and hooked everything up but for some reason the Marantz does not see my Oppo bdp-83 and I am unable to connect any video or audio. I have read previous post where there was a similar issues but nothing on the fix., I unplugged and plugged everything back in with no luck. I have contacted Marantz via email twice and have not received a reply I have also contacted oppo and they did not reply back.

Any help or guidance would be appreciated Thanks

I have a BDP-83 connected to my Marantz and also to my projector (before I got the Marantz my previous processor didn't support 3D so I had to connect my BDP-83 directly to my monitor. Anyway, My BDP-83 works just fine with my AV8801. I only use HDMI.
post #4729 of 11320
I suggest thinking twice before connecting both RCAs and XLRs to the same output and using both at the same time. The RCA is likely taken off one leg of the XLR (balanced circuit). This will put one leg of the input to which the XLR is connected and parallel with the RCA input. This will greatly reduce the common mode interference rejection of the circuit. Example: RCA connected to 30K ohm input impedance on say an amplifier. XLR connected to 30K ohm input on each leg, 60K ohm in total on a different amplifier. The effective impedance of the XLR/RCA side will be 30K/2 = 15K ohms. The impedance of the other leg will remain unchanged at 30K ohms. This will make the balanced (XLR) circuit badly unbalanced and reduce the interference (common mode) rejection.
post #4730 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

I suggest thinking twice before connecting both RCAs and XLRs to the same output and using both at the same time. The RCA is likely taken off one leg of the XLR (balanced circuit). This will put one leg of the input to which the XLR is connected and parallel with the RCA input. This will greatly reduce the common mode interference rejection of the circuit. Example: RCA connected to 30K ohm input impedance on say an amplifier. XLR connected to 30K ohm input on each leg, 60K ohm in total on a different amplifier. The effective impedance of the XLR/RCA side will be 30K/2 = 15K ohms. The impedance of the other leg will remain unchanged at 30K ohms. This will make the balanced (XLR) circuit badly unbalanced and reduce the interference (common mode) rejection.

To which post are you referring to ?
post #4731 of 11320
I’m not sure what you are trying to say about power and bi-amping. Using your example: we have a speaker with a 350 Hz crossover with driven with content such that half the power is driving frequencies below 350 Hz and half those above. We use a 100 watt amplifier (rated at the point at which distortion hits 1%, that is, into clipping) connected to the speaker without bi-amping, with the amplifier putting out a voltage which puts 100 watts into the speaker. We will get a certain loudness from the speaker.

If we connect the speaker in a bi-amped configuration using two 100 watt amplifiers the load will be 50 watts per amplifier with amplifiers driven at the same level and thus putting out the same voltage level to the speaker. We’ll put out 100 watts total from the amplifiers and get the same loudness from the speaker. If we now increase the drive from the preamp to the amplifiers such that the voltage output is increased by 6 dB we will get a 3 dB increase in power output from each amplifier. This will again take the amplifiers to 1% distortion. Assuming the speakers can take this added power, and assuming I’ve gotten my dB’s correct, with the 6 dB increase in voltage, we’ll get a 3 dB increase in loudness.

Speaker manufacturers don’t promote bi-amping because it would put them at a competitive disadvantage. Even if a speaker sound better bi-amped the speaker manufacturer would be loath to advertise that fact. Another speaker manufacturer would say, even if it wasn’t true; our speaker takes only one amplifier to sound best and that other brand takes two. You don’t need to spend another $1,000 or $10,000 or $50,000 on another two channels of amplification.

Many amplifier manufacturers won’t promote bi-amping because that drives the purchaser to home theater amplifiers with provide added channels at a much lower cost. An overpriced $10,000 stereo amplifier seems all the more ludicrous if the cost is upped to $20,000 for two.

Dealers want to sell those megabuck stereo amps, not much lower priced home theatre amplifiers. They are also afraid customers will go to vendors like Outlaw Audio once they decide on a home theatre amplifier.

There is almost no one making money by recommending bi-amping and many firms who believe they will lose money.
post #4732 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by vigga View Post

This was the solution - thanks. Turns out all of the zones were on. Don't know if that is default, or I did it somehow inadvertently...trigger now working as predicted.

It happens when you use the POWER ON button. Instead use an individual source button to power on the main zone only.
post #4733 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

To which post are you referring to ?
Methinks this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

I suggest thinking twice before connecting both RCAs and XLRs to the same output and using both at the same time. The RCA is likely taken off one leg of the XLR (balanced circuit). This will put one leg of the input to which the XLR is connected and parallel with the RCA input. This will greatly reduce the common mode interference rejection of the circuit.
It will affect it, but not as much as you think.
Quote:
Example: RCA connected to 30K ohm input impedance on say an amplifier. XLR connected to 30K ohm input on each leg, 60K ohm in total on a different amplifier. The effective impedance of the XLR/RCA side will be 30K/2 = 15K ohms. The impedance of the other leg will remain unchanged at 30K ohms. This will make the balanced (XLR) circuit badly unbalanced and reduce the interference (common mode) rejection.
You forgot that the impedance on the XLR signal paths is dominated by the output source impedance of the preamp's XLR output stage. Probably on the order of 100 ohms. That would make the ratio 99.667/99.338, which limits CMRR to -50 dB. Still pretty good.
post #4734 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

I’m not sure what you are trying to say about power and bi-amping. Using your example: we have a speaker with a 350 Hz crossover with driven with content such that half the power is driving frequencies below 350 Hz and half those above. We use a 100 watt amplifier (rated at the point at which distortion hits 1%, that is, into clipping) connected to the speaker without bi-amping, with the amplifier putting out a voltage which puts 100 watts into the speaker. We will get a certain loudness from the speaker.

If we connect the speaker in a bi-amped configuration using two 100 watt amplifiers the load will be 50 watts per amplifier with amplifiers driven at the same level and thus putting out the same voltage level to the speaker. We’ll put out 100 watts total from the amplifiers and get the same loudness from the speaker.
I'm with you so far. wink.gif
Quote:
If we now increase the drive from the preamp to the amplifiers such that the voltage output is increased by 6 dB we will get a 3 dB increase in power output from each amplifier.
A dB is a dB. If the voltage increases by 6 dB, the power increases by 6 dB. But that is not the main issue here.
Quote:
This will again take the amplifiers to 1% distortion. Assuming the speakers can take this added power, and assuming I’ve gotten my dB’s correct, with the 6 dB increase in voltage, we’ll get a 3 dB increase in loudness.
Forgetting about the dB math, if the 100w amps driving the bi-amp'd speaker can be driven harder without clipping, then so can that same amp when connected full range. The power supply rails are the same (except for whatever sag happens under the full range load), so the clipping voltage will be essentially the same. Assuming a decent amp, the speaker will not play any louder when driven bi-amp'd than single amp'd.
post #4735 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Methinks this one.
It will affect it, but not as much as you think.
You forgot that the impedance on the XLR signal paths is dominated by the output source impedance of the preamp's XLR output stage. Probably on the order of 100 ohms. That would make the ratio 99.667/99.338, which limits CMRR to -50 dB. Still pretty good.

Ahh!
post #4736 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm with you so far. wink.gif
A dB is a dB. If the voltage increases by 6 dB, the power increases by 6 dB. But that is not the main issue here.
Forgetting about the dB math, if the 100w amps driving the bi-amp'd speaker can be driven harder without clipping, then so can that same amp when connected full range. The power supply rails are the same (except for whatever sag happens under the full range load), so the clipping voltage will be essentially the same. Assuming a decent amp, the speaker will not play any louder when driven bi-amp'd than single amp'd.

The power usage increases on the high end but from what to what.
Tweeters do not use 50 watts. Voltage increases and so does power just 50 watts is not the number.

I agree. It is all about clipping.
And since clipping will likely occur from driving the low end, any artifacts produced will not affect the upper frequencies; protecting them from clipping.

I have played my Salons at reference level with the clip indicators well lit. But at -3DB they rarely lit.
It is likely that if I bi-amped with the AT3005, I may not clip either.

However, it is not really worth it to me because, my amp will not clip at any level I am interested in listening too.

- Rich
post #4737 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by vcampa View Post

Can someone help me out, Last Thursday I received my 8801 and hooked everything up but for some reason the Marantz does not see my Oppo bdp-83 and I am unable to connect any video or audio. I have read previous post where there was a similar issues but nothing on the fix., I unplugged and plugged everything back in with no luck. I have contacted Marantz via email twice and have not received a reply I have also contacted oppo and they did not reply back.

Any help or guidance would be appreciated Thanks

I have an Oppo 95 and not the 83. On the 95, there are two outputs. If at one time, you turned one of them off and were using the other, then you want to be sure that you're using the output that is still on.

The preferred connection for the 95 is to output the better output directly to your display/projector and to run the other through your receiver/preamp for audio.
post #4738 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm with you so far. wink.gif
Forgetting about the dB math, if the 100w amps driving the bi-amp'd speaker can be driven harder without clipping, then so can that same amp when connected full range. The power supply rails are the same (except for whatever sag happens under the full range load), so the clipping voltage will be essentially the same. Assuming a decent amp, the speaker will not play any louder when driven bi-amp'd than single amp'd.

+1

That's the bottom line.
post #4739 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have played my Salons at reference level with the clip indicators well lit. But at -3DB they rarely lit.
It is likely that if I bi-amped with the AT3005, I may not clip either.

However, it is not really worth it to me because, my amp will not clip at any level I am interested in listening too.

- Rich

You have the ability to prove to yourself that what I and Roger are saying is true.

Although, I understand too why you might not want to.
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/5/13 at 6:03am
post #4740 of 11320
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I have an Oppo 95 and not the 83. On the 95, there are two outputs. If at one time, you turned one of them off and were using the other, then you want to be sure that you're using the output that is still on.

The preferred connection for the 95 is to output the better output directly to your display/projector and to run the other through your receiver/preamp for audio.

The BDP-83 has only 1 HDMI. The 93/95 was Oppos first with 2 outputs.
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