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Should I buy a Denon AVP-A1HDCI now? - Page 3

post #61 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Keith, I agree with much of your post and appreciate the effort you put into it. I wanted to do a level-matched BAB prior to purchase but circumstances didn't permit.

But allow me to point out that I fully expected the Emo to sound better than the AVR4310 int amps in the case of the 4310-and in a nonblind A/B/A it "did", but the diff was a lack of distortion and maintenance of dynamics at volume. That made sense to me as the 4310 was just overtaxed with my Dalis. Despite the 4311's int amps being rated to 4 ohms I had my doubts and really expected the Emo to sound better than the AVR, maybe not quite as much, but better. But it "did not". I was surprised and impressed with the 4311's amps. Because of that experience and the many things I'd read similar to several of the points you made above, I was quite skeptical and really did not expect the Halcro to sound better than the Emo. I don't mean to represent that my lack of conscious expectation bias proves anything. I could well be mistaken as to SQ difference, but I was really surprised at the sound of the Halcro. And hesitant to post about it prior to a BAB.biggrin.gif

I still intend to do a BAB when I can arrange a willing and qualified assistant. If it turns out that I can't tell the diff, then I could easily sell the Halcro. The good thing about getting such good deals on used gear in exc cond is that I've never had a problem unloading it. In fact, I usually can manage a slight profit.

 

Hi SoM... nice to have you back from the 'real life' stuff that's been keeping you away from the important stuff :)

 

I'd expect the 4311 to sound as good as the Emo amp - in fact I'd expect them to sound as good as each other - ie no difference at all. Unless the 4311 was having a problem driving the speakers to the levels required or coping with the load the speakers are presenting. When I got my first Emo amp I had an Onkyo 5007 AVR which was their flagship at the time. I’d say the amps in it would be on a par with the 4311's - that is, good amps. But I also had at that time some speakers that were 4 ohm, that dipped to about 2 ohm at some frequencies and that were also pretty inefficient - and my 5007 just couldn't hack it. The XPA-3 made a very clear audible difference at high SPLs - for all the scientifically based reasons we'd expect.  I'd also have expected the 4310 amp to sound as good as the 4311 and as good as the Emo IF it had been working within its design parameters. I am not one of those who say "all amps sound the same" - what I say is that all modern well-designed amps sound the same so long as they are working within their design parameters

 

It would be awesome if you could get the rig and the switch required to do a blind ABX test with the Halcro and the Emo, with proper 0.5dB level matching etc - but it is real hard to arrange. Meanwhile, there is only one thing that matters: what it sounds like to you. And from what you say you are more than happy! Like I said to those clients, over and over, perception is reality. So if you perceive it as betterm then it IS better. As you can guess, I am  sceptical;)  Unless there is a good reason for the Emo not working within its design parameters which I am unaware of.

 

I also think your model of buying top quality gear on the previously-owned market is fantastic. I wish I could do the same - it would be my sole model too - but over here there just isn’t the market for this sort of gear that you have in the USA, unfortunately. We have a lot of 'audiophile' (read 'overpriced') gear and a lot of 'entry level' gear on sale and that is about it. I have sourced a lot of my gear in the US but the 20% duty we have to add and the cost of carriage usually makes it prohibitively costly. In fact, thinking about it, my entire system is more or less US - Emo amps, Oppo BD player, M&K speakers, SVS subs... I am currently lusting after a pair of Seaton Submersives - but the cost of carriage and the duty horrifies me. Fortunately, Mark doesn't have a 240v version of the latest Submersives available yet, so it's a decision that is easy to delay ;)

post #62 of 111
Thread Starter 
Here's the new look of my family room/HT with the 65" 8000 series LED Samsung and the StandOut Designs Horizon cabinet in black stained solid oak. First pic is for regular TV viewing, TV against the wall.
IMG_0119.jpg 2663k .jpg file
It looks very clean, unobtrusive and is a good size at MLP. For perspective, keep in mind that the speakers are 48" tall and the cabinet is 72" wide.

IMG_0120.jpg 2815k .jpg file
Second pic is with TV mount extended out another 34" for movies etc. It almost looks like Feri's photoshop pic! This size screen is very impressive at 10' and that adds tremendously to movies and sports enjoyment. I am very, very pleased.

As an added bonus the CC is now at ideal height.

Thnx to you all of you for your excellent suggestions. And in particular, Bill Mac for pointing me towards Forum sponsor StandoutDesigns. Very nice fit and finish, an excellent value (20% off sale!) and delivered within days.
post #63 of 111
Congrats SoM! Looks very very nice!
post #64 of 111
Congrats SoM, looks much better than the PhotoShopped version. Enjoy your new system! smile.gif
post #65 of 111
Thread Starter 
Thnx for the complements David and Feri. It took me a lot of time and effort but I feel it came together nicely. smile.gif
post #66 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Hi. This thread was about buying a AVP-A1, because of its DACs etc etc. wondering if it was worth the negatives to replace my AVR A100 (4311).  But yours is a very  interesting post nonetheless. 

 

I am a DBP A100 (4010) owner-it replaced my Oppo 83 because of the sonic benefits of DenonLink vs HDMI for SACD, DVDA, RBCD.  

 

I  have considered the Oppo103 wondering if its digital output is superior to the old 83.  I don't value the DACs and analog/balanced connections of the 105 (or theA1UDCI) as I need and always use DSP RC ie MultEQXT32 in the with Audyssey Pro kit. 

post #67 of 111
Thread Starter 

Hey Guys!

 

Yup I've successfully fought off SQ upgraditis for a year since I posed the question on this thread.  I've been happily listening to my DBPA100 and AVR A100 with the jitter-free DenonLink connection that enhances all music shiny discs I play and building that disc collection. I still have 2 years left on the OEM warranties as these are 100th Anniv Editions but they have been in service for 3 yrs.  Though I've thought about streaming music off the computer HD I really haven't done much except rip a few CDs to iTunes so I can listen to them on my phone. 

 

Anyone interested can skim the first post of the thread for some background info on my other gear, etc., but to summarize the outcome, see this post above: I've enjoyed the new big HDTV (tho it's not 4K), I feel XT32 and Audyssey Pro were very worthwhile upgrades sonically and I love my Dali speakers.:)

 

So why am I resurrecting this old thread, especially as I'd settled comfortably into waiting out "the next big thing" (or at least next year's models;)). My Samsung 3D player just died and it'll cost about $100 to replace. 

 

Nah...that's true but what got me going was that Denon just announced a really special deal till the end of the month and that disturbed my placidity. Including th $150 for a new Audyssey Pro license,  minus that I  can likely sell my A100 gear for a good price so net cost should be well under $500.  These units use the new DenonLinkHD so overall my SQ and PQ should be as good or slightly better for all shiny discs, and networking capability somewhat improved. Both models have been out a year, have proven reliable, but will likely be replaced within a year.   It's tempting but not compelling for me.

 

So clearly I never bought a AVP-A1.  Not that I wasn't sorely tempted a few months ago when a couple choice ones with the XT32 upgrade  were offered on Agon by an out of state dealer for about $3K (MSRP $7.5K+$1K upgrade cost-wow).  He was upgrading several of his high-end customers to the new D&M Holdings  flagship pre/pro, the Marantz AV8801.  He even managed to talk me out of the A1! :D I'm glad he did, mostly because on reflection the A1 is simply getting too old for me to reasonably invest in at this point; apparently some replacement boards are already scarce, technology is moving on and there'll be no more upgrades. Plus it's kinda scarey to ship that essentially irreplaceable beast.  

 

So that dealer got me thinking more about the highly respected AV8801 (Kal Rubinson, etc). One can be had new for more than $1K off the $3.6K MSRP  I already own good amps so really don't need an AVR.  There's no DenonLink so I'd sell my Denons-and get a new Oppo 103! Total pkg with new Pro license would cost me about $3K so net upgrade cost to me should be under $1.5K, (plus$100 more more if I go for the 103 with Darbee processor built-in).  The 8801 has a mystique the 4520 does not, though I'm not sure that would translate to better SQ, especially as I'm giving up DenonLink. The Oppo is a very high value, reliable unit and AFAIK it has more streaming capability and flexibilty than any Denon.   

 

So I'll rename/repurpose this thread to "Should I sell my Denon gear now (which is still pretty current, is of good quality and therefore still has good resale) for more current gear with improved streaming capability (and perhaps improved SQ) and if so what gear-or just relax and sit tight?"


Edited by SoundofMind - 10/14/13 at 2:42pm
post #68 of 111

I'd buy a good AVR over a prepro. I say this even having Onkyo's flagship prepro, the 5509. I bought the 5509 because, at the time, Onkyo didn’t have an AVR that was Audyssey Pro ready so I had no choice but to buy the prepro. Now, Onkyo has the 3010 and 5010 AVRs which have Xt32 and are Pro-ready (here in Europe). So if I was making the decision today, I'd buy the 3010. Why? because AVRs are cheaper than prepros, the internal amps are useful albeit not needed - but they come 'free' so why not have them?  Better to have and not need than need and not have. Useful backup if my externals fail etc. 

 

I do not believe there is a jot of difference in SQ between the AVR and its equivalent prepro, but there is a big difference in price usually. 

 

So for me, it would always be an AVR now, with preouts, XT32 and Pro-ready.  YMMV of course...

post #69 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd buy a good AVR over a prepro. I say this even having Onkyo's flagship prepro, the 5509. I bought the 5509 because, at the time, Onkyo didn’t have an AVR that was Audyssey Pro ready so I had no choice but to buy the prepro. Now, Onkyo has the 3010 and 5010 AVRs which have Xt32 and are Pro-ready (here in Europe). So if I was making the decision today, I'd buy the 3010. Why? because AVRs are cheaper than prepros, the internal amps are useful albeit not needed - but they come 'free' so why not have them?  Better to have and not need than need and not have. Useful backup if my externals fail etc. 

I do not believe there is a jot of difference in SQ between the AVR and its equivalent prepro, but there is a big difference in price usually. 

So for me, it would always be an AVR now, with preouts, XT32 and Pro-ready.  YMMV of course...

Keith,

I agree with your thoughts as I'm quite happy using the 4311 as a prepro smile.gif. The money I saved over buying a dedicated prepro allowed me to spend more on SACDs eek.gif. Have I mentioned that I have an issue with buying SACDs biggrin.gif?

Bill
post #70 of 111
SoM,

As much as I'd love to have the 8801 in my rack I'm sticking with the 4311 for now. To be honest I'd recommend staying with the A100 / DBPA100 combo unless you really feel the need to upgrade. I honestly feel the 4520 / 3313 combo would be a lateral move over what you have now. The 8801 could very well be an improvement in SQ over the A100 but how much? If you want or need streaming capabilities then I'm sure you could find a device to handle that at a reasonable cost. My next upgrade is adding another Rythmik F12SE. I think it is time to step up to the big leagues and add a second sub wink.gif.

Bill
post #71 of 111
Thread Starter 

Keith, I absolutely agree that the biggest factors irt SQ in any model I'm considering are exactly those you mentioned: "...preouts, XT32 and Pro-ready."  I would normally add DenonLink to the list, but with the praises heaped on the Marantz, I'm considering whether that's a "must-have" for me musically.  

 

Bill, I am happy you're happy with the 4311! :D  I was wondering after seeing you visit various other processor threads.  And especially when you started  listening to 2 ch music without Audyssey through a HT bypass preamp and amp in your system. 

 

As you know, I  tested several HT Bypass preamps and they yielded nice SQ, but since XT32 with Pro and DenonLink,  I believe I've pretty close to that SQ plus the SQ sonic benefit of DSPRC in my untreated room.  So your advice is very well-considered, as usual, and most appreciated.

 

 

post #72 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Bill, I am happy you're happy with the 4311! biggrin.gif   I was wondering after seeing you visit various other processor threads.  And especially when you started  listening to 2 ch music without Audyssey through a HT bypass preamp and amp in your system. 

As you know, I  tested several HT Bypass preamps and they yielded nice SQ, but since XT32 with Pro and DenonLink,  I believe I've pretty close to that SQ plus the SQ sonic benefit of DSPRC in my untreated room.  So your advice is very well-considered, as usual, and most appreciated.


SoM,

As always it is my pleasure smile.gif. I honestly think all three options you are considering are all very good. I think which ever option you chose you'll have excellent sound in your room without a doubt.

Bill
post #73 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd buy a good AVR over a prepro. I say this even having Onkyo's flagship prepro, the 5509. I bought the 5509 because, at the time, Onkyo didn’t have an AVR that was Audyssey Pro ready so I had no choice but to buy the prepro. Now, Onkyo has the 3010 and 5010 AVRs which have Xt32 and are Pro-ready (here in Europe). So if I was making the decision today, I'd buy the 3010. Why? because AVRs are cheaper than prepros, the internal amps are useful albeit not needed - but they come 'free' so why not have them?  Better to have and not need than need and not have. Useful backup if my externals fail etc. 

I do not believe there is a jot of difference in SQ between the AVR and its equivalent prepro, but there is a big difference in price usually. 

So for me, it would always be an AVR now, with preouts, XT32 and Pro-ready.  YMMV of course...

Keith,

I agree with your thoughts as I'm quite happy using the 4311 as a prepro smile.gif. The money I saved over buying a dedicated prepro allowed me to spend more on SACDs eek.gif. Have I mentioned that I have an issue with buying SACDs biggrin.gif?

Bill

 

I think you mentioned it once, Bill :D

post #74 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Bill, I am happy you're happy with the 4311! biggrin.gif   I was wondering after seeing you visit various other processor threads.  And especially when you started  listening to 2 ch music without Audyssey through a HT bypass preamp and amp in your system. 

As you know, I  tested several HT Bypass preamps and they yielded nice SQ, but since XT32 with Pro and DenonLink,  I believe I've pretty close to that SQ plus the SQ sonic benefit of DSPRC in my untreated room.  So your advice is very well-considered, as usual, and most appreciated.
 

SoM,

As always it is my pleasure smile.gif. I honestly think all three options you are considering are all very good. I think which ever option you chose you'll have excellent sound in your room without a doubt.

Bill

 

Absolutely. But SoM seems to be suffering from a small attack of Upgradeitis and it behoves his AVS colleagues to try to help him cure it. :)  Personally, I think he would not hear any real difference between any of the options so the best advice I could give is to stay as he is. If he really, really, really feels the need for a new piece of hardware of course, well....

post #75 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Ha-ha, nah, I definitely don't feel a "need" for new gear.  Except my Samsung 3D BRP (the Denon DBP A100 doesn't do 3D ) went on the fritz a few weeks ago and will cost at least $100 to replace.  So that made me consider whether I should instead invest in something like the Oppo103. 

 

Then the Denon promotion got me thinking that I could "strike while the iron is hot"-ie before that offer expires and while my used gear is still fairly current and would still yield a good price compared to what I paid. 

 

I agree with Bill that the Denon deal is more of a "lateral" move, basically updating and gaining a few features I can live without for now while waiting to see what next year offers.  It really wasn't all that compelling so that in turn made me rethink the Marantz 8801 purchase I'd contemplated from time to time.

post #76 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^Ha-ha, nah, I definitely don't feel a "need" for new gear.  Except my Samsung 3D BRP (the Denon DBP A100 doesn't do 3D ) went on the fritz a few weeks ago and will cost at least $100 to replace.  So that made me consider whether I should instead invest in something like the Oppo103. 

 

Well any old BD player from one of the major brands will give you identical PQ to any other via HDMI, but there may be more to consider than just PQ.  For example, the Oppos load very quickly, which removes a source of frustration. And the build quality is fabulous if that is important to you, as it is to me. It will also play pretty much any disc type you feed it and it has terrific upscaling which may be a cut above that of a lesser player. I don't see how anyone could go wrong with an Oppo TBH. I love mine, but my much older and considerably cheaper Panny DM35 gives an indistinguishable PQ of course. But boy, it takes for ever to load... 

 

 

Quote:

 Then the Denon promotion got me thinking that I could "strike while the iron is hot"-ie before that offer expires and while my used gear is still fairly current and would still yield a good price compared to what I paid. 

 

Yes, but you still have to shell out some real money to make the change. If you wait, the existing gear will be worth less, but will it be worth less by the amount you will have to shell out?  Probably not much in it. But as a purchase self-justification, it is a neat one :)

 

Quote:

 I agree with Bill that the Denon deal is more of a "lateral" move, basically updating and gaining a few features I can live without for now while waiting to see what next year offers.  It really wasn't all that compelling so that in turn made me rethink the Marantz 8801 purchase I'd contemplated from time to time.

 

I am sure you have a case of acute (or maybe even chronic) Upgradeitis... :)  The 8801 will sound exactly the same as what you have now, once you have run Audyssey. HST, the 8801 is probably shinier.... :)

post #77 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Keith, I am quite practiced at the Zen art of waiting for the Denon Player to load.:D

 

And yes, practiced as well at justifying HT/music purchases  that sane people shake their heads at. (what, a second sub?   what, bigger, even more expensive speakers?!)

 

So, sure any old 3D BRP will do for the occasional 3D movie. But that min $100 purchase could be applied instead to discount a 103 by 20%, or pay for the Darbee upgrade option in it.  The 103 Oppo has an HDMI Input, so I'd run my sat/cable thru it and thus all sources would have subtle video enhancements. 

 

AFAIK the Oppo has quite capable music streaming.  That is, if I ever get around to that....:o

 

AND a new Oppo would obviously call for a new round of A/B listening comparisons of  DenonLink vs Oppo for subtle sonic differences.  Fun!

post #78 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^Keith, I am quite practiced at the Zen art of waiting for the Denon Player to load.:D

 

And yes, practiced as well at justifying HT/music purchases  that sane people shake their heads at. (what, a second sub?   what, bigger, even more expensive speakers?!)

 

So, sure any old 3D BRP will do for the occasional 3D movie. But that min $100 purchase could be applied instead to discount a 103 by 20%, or pay for the Darbee upgrade option in it.  The 103 Oppo has an HDMI Input, so I'd run my sat/cable thru it and thus all sources would have subtle video enhancements. 

 

 

AFAIK the Oppo has quite capable music streaming.  That is, if I ever get around to that....:o

 

AND a new Oppo would obviously call for a new round of A/B listening comparisons of  DenonLink vs Oppo for subtle sonic differences.  Fun!

I wouldn't try to cure you from upgrading to the Oppo... I think it's worthwhile, but just not for PQ reasons. And it may satisfy your craving for something new and shiny - LOL!!   Go for it!

post #79 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

So I'll rename/repurpose this thread to "Should I sell my Denon gear now (which is still pretty current, is of good quality and therefore still has good resale) for more current gear with improved streaming capability (and perhaps improved SQ) and if so what gear-or just relax and sit tight?"

Going from my last Denon AVR to the 8801 the only thing I gained seem to be better streaming. Other than that I actually missed my Denon and would probably go back to one when the replacement of the 4520 is out. I don't think you will gain in sound quality unless you are prone to Placebo.
post #80 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Thanks for your input.  Can you elaborate on what was your last Denon AVR and what you miss?

post #81 of 111
Can't speak for anyone else, but I upgraded to a refurb 4311 this year and I'm extremely happy with it. Audyssey is Audyssome!

Upgrading from a 4802, I really miss the pretty red green & blue colors on the back of the receiver from the component video outputs... tongue.gif
post #82 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Yep, the 4311 is a great model and Audyssey MultEQXT32 is no small part of that.

post #83 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hey Guys!


Nah...that's true but what got me going was that Denon just announced a really special deal till the end of the month and that disturbed my placidity. Including th $150 for a new Audyssey Pro license, 

I have not bee able to locate this deal. Is this for any Denon that is pro-ready? I would be interested in upgrading to Pro on my 4311 smile.gif
post #84 of 111
Thread Starter 

^It's AVR 4520 & DBT 3313 bundled at a savings.  Call jd. :)

post #85 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^It's AVR 4520 & DBT 3313 bundled at a savings.  Call jd. smile.gif

Included in that bundle is a discounted pro license? Your other post made it sound like it was some special through Denon smile.gif
post #86 of 111
Thread Starter 

No, sorry Pro license is purchased direct from Audyssey- I was including that $150 in MY total upgrade costs, it has nothing to do with the package Denon is offering

post #87 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

No, sorry Pro license is purchased direct from Audyssey- I was including that $150 in MY total upgrade costs, it has nothing to do with the package Denon is offering

Got it - thanks. Here I was thinking I could score a pro license for $150 smile.gif
post #88 of 111
Thread Starter 

^Just to be clear, Audyssey charges $150 for a license for a Pro-ready unit, and the lic stays with that particular unit forever.  So whoever buys my used A100 gets the license with the unit  for free and can run Pro on it if they wish as long as they have a Pro kit, or hire an installer to do it.  But as I'll want to run Pro on my new upgraded model (when I eventually get a new model), I have to dish out another $150 to lic the new unit so I mentally have to include that in my overall upgrade costs. 

 

More details and info are avail on the Pro thread FAQ:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3030#post_22429521

post #89 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Just to be clear, Audyssey charges $150 for a license for a Pro-ready unit, and the lic stays with that particular unit forever.  So whoever buys my used A100 gets the license with the unit  for free and can run Pro on it if they wish as long as they have a Pro kit, or hire an installer to do it.  But as I'll want to run Pro on my new upgraded model (when I eventually get a new model), I have to dish out another $150 to lic the new unit so I mentally have to include that in my overall upgrade costs. 

More details and info are avail on the Pro thread FAQ:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3030#post_22429521

I was a little off base as well, I ment I was thinking you could get the whole pro kit for $150 smile.gif
post #90 of 111
Yes, you buy the license per box for $150. The Pro-set itself with individually measured mike, stand, mike power-supply, cables, software and carrying case costs about $500 once.
But I wanted to comment on this from kbarnes701:

'I'd buy a good AVR over a prepro. I say this even having Onkyo's flagship prepro, the 5509. I bought the 5509 because, at the time, Onkyo didn’t have an AVR that was Audyssey Pro ready so I had no choice but to buy the prepro. Now, Onkyo has the 3010 and 5010 AVRs which have Xt32 and are Pro-ready (here in Europe). So if I was making the decision today, I'd buy the 3010. Why? because AVRs are cheaper than prepros, the internal amps are useful albeit not needed - but they come 'free' so why not have them? Better to have and not need than need and not have. Useful backup if my externals fail etc.



I do not believe there is a jot of difference in SQ between the AVR and its equivalent prepro, but there is a big difference in price usually.



So for me, it would always be an AVR now, with preouts, XT32 and Pro-ready. YMMV of course...'

Well, I understand your reasons. Everything sound quite reasonable to me. However, there is a substantial difference in SQ between a dedicated pre/pro and an AVR, even with switched of power-amps.
The reason why I am writing this is, that I currently own the Denon AVP-A1 - I will never give this box away again.
I had several Onkyo AVRs and also the pre/pros 5507 and 5509 before and I can tell you: Big difference in SQ! But I have to say on every single stage form AVR to AVR plus power-amp, pre/pro with power-amp and pre/pro with better power-amp and finally with AVP-A1 plus the same prized Audionet power-amps.

We are talking here about a - list price - $25000 pre/pro power-amp combination - AVP-A1 3D, AMP V and AMP VII with five channels.

However, I bought everything used and paid about $10000 for the equipment. But (!) your approach is still much less expensive and does more or less the same, except you are searching for an excellent sound reproduction.

Please don't misunderstand me, I agree to your approach, which - according my own experience - represents a very reasonable approach to achieve good SQ. But there is more to come, if you go into the direction of an AVP-A1 and excellent power-amps.
Just wanted to mention this here, even the AVP-A1 is already history in this thread, if I am not mistaken.
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