How does Audyssey MultiEQXT32 compare to Trinnov found on S/N R-972?

That could be a tough one. Just how many Trinnov units are out there compared to Audyssey? How many comparisons could there be? The avr that had Trinnov seems to have many issues to boot, and Trinnov as a separate system is very expensive.

They are two different animals in a lot of ways. They both do EQ but Trinnov does remapping as well, which no other system currently does.

How many others are there? That was the unit I was referring to in any case....

Many in the Sherwood threads have compared it with XT32.

As far as I can remember, Trinnov always, or close to it, came out on top.

It did for me; I had a 972, then Denon 4810 and 4311, and went back to 972.

Noah, that's very interesting given your level of savvy, which I think is considerable.

So is it the re-mapping, or the general optimization prowess ofthe piece? Can you select how much effect, or is it an all or nothing proposition. I know very little about it. Do you employ other signal manipulation gear, EQs etc, or let the Trinnov take over?

I've read quite a bit about their high end stuff, but not much on the 972.

Thanks

I believe ADA is the other pre/pro to incorporate Trinnov.

Strange enough though the Sherwood 972 was a complete failure for Sherwood, the remaining stock being sold out at ultra low prices for some time now.
Several long delays at first and a lot of (mostly unresolved) technical issues afterwards concerning the way the excellent Trinnov system had been implemented by Sherwood prevented it from getting a foot into the door of the AVR market.
Just read through the corresponding thread here in the forum.
Many early adapters, who bought the unit right after it finally reached the market returned or sold their unit frustrated shortly thereafter.
Most of the current owners hopped onto the band wagon only after the remaining stock dropped to its current price hoping to get a bargain.

First off, the 972's biggest difference re Denon is that without any processing at all, the sound is better - clearer and, important with my pro woofer +compression driver speakers, more refined.

Next, the Trinnov EQ does a better job with the bass.

Finally, the remapping can result in a wonderful palpability to the sound; not only are sounds located in different locations in space, each one (or at least some, hard to keep track of them all) sounds 3-D itself.

Note the "can"; it's hit or miss with setups, and if you have the patience to keep experimenting, you may get a hit.

Noah and others,

Looking for a replacement for my Denon 987 to run my Def Tech Mythos STS pair, Mythos 9 center, and Mythos Gem surrounds.

Accessories 4 less has the Sherwood R-972 on sale for $599.

I am having handshake issues (I think) with my 987 and it is time for an upgrade. I have less than ideal speaker placement. It is the living room where I cannot move the speakers due to WAF. They are stuffed in a corner on either side of the plasma about 6-7 ft apart. Therefore, I would like to do all I can in regards to electronic correction. I thought my 987 did an ok job with Audyssey but it was not night and day.

Do you think the 972 is a good match for my speakers? They are 93dB sensitivity. The Denon 987 is rated 110 watts I think and it has just enough juice for how I like to listen. Maybe sometimes wish it could go a little louder but I am building a dedicated room at the moment for that purpose.

Any other caveats with the Sherwood 972?

Thanks for the advice.

-Grant

Thanks Noah, that's interesting. Curt Hoyt and I sat together in an audition of some superb loudspeakers in a private demo at the Westin during Cedia. We discussed Trinnov's capability and how it could further optimize what was arguably the finest, most complete demo I experienced over four days of loudspeaker demos. Trinnov is fascinating for sure, and anyone that's had the pleasure of meeting Curt Hoyt knows how compelling an argument for Trinnov he can make.

No, I've still not fully experienced what Trinnov can do, but I've experienced wonderfully immersive soundstage and imaging that possess all the characteristics I'm looking for. The price of admission is still too rich for me, at the "full Trinnov" level. Surely, as everything else dsp centric plunges in price over time, I suspect this will too. By your statements and inexpensive price, the argument could be made for experimentation with the 972.

Referring to transparency (Denon vs 972), I've found myself to be sensitive to such things. It becomes difficult to dismiss the differences too, once you lock onto the small signal path changes, it's easier and easier to clearly identify them. I've experimented so much over the course of the past 18 months or so, you tend to listen right past other elements and lock onto the particular difference. It's been fascinating for sure, but I'm transitioning away from all the analytical listening and back to pure pleasure.

Semi-relavant story, and an example; last night we went to opening night of Taken 2. Throughout the entire course of the film (digital vid in this case), there's this dude behind my son, four people down and one row behind me, continually cleared his thought during the movie perhaps as often as every 60-90 seconds or so. After we left, we're on the way home and I ask everyone what they thought of the guy clearing his throat non-stop. None of them thought anything of it, ... thinking it stopped and he only did it a few times! They could bock it out, maybe because I was so pissed about the lame audio (I went and inquired w/mgmt about how low the volume was) I couldn't get past it,...I don't know. I never once was "pulled into" the show like I typically am. Whatever, typical lame ass mediocre multiplex sound, with all the distractions. Our two previous theater outings were IMAX based. Promethus 3D, and Dark Knight Rises, both were good.

Way OT, but thanks Noah, I appreciate it. Do you perform other individual bass optimization yourself, and allow the 972 to work globally? Or let the piece do it all? Is this your primary system? I really know very little about the 972. I've been looking at pre-pros for a year or so, not compelled to pull the trigger.

Thanks

Not sure I follow; was that with a partial Trinnov experience, or...?

My system (primary, got a HK 147 for the garage):

Sherwood R-972

MiniDSP 2X4 to pre-match two subs, one is Danley DTS-10 in the middle of the front wall, the other is dual sealed MaelX-18 in 14 cf sealed box in a closet behind the middle of the back wall.

Peavey ipr 3000 for subs

Front speakers are 18Sound 12ND710 + BMS 4552ND on XT1086 horns (will replace with JBL 2206H + SEOS-12/DNA360)

Side surrounds (2 pair) are B&C 8CX21 with B&C XO-1 crossovers

Rear surrounds are NHT Super Zero's with Radioshack Linnaeum dipole tweeters (two more 8CX21's are on the way to replace them)

OPPO 83 disc player

Current Trinnov speaker is phantom center and mono back surrounds, freeing up two channels so that Trinnov can generate independent signals for all four side surrounds.

The center image is OK, but the front soundstage doesn't have the same SQ as with a real center, and I've never been satisfied with what I'm getting from the back channels, which is very little.

So I'm going to go back to a hard center and try paralleling the side surrounds; should work OK as they're about equidistant forward and behind the listening position.

Hopefully I won't have too much trouble getting Trinnov to recognize pairs of speakers.





Edited by noah katz - 10/6/12 at 3:56pm

I'm glad I got back to this, cool pics for sure.


Nice space Noah, your gear selection/choices coinciinterestinglynly with approaches I'd do.

So nice, open, simple, love to hear it. The entire thing appears quite powerful, I like the high surrounds. I contemplatsimilariliar diy effort after seeing Seaton's and JTR's B&C coax offerings.

I too have floor to ceiling glass to my right, ..... big three panel sliding glass door on the right, and a fireplace on my left. My modest room is but 12x25x8, the rear quarter being an open kitchen. I got a nice scattered, diffuse field behind the LP, .... everything else is quite the challenge.

I like the open ceiling, open appearance throughout your space.

Thanks

Thanks, it was a lot of work getting it there; I moved out the window wall from the front of the fireplace to the back. 35 sq. ft. more, but made the space feel twice as big.

You wouldn't think it with the glass/stone wall, but I think it's a bit too absorptive; I'm thinking of going to hardwood or stone floors with a throw rug in front for the floor reflection.

The sound is OK, but doesn't hold a candle to the way I had it for pure audio with the fronts on either dide and forward of the fireplace (and the couch rotated back where it belongs against the partial wall); much better 3D soundstage.

Are you referring symmetry? Is this the primary component that allows the 3D environment you're mentioning? I'm so screwed wrt symmetry, but I'm about the best I can be.



I speak of it often, however a couple years ago, in a discussion with Ethan Winer, and Dennis Erskine, I took down all my treatments and started over. Bass traps, everything, and began experimenting various types of mains and room environs to see what matters in my room, at my LP.

I concluded thus far;
I like a lot of bass trapping,but for me it's all about the sidewalls. I damp the hell out of the ceiling between the LP and mains. I damp the front wall extensively too. Theoretically diffusion is great but in my room, scattering etc, seem minimally helpful. I've never pursued real diffusion,...low fruit first.


For me a balance is needed wrt sidewall interaction. I've experimented and typically I prefer the smallest, most surgical amt. of absorption. I do like the extra ASW at times, so perhaps when I get around to 60 degree wides maybe that'll mimic what I like. It seems I like each change, for change sake.

In your room, have you noticed how much bass is damped via the huge right side glass? In mine, it's amazing how much LF gets sucked out the big triple section glass door.

Your surrounds, and their placement really interest me, the one forward the seating area, is that a wide, or surround? I thought it was surround, but seems close to ideal for wide.


Thanks

Yes, I presume the issue is lack of symmetry of sidewall reflections.

The forward high surrounds are where I had the heights for 11 ch DSX.

The left wide was in the cubbyhole in the wall above the lamp, and the right was attached to the post on the left of the fireplace.

I thought the height locations would be a good for intermediate location for Trinnov to fill in, though I'm not totally happy with the front-centric bias of the soundstage.

I'll be building an 11-ch amp so that will give me the level controls that Trinnov in the 972 implementation disallows.

The room does devour deep bass, and is inherently lumpy in the upper bass because it's essentially square.

There's 4" more of 703 behind the panels on the wall and the rug on the back wall, which improved things from really bad to just bad.

The opposite midwall sub placing and EQ fixed things pretty well.