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Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 420

post #12571 of 16402
kellybob,
Using my 105, I also just confirmed that HDCD decoding is working, as expected, on its Optical Digital output.

Tested with "Copland: The Third Symphony, etc.", Eiji Oue and the Minnesota Orchestra, Reference Recordings, RR-93CD. This is an HDCD that has the characteristic that volume is attenuated -6dB whenever HDCD decoding is engaged.

My Anthem Statement D2v does not do HDCD decoding, and so I can use an Optical input into the D2v to test this without decoding in the D2v popping up and confusing the issue.

The timpani strokes at the start of track 1, "Fanfare for the Common Man", make this test easy. With HDCD Decoding ON the output is clearly softer -- exactly the expected -6dB -- compared to HDCD Decoding OFF.

This is true regardless of whether Optical/Coax Output on the 105 is set to 192KHz LPCM rate limiting, or to Bitstream. Of course since the CD content is LPCM, the Optical Digital output is 44.1KHz LPCM 2.0 regardless of whether Bitstream is set.

For this test I also set HDMI Audio Bitstream for HDMI 1 to re-confirm that the old limitation, present in the BDP-83, really was gone in the 105. I.e., HDCD decoding can still be engaged, anyway.

I.e., no problems here, either.
--Bob
post #12572 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post

. . . .
I use 7.1 downmix (40hz crossover) with FL/FR large, sub on, center off, SL/SR off, SBL/SBR large. All trims 0. All distances 0.
. . . .

I suspect this is a significant part of your problem right here. This is not a valid configuration. With Sides OFF, Rears must also be OFF. The Speaker Configuration screen is not supposed to let you set up a configuration where Sides are OFF and Rears are LARGE.

However, that check in the Setup UI is not actually functioning. If you set all 7.1 LARGE, and then turn Sides OFF (which DOES automatically change Rears to OFF as well, as it is supposed to), you can then go change Rears back to LARGE and the firmware FAILS to also turn the Sides back on.

I'll post this as a bug to OPPO.

Since you've managed to get the OPPO into an invalid configuration, it doesn't surprise me that the resulting processing is confusing.
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 10/20/13 at 4:51pm
post #12573 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

kellybob,
Using my 105, I also just confirmed that HDCD decoding is working, as expected, on its Optical Digital output.

Tested with "Copland: The Third Symphony, etc.", Eiji Oue and the Minnesota Orchestra, Reference Recordings, RR-93CD. This is an HDCD that has the characteristic that volume is attenuated -6dB whenever HDCD decoding is engaged.

My Anthem Statement D2v does not do HDCD decoding, and so I can use an Optical input into the D2v to test this without decoding in the D2v popping up and confusing the issue.

The timpani strokes at the start of track 1, "Fanfare for the Common Man", make this test easy. With HDCD Decoding ON the output is clearly softer -- exactly the expected -6dB -- compared to HDCD Decoding OFF.

This is true regardless of whether Optical/Coax Output on the 105 is set to 192KHz LPCM rate limiting, or to Bitstream. Of course since the CD content is LPCM, the Optical Digital output is 44.1KHz LPCM 2.0 regardless of whether Bitstream is set.

For this test I also set HDMI Audio Bitstream for HDMI 1 to re-confirm that the old limitation, present in the BDP-83, really was gone in the 105. I.e., HDCD decoding can still be engaged, anyway.

I.e., no problems here, either.
--Bob
That disc has outstanding performances and great sound!
post #12574 of 16402
Bob,

Many thanks.

I briefly read over all your other testing results and will go back over them and probably do some more testing. You did clarify this one issue.


"Of course if you are playing LPCM content -- such as a CD -- then the output on the S/PDIF connections will be LPCM even if you have them set to allow Bitstream output. I.e., the issue is not whether Bitstream or LPCM is set for the Optical/Coax output, but rather whether the ACTUAL output on them is Bitstream or LPCM."

It is not the setting that determines whether or not delay is applied; it is the actual format that is being output that determines whether delay is appled.

It was my misunderstanding of the definition of bitstream that caused a problem. I did relay to Oppo several times my exact testing procedure which was using a CD and I told them what I was hearing. Last response was we are not hearing or seeing what you are reporting.

When I first started this I got the response that delay should not be applied at all to the coaxial/output. Then it was confirmed that for LPCM it should be, but not for bitstream. I think at this point, they were speaking not of settings but of the stream itself. Although the last response I got was we are not hearing or seeing what you are reporting which is a different issue. I told them the exact method I was using to test, but I never got a response that we tested as you did and you are correct, we are hearing what you hear. The last response I sent was exactly how are you testing? Anyway, I will forward all this information to them.

My system is 2 channel. My DAC is 2 channel, no decoding capabilty. If I had decoding abililty, I would have figured this out as I would have tested an encoded track set to bitstream and would have discovered no delay was being applied.

I can see no reason to apply delay to the coax/optical output and I have always found simpler sounds better. Perhaps an auto setting like the older players had which would bypass the delay for non encoded streams?

I tend to give too much information. Concerning the colorspace setting of the unused HDMI 2 output changing the sound, I mainly tested using the coaxial output and this setting does change the sound of the coaxial output. Practically EVERY setup menu item does. This is another issue. The 720P sounding better is to me rather obvious, but it did require me to be in the mood, and not rushing to first hear it. After that it is easier to hear. Many of the menu item setting are far more subtle than the resolution change. Hearing is also an ability.

720P does have less jitter than 1080P. Of all the settings available to select (source direct at the same resolution as non source direct sounds better which leads me to believe the best sounding choice would be 720P source direct) 720P sounds best. I am not sure if it has the least jitter out of all of them. I do know that Charles Hansen of Ayre explained why 720P has the least amount of jitter of the resolutions that carry full HD bandwidth and on their player they run the dedicated HDMI audio out at 720P.

I have been working on getting Oppo to switch the resolution to 720P direct (or 720P) for CD, SACD, and DVD-A and for pure audio. I would also like a menu item allowing the switch to 720P for DVD. I run most DVD's at 720P because the sound is so much better and the resolution loss is slight even though I am scaling twice. I will do this with some Blu-rays also.

The hardest thing I have found to hear is absolute polarity. It is hard to hear because although you can hear it analytically, it is more the emotional connection that is lost. It is an overall effect more than any one specific thing. Although now I tend to listen to the spoken word. T and P and B sounds get changed up. Overall it is the leading edge dynamics that get messed up. Natural sounds are easiest to hear this with. Things like rain falling, wind blowing though leaves, rain falling. Much easier to hear over headphones or single driver speakers as mutli-driver speakers tend to mess things up. Most 12 db two ways run the tweeter out of polarity with the woofer. I rewired my one set that did this and the sound is much better. At first it took repeated back and forth to hear it. Now although it is still hard to tell, I am getting to where I can tell without any comparison.

I went into a home recording studio where my friend was recording a vocal track to mix in with the finished music mix. Anyway, while we were there, three of us were listening to some other songs. On one song I could clearly hear that one of the background singers sounded like he had some phlegm or something come up on a sustained note. This was so obvious to me, it was like it came right out and punched me. I asked the other two people if they heard it. They didn't. We played it back a few times and I pointed it out, but they still did not hear it. I said can you mute all the other tracks except that one background singer, which he could. At that point, they heard what I heard in the mix and then could hear it in the mix. Point being the 720P is probably rather subtle. I was curious as to what others hear. Most of the menu stuff is much harder to hear than the 720P.

Thanks again.
Edited by kellybob - 10/20/13 at 7:11pm
post #12575 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I suspect this is a significant part of your problem right here. This is not a valid configuration. With Sides OFF, Rears must also be OFF. The Speaker Configuration screen is not supposed to let you set up a configuration where Sides are OFF and Rears are LARGE.

However, that check in the Setup UI is not actually functioning. If you set all 7.1 LARGE, and then turn Sides OFF (which DOES automatically change Rears to OFF as well, as it is supposed to), you can then go change Rears back to LARGE and the firmware FAILS to also turn the Sides back on.

I'll post this as a bug to OPPO.

Since you've managed to get the OPPO into an invalid configuration, it doesn't surprise me that the resulting processing is confusing.
--Bob

I do not see this as a bug. My setup clearly sounds better this way. Once gain, I am using a 2-channel DAC with no decoding ability. I went through EVERY menu setting listening for differences with this setup. I did also test using the analog outs and a little with HDMI. My 2 channel DAC sounds much better than the analog outs. And this is with the analog out muting transistors removed and the DC blocking caps bypassed. My 2 channel DAC sounds better than the analog outputs even when the analog outs are getting 24 bits and the DAC is getting 16. And I can invert absolute polarity on my DAC.

I tried an HDMI audio extractor into the DAC and going from 16/48 to 24/28 really made a big difference, but the issue I had was that the extractor limited the sample rate to 48 when in 2 channel mode which I need for the downmix. So I had to switch the mode on the extractor to get higher than 48. This is another issue that hopefully I can get Oppo to address. That is, audio overrides like are currently in there for video. But that is another issue.

I spent literally weeks trying every combination of settings and using all the differnet outputs, etc. I spent probably the most time with the speaker configuration setting testing all kinds of soundtracks with different channel counts including DVD-A and SACD. Point here is I do not want to be forced back into worse sound by not having the ability to not downmix the SBL and SBR. 7.1 sounds best and exactly the way I have it set up. It was messing around here that made me think wouldn't it be better if this whole DSP was bypassed for the coaxial/optical output which it supposedly was, but is not, as we have discovered.

Charles Hansen also made some detailed posts about this issue. He said that much of this DSP is not very good sounding and on their player much of it is bypassed. I always tend to find it is the foolproofing stuff that is what gets in the way of me getting good sound.

Stereo downmix sounds slightly better with the sub turned on. Keep in mind my setup. This does make sense in that all these settings are being applied to the coax output. And the internal operation of the chip is being changed. Now I am not sure exactly what is going on. Think about this. Changing the sub from on to off is indeed changing how the chip works. Sub on probably bypasses something internally. So instead of say being set to dowmix the sub, this setting bypassed something. Say I change the SBL and SBR from large to small. Large internally bypassed any bass redirection and I can hear this internal change. Setting them to off, tells the chip to totally ignore them. I can hear all these subtle things. Point is there is a theoretical basis for me being able to hear the difference. The settings are changing the internal working of the chip or perhaps rerouting things. I can hear all these things.
post #12576 of 16402
There is no mystery here. Turning the Sub output ON (even though not connected), eliminates the need to down-mix LFE into the LF/RF Analog outputs, and thus also eliminates the need for down-mix attenuation. That's no small thing. The Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs of the 105 work the same way, automatically -- LFE is discarded.

You do realize I hope that SACD can not be played over the S/PDIF outputs.
--Bob
post #12577 of 16402
Concerning HDCD:

I got this reply, "HDCD Decoding affects the analog outputs and the digital outputs as long as they have been set to LPCM."

Now this statement does not state HDCD decoding is not applied when the digital output is set to BITSTREAM, but that is how I read it.

The manual states that HDCD decoding on decodes and off treats it like regular CD. The above makes me believe that it should not be applied when set to bitstream.

Anyway, concerning this issue, I mentioned it only in connection with the delay being applied to bitstream. My thinking was perhaps the reason delay is being applied to bitstream is because the HDCD decoding is being done by the same DSP. I do not know the internal achitecture. I do not where delays are being applied, where HDCD decoding is being done. If I had a schematic, I am sure I would have a better idea, but Oppo does not share the schematics. I am troubleshooting by listening and then trying to reverse engineer or ascertain the internal architecture.

The manual states (page 67), "Speaker Configuration applies to the multi-channel analog outputs only. All digital (bitstream and LPCM) outputs are unaffected by these settings." We now know this is incorrect. There are a bunch of incorrect statements in the manual. I went through and tested everything seeking the best sound and found a lot of these conflicts. And them sometimes got conflicting responses or ones where there were misundertandings.


I am not worried about HDCD, it appears to be working just fine.
post #12578 of 16402
That sounds like an outdated response. The Bitstream setting has no impact on whether HDCD Decoding will engage in your 103. Of course the output remains LPCM.
--Bob
post #12579 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

There is no mystery here. Turning the Sub output ON (even though not connected), eliminates the need to down-mix LFE into the LF/RF Analog outputs, and thus also eliminates the need for down-mix attenuation. That's no small thing. The Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs of the 105 work the same way, automatically -- LFE is discarded.

You do realize I hope that SACD can not be played over the S/PDIF outputs.
--Bob


Listening to a CD, 2 channel downmix, sub on sounds slightly better than sub off with no sub connected. It sounds slightly better this way on all downmix modes. Point here is it is not a level change I am hearing. It is simply the internal change in operation I am hearing.

SACD does not play over S/PDIF. I did test quite a bit with the analog outputs. And I did test the downmix modes extensively with the analog outputs.
Edited by kellybob - 10/20/13 at 8:53pm
post #12580 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

That sounds like an outdated response. The Bitstream setting has no impact on whether HDCD Decoding will engage in your 103. Of course the output remains LPCM.
--Bob

July 30, 2013 was the date of the response.

So my description would be a recent response that is outdated. I am going to look up the definition of outdated. Not sure if the response is outdated or the content of the response is outdated, or...


I am going to plug the analog board back in and see what is up with SACD and delays ... within a week or so.


Thanks again for all your troubleshooting. I know it can take quite a bit of effort. It is appreciated.

Kelly
Edited by kellybob - 10/20/13 at 8:50pm
post #12581 of 16402
Any reviews on the 103D at this stage or is it too new?
post #12582 of 16402
Thread Starter 
There is a French Review at HDFever
post #12583 of 16402
I think I figured out the SACD issue.

Delay being applied to the coaxial/optical output was my focus. I was testing all kinds of stuff and had found several conflicting operation versus manual issues. I imagine what I did was play Dark Side Of The Moon which has CD, SACD stereo, and SACD multi-channel. I think I might have only tested the stereo layer of this disc. I think it may be that for SACD stereo, the delay is not applied. I saw that delay was being applied to the FL/FR for CD, and then I played the 2-channel SACD layer and changed the FR setting to maximum and this made no change unlike with CD and then I stopped testing as this issue was not my focus. In my e-mails, I did state that I was not sure if I tested the multi-channel layer.

So is delay applied to FL/FR of a stereo SACD? I can check later if I get no verification. I will have to plug the analog board in. I don't feel like doing it now. Time to watch a movie.
post #12584 of 16402
Thread Starter 
SACD will not pass through digital coaxial or optical. If you were using digital coaxial or optical and you heard audio, then you were getting audio from the CD-Audio layer, not the DSD layers.

SACD can only be processed by the player when using analog or HDMI and only when the SACD mode (Audio Format Setup) is set to PCM. In DSD, all of the Speaker Configuration settings are ignored because the player does not have the ability to apply these settings to the DSD stream.
post #12585 of 16402
Does the Oppo force dnr on hdmi 1 or 2?
post #12586 of 16402
Thread Starter 
HDMI 1 only. HDMI 2 is clean since it is direct from the decoder.
post #12587 of 16402
Does HDMI 1 have DNR applied when you output in source direct?
post #12588 of 16402
Thread Starter 
A little, but the amount of incredibly debatable. I personally feel HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 offer the same picture quality.
post #12589 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthLou View Post

Does HDMI 1 have DNR applied when you output in source direct?

Its adaptive, appears to be based on the content itself. On BD its very minimal. On DVD its more noticeable. Under no circumstances does it leap out at you, and with some content it does seem to help.
post #12590 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

SACD will not pass through digital coaxial or optical. If you were using digital coaxial or optical and you heard audio, then you were getting audio from the CD-Audio layer, not the DSD layers.

SACD can only be processed by the player when using analog or HDMI and only when the SACD mode (Audio Format Setup) is set to PCM. In DSD, all of the Speaker Configuration settings are ignored because the player does not have the ability to apply these settings to the DSD stream.

I am aware that SACD is not passed over coaxial/optical. The main thing that stuck out in my testing was that delay was being applied to the coaxial/optical output. This was the focus of much of my testing. When I was testing SACD, it was using the analog outs. So what I think I did was put in Dark Side Of The Moon, verify that the CD layer was having delay applied and then switched to the stereo SACD layer and see if delay was being applied. I am pretty sure it was not. I think I stopped at this point and did not test the SACD multi-channel layer to see if delay was being applied.

So at this point, I am thinking that delay is not applied for stereo SACD, only for multi-channel, which makes sense. I will verify this soon if no one else does.

I did also test for SACD delay over HDMI (SACD mode PCM) and it was not being applied, but I might have only tested the stereo layer.

Not sure if it matters, but all my delay tests were with all distances set to 0 and then I would change the RF distance to 60.
post #12591 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

A little, but the amount of incredibly debatable. I personally feel HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 offer the same picture quality.

I did a bunch of testing here. I think the color on HDMI 1 is much better. The picture has slightly more depth although it is not as sharp as HDMI 2 due to the noise reduction. Which makes sense as apparently HDMI 1 takes 4:2:2 from the decoder and upsamples using bilinear. I have all the settings for HDMI 1 at default; not sure if the Qdeo is doing anything else that would improve the color. I tried sharpness at 1 on HDMI 1 and this noticeably changes the detail, but I found that when watched for a little while, it was fatiguing.

My TV in PC mode does not mess with 4:4:4 which makes a nice difference on everything - the colors have more detail. When I tested, both outputs were set to 4:4:4.

My set will accept deep color at 36 bits but does not do anything with it. I found that dither applied on HDMI 1 gave a little more depth to the image. I tested this with Monsters, Inc. Blu-ray. Not sure if dither helped HDMI 2 or not.
post #12592 of 16402
Thanks for the info.
post #12593 of 16402
Hi everybody,
Has the new firmware still the ability to reproduce iso blue ray ?
Of course i mean with the bdmv patch applied.
Thanks
post #12594 of 16402
Thread Starter 
ISO has been removed after all firmware past the 61-1219 Firmware.
post #12595 of 16402
So no word on how I get cddb or similar working so my 93 gets track info for the cd's I play?
post #12596 of 16402
Thread Starter 
Not gonna happen at this point. OPPO is primarily working on maintenance to ensure that the player stays compatible with discs released commercially. I doubt any new features will be added.
post #12597 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

ISO has been removed after all firmware past the 61-1219 Firmware.

Thanks, but i wanted to know if the bdmv_modify_1.4 applied to the movie still works.
I've great fear to lose this ability since I ripped 100 buray movie !
post #12598 of 16402
Thread Starter 
It should still work since BDMV support is still active as far as I have been told.
post #12599 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post


While I think the 103 has a very slight edge in Netflix image quality over my PS3 (only when using HDMI 2 set to Source Direct because there are too many motion artifacts on any other configuration), I've stopped using it for streaming due to its inconsistent behavior. It's annoying spending the first 5 minutes of any show watching the streaming quality bounce back and forth from SD to HD and hoping that it will settle down.

I think you've really hit the nail on the head regarding posts here on the forum that state the 103's netflix streaming is subpar. Aside from the issue of the 103 taking a bit longer to reach full highest bitrate quality (when available), most people run their player through hdmi 1 for netflix without knowing about the differences between hdmi 1 and 2. As has been reported by others here on the forum, hdmi 1 has the qdeo noise reduction processing on at all times, which produces some noticeable smearing/blurring on netflix scenes with high contrast and quick motion. It's not always obvious, but it's there. I think this smearing makes people see the quality as subpar compared to other streamers. Unfortunately, the only solution is to use Hdmi 2 to eliminate the blurring.
post #12600 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

This is an HDMI handshaking issue with 24fps playback, specifically when the player switches between 24fps and 50 or 60hz output. You should be able to eliminate it completely by switching off 1080p24 output. The length of the audio muting was significantly longer on firmware versions previous to the current official and beta releases. I'm not sure that any blu-ray player is completely free of this issue. My old Sony, which the Oppo replaced, did this as well.

Thanks KC.

I do have 1080p24 on, as you suggest. Would your observation still be true if I have it set up for HDMI to Panasonic TV for picture only, with audio on co-axial digital to a Denon amp?

And if I switch 1080p24 off, won't I be losing a benefit somewhere?!
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