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Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 479

post #14341 of 16451
Thanks SMD but the Return Arrow don't work on my Harmony One. Tried programming many times but no joy. I'll just keep fiddling with it for awhile longer.
post #14342 of 16451
If I remember correctly, I use the exit button as a return.
post #14343 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by davehale View Post

Thanks SMD but the Return Arrow don't work on my Harmony One. Tried programming many times but no joy. I'll just keep fiddling with it for awhile longer.
You can change that. Just customize buttons for the device.
post #14344 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

This is a bug in the Oppo...

If your NAS library has very many entries in the branches of the library tree, (for example my library has over 800 albums in the "Albums" tree), then the Oppo downloads all of those entries into memory before it starts displaying anything on screen. (The Oppo does not actually freeze up -- if you wait long enough, it will come back to life once it has downloaded all entries).

I don't know why the Oppo behaves this way; the UPnP specification has a mechanism that allows large lists to be downloaded one screen page at a time. And as you observe most other devices and control points do indeed load and display one page at a time.

In my opinion this bug makes the Oppo unusable as a UPnP control point if you have any appreciable amount of stuff in your library. Most users with such a situation end up using a third party control point on a PC or a tablet (e.g. personally I use JRiver Media Center).

As another data point i've shared around 3400 albums using DLNA to the Oppo. Displaying the album folders and playing the tracks on the Oppo using its own GUI is almost instantaneous.
post #14345 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

As another data point i've shared around 3400 albums using DLNA to the Oppo. Displaying the album folders and playing the tracks on the Oppo using its own GUI is almost instantaneous.

Hmm, I usually select the "All Music" (I think that's what it's called...basically all tracks from all albums) and prefer to run them in shuffle mode. With the Oppo GUI I have to wait till it has downloaded the entire index of tracks before I can change to shuffle mode since the Blue button used to do that will take me back while it's on the screen showing its indexing progress. With my appx 30,000 tracks this is long enough for my patience to run out. For this reason, I rarely use the Oppo to stream music, but use my Yamaha receiver instead. It seems to do the indexing in the background from what I can tell and it 'remembers' from one time to the next that I had set it to shuffle mode.

My DLNA server is ReadyDLNA on my ReadyNAS NAS box.
post #14346 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

That's good to know, thanks. It works so well that way. I use the app on an 8" tablet as well, but structured IR is just so easy.
Yeah, the Xantech seem to be an industry standard and I think the Buffalo's are modeled after those, same power specs, at least for the four output one.

I have a "Wired Home" IR system by Dayton audio and it wouldnt work so i had to buy the Oppo IR senser confused.gif
post #14347 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

That's good to know, thanks. It works so well that way. I use the app on an 8" tablet as well, but structured IR is just so easy.
Yeah, the Xantech seem to be an industry standard and I think the Buffalo's are modeled after those, same power specs, at least for the four output one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlst101 View Post

I have a "Wired Home" IR system by Dayton audio and it wouldnt work so i had to buy the Oppo IR senser confused.gif

Yeah, it seems to be very picky. The Buffalo IR hub didn't work either. I had a no name brand from SmartHome that does work though. It's a shame the Buffalo's don't work, there moderately priced but the best part is they have a signal led, great for trouble shooting.

I have to switch IR blocks anyway, as it turns out when you use the IR in from the back, it disables the front IR receiver. So I need to get a hub that also works with the 103 and supports an IR receiver as well, so the remote will still work. I do like the androide app, but sometimes touch screens can't replace a button.
post #14348 of 16451
I just ordered a 103D. I really bought the player for audio but it will be cool to have a great 3D player with Darbee. I really wanted the 105 for the more robust analog/audio. I was wondering if anyone has heard the two side by side. Is there an audible difference or do you need a golden ear to hear a sonic difference. I just couldn't swing the extra dollars right now. My Elite 47A and 59avi bought died this week. I tried using my Fat PS3 and just was not happy with the sound.
post #14349 of 16451
I have a BD audio question regarding the lip sync. It seems I need to have ~75ms to get the audio right, but it seems to vary disc to disc slightly. Is that normal for this player?

Thanks,
Skybolt
post #14350 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Since updating to the newest beta firmware, the Youtube app requires me to sign in every time I start it. It works fine without a sign-in, but then it doesn't have access to my subscriptions, watchlists, etc. Anyone else noticing this?

Oppo explained: "The Login information will not remain local to the player. We are discussing this with Google since it seems to be related to the HTML 5 interface change that occurred with the 67-1204 Firmware release."

Then they suggested that I change the 103 so it starts in Quick Start mode (rather than Energy Efficient). This time the Youtube app retained my login information. So this is a workaround, and it works.
post #14351 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

I have a BD audio question regarding the lip sync. It seems I need to have ~75ms to get the audio right, but it seems to vary disc to disc slightly. Is that normal for this player?

Thanks,
Skybolt

It's normal for MOVIES to exhibit variation. In some cases that goes back to the original, theatrical sync.

Test sync using content of known correctness -- i.e., a calibration disc.
--Bob
post #14352 of 16451
Has anyone using the bluraychip.dk pro mod (or even the non-pro version) upgraded to the latest official Oppo firmware and tested that the region free functionality still works?

I had problems after the July Oppo firmware update and had to reprogram the region free mod with an updated file, and it was like pulling teeth getting information from the bluraychip.dk team, so I'd rather not go through that again if this combination is not yet tested.

Thanks!
post #14353 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

As another data point i've shared around 3400 albums using DLNA to the Oppo. Displaying the album folders and playing the tracks on the Oppo using its own GUI is almost instantaneous.

Hmm. That is interesting. My experience was from many months ago, and due to the poor response times I gave up trying it and switched over to other solutions. But perhaps they fixed the issue in a recent firmware release? I will try it out again this evening and get back...
post #14354 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It's normal for MOVIES to exhibit variation. In some cases that goes back to the original, theatrical sync.

Test sync using content of known correctness -- i.e., a calibration disc.
--Bob

Thanks Bob, This player seems to be really off compared to my Samsung for the same disc.
What Cal disc would you recomend? I have Spears, Wow and the AVS 709, but I haven't noticed any lip sync cal's on them?

Thanks,
Skybolt
post #14355 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Thanks Bob, This player seems to be really off compared to my Samsung for the same disc.
What Cal disc would you recomend? I have Spears, Wow and the AVS 709, but I haven't noticed any lip sync cal's on them?

Thanks,
Skybolt

Spears and Music 2nd Edition. You can get it off the OPPO site.
post #14356 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo_Reloaded View Post

Has anyone using the bluraychip.dk pro mod (or even the non-pro version) upgraded to the latest official Oppo firmware and tested that the region free functionality still works?

I had problems after the July Oppo firmware update and had to reprogram the region free mod with an updated file, and it was like pulling teeth getting information from the bluraychip.dk team, so I'd rather not go through that again if this combination is not yet tested.

Thanks!
The non-pro version works all right with the latest firmware, including the latest beta. I have found with these chips that you need to be sure that you do the firmware update while in your native region setting with the chipset and that you need to do a factory reset on the Oppo before using it. It also seems to require a power cycle or two but I am not positive about this. With the non-pro chip it is very important to get the sequence of key strokes on the Oppo remoted completed within a fairly narrow time window. It often takes me two or three tries to get a region change made.
post #14357 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

What Cal disc would you recomend? I have Spears, Wow and the AVS 709, but I haven't noticed any lip sync cal's on them?

There's a sync test on the Disney WOW (blu-ray) disk
post #14358 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

There's a sync test on the Disney WOW (blu-ray) disk

Yeah, Thanks. I was just reading Ralf's AVS review of that disk and caught that. I guess that what I'll be doing tonight!
post #14359 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It's normal for MOVIES to exhibit variation. In some cases that goes back to the original, theatrical sync.

Test sync using content of known correctness -- i.e., a calibration disc.
--Bob

Thanks Bob, This player seems to be really off compared to my Samsung for the same disc.
What Cal disc would you recomend? I have Spears, Wow and the AVS 709, but I haven't noticed any lip sync cal's on them?

Thanks,
Skybolt

Spears & Munsil v2, and Disney's "WOW World of Wonder", Blu-ray, both have good A/V sync test charts.
--Bob
post #14360 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Test sync using content of known correctness -- i.e., a calibration disc.
--Bob

I'm planning to test this again for verification of consistent results before I contact Oppo to ask some questions about it, but in measuring the A/V synchronization using the test patterns on the Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark 2nd Edition Blu-ray Disc I got approximately 90ms of variation with the various combinations of which selections were made as far as sound format (DTS-HD MA or DD True HD), 24p or 60p, and bitstream or LPCM output. While many of these cannot be isolated to a particular device in my system, the ones that I think do indicate isolation to a particular device are the approximately 50ms difference between DTS-HD MA and DD True HD when LPCM output is selected with 24p, and the approximately 20ms difference between the same when 3/2 pulldown 60p version of the pattern is selected.

I also recently tested synchronization on my AppleTV, using various A/V synchronization test patterns from both my own computer and from YouTube videos of various field and frame rates, and I expected some variance between those. They were all within approximately 100ms of each other, so not that different than the variances I'm getting from the BDP-103. From my research on the subject, I've found there is a variance range of approximately 120ms to 170ms that is not detectible as being out of synchronization by human perception. So if those variances of 90 to 100ms for each of these devices can be contained within that undetectability range, then those variances should be not be perceived as being out of synchronization. However I believe this undetectability range of human perception also makes it difficult to accurately determine a delay setting that will contain the range of actual A/V synchronization variances within that undetectability range of human perception.

I would compare it to a bunch of people standing on the opposite side of a wall of a given length from me. If I move my position left or right to the correct position relative to the wall then I won't see any of the people as long as they aren't too spread out. If I'm too far left or right of the correct position then I'll notice the people beyond one end of the wall or the other. The A/V synchronization errors that we detect are like the people that are visible beyond the end of the wall. Trying to set an audio delay by using a test pattern, without any other tools, is like trying to take pick one random person out of that group behind the wall and hoping because I found a position where that person is not visible to me beyond either end of the wall, that no one else in the group will be visible to me beyond the ends of the wall either. This is my current understanding of it based on what I've read and what I know right now.

I found it quite frustrating when I initially attempted to set an audio delay based on simply viewing and hearing the test patterns from the calibration disc. I found a range of settings that looked right, and I kept second guessing any setting that I settled upon. If I focused my attention on the bar the sound was supposed to be synchronized with it looked correct, but in many cases if I shifted my attention for long enough to an adjacent bar it also appeared to be synchronized. That is why I decided to try to find some tool for better assessing it, and why I took some time to research the subject.
post #14361 of 16451
^

You say that 170 ms is not noticeable within human perception. Well I certainly can detect 50 ms without trouble and anything over 100 ms drives me nuts...
post #14362 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

^

You say that 170 ms is not noticeable within human perception. Well I certainly can detect 50 ms without trouble and anything over 100 ms drives me nuts...

I'm saying that my current understanding is that there is a range of variance of approximately 120 to 170 ms that is not perceptible. That range would be from audio being advanced ahead of video 22ms to 45ms to audio being delayed behind video 96ms to 125ms. A difference between audio and video of 170ms either way would be well outside this range, and therefore would be detectable.

This is one of my sources for this information: Audio/Video Synchronization Standards and Solutions A Status Report
Edited by KC-Technerd - 1/16/14 at 10:17am
post #14363 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

From my research on the subject, I've found there is a variance range of approximately 120ms to 170ms that is not detectible as being out of synchronization by human perception. So if those variances of 90 to 100ms for each of these devices can be contained within that undetectability range, then those variances should be not be perceived as being out of synchronization.

I have seen one study that claims detectability is not all there is to it - that you are still affected by being emotionally uninterested in the person speaking if the audio is off even if you can't detect it. That study is here: http://www.pixelinstruments.tv/pdf/Articles/Effects%20of%20Audio-Video%20Asynchrony.PDF

Here's an excerpt from the results:
Quote:
1. When audio precedes video by 5 video fields, viewers evaluate people on television
more negatively (e.g. less interesting, more unpleasant, less influential, more agitated,
less successful). This difference is not large, but it is statistically significant. (Figures 1
and 2)
...
3. Viewers can accurately tell when a television segment is in perfect synch, and when it
is 5 fields out of synch. Viewers cannot accurately tell the same segments are 2.5 fields
out of synch. (Figure 4)
4. Even though detection is low when asynchrony is moderate (2.5 fields), viewer
evaluations are still affected.

That explains the guy in his basement posting YouTube videos about how he hates every movie ever. He probably just has his sync off.

On another note, I have used sync patterns and definitely can not tell the difference when the sync is on or +- 10 ms adjustment by my receiver. The way I've done it is to go under until I detect it, and then go over until I detect it, and use the middle. However, from the study you posted it sounds like it should be closer to the audio delayed number.

And the delay with different sources is interesting. You'd need to sync to one that's in the middle of the range - if someone uses a source near the end of the spectrum to do the actual sync, then sources near the other end will be more off. I have noticed lip sync problems on a couple of high-profile Blu-rays on my 103, but haven't yet gone to the trouble to investigate if it is a disc issue. So here's my question to anyone who has calibrated sync and doesn't have errors: what sound format source did you use and what output settings on the Oppo were used?
post #14364 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhw59 View Post

Thank you Bill and Bob. I am getting a new router tomorrow so before I spend any more of our time with this issue, I will wait and get the new one set up.

new router solved the access problem. Now I have to figure out how to use the media server. Any FAQs on this anywhere?
post #14365 of 16451
^^ Yes I have seen some info mentioning the effect of negative emotional perception preceding the actual detectability of a synchronization error. Thanks for posting the link to the study. Based on when that was done, I'm assuming 59.94 fields per second when they are referring to video fields. Also assuming I've done the math right, 5 fields would be 16.7ms. Human perception is not very forgiving of audio preceding visual information. I think audio delayed behind the image is perceived more favorably because that is a natural occurrence. Audio takes longer to travel a given distance than light, so the farther we are from what we are seeing and listening to, the greater the amount the sound is delayed behind the image. So I agree that erring toward the side of delay would be favorable. What I did was take the range of different results I got and came up with a delay number that would center them as closely as possible inside the range of undetectability. The number I came up with for that on the BDP-103 was 110ms. On the Apple TV it was 100ms.

I have one particular high profile Blu-ray title where the extras were obviously out of sync with the audio preceding the video when I was playing it on my old system (Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player and pre-HDMI audio receiver). I didn't notice sync errors on the main programs on the discs or on any other discs, so I thought it must be an authoring error. In fact it was reported as such on a high profile Blu-ray review website, which then later said that it wasn't a disc problem but the result of users having too much video processing being applied. Simply turn off the video processing and the issue was supposed to be fixed. I didn't have any defeatable video processing turned on to begin with, so I was never able to correct this, and continued to be believe it was a problem with the discs. After getting the Oppo and a new AVR, both of which gave me audio delay options which I didn't have before, and I initially arrived at an audio delay setting of 85ms that I could no longer detect anything out of sync on these discs. I'm not detecting anything out of sync on any of the discs I've watched since updating the delay for the Oppo to 110ms, but I haven't watched many yet. I just set the audio delay for my AppleTV last night so I've barely scratched the surface on evaluating the results on it. I'm not certain this is the perfect solution, and I consider it an experiment at this point. I'm not recommending the delays I came up with for anyone else. Even if someone else had the same TV and AVR that I have, there are many variables that could result in significantly different audio or video delays.
post #14366 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

Hmm. That is interesting. My experience was from many months ago, and due to the poor response times I gave up trying it and switched over to other solutions. But perhaps they fixed the issue in a recent firmware release? I will try it out again this evening and get back...

Yes, I tried it just now, and I can confirm that the Oppo UI now loads a big library very quickly (as it should). Therefore, my only recommendation to the OP is to try updating your firmware.
post #14367 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

^

You say that 170 ms is not noticeable within human perception. Well I certainly can detect 50 ms without trouble and anything over 100 ms drives me nuts...

I am with you, even my wife noticed the 60ms differance that the 103 is now set to.
post #14368 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

On another note, I have used sync patterns and definitely can not tell the difference when the sync is on or +- 10 ms adjustment by my receiver.

I fear that it is a bit like wine tasting (or indeed any other hobby that is bad for you or your wallet) -- the more you do it the better you get at detecting the difference, and so the less willing you become to accept anything second rate.
post #14369 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

I am with you, even my wife noticed the 60ms differance that the 103 is now set to.

You might notice even a 5ms difference in delay setting. 5ms might be enough to move a mis-synchronization that is just outside the undetectable range to just inside the undetectable range, just as moving an inch or two left or right in relation to that wall I referred to earlier might make the difference between me seeing someone's elbow beyond one end of the wall, and me not being able to see that there is anyone on the other side of the wall. Me being able to visually detect anyone on the other side of the wall is analogous to being able to detect the mis-synchronization of audio and video.
post #14370 of 16451
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

I fear that it is a bit like wine tasting (or indeed any other hobby that is bad for you or your wallet) -- the more you do it the better you get at detecting the difference, and so the less willing you become to accept anything second rate.

In order to be able to detect a 10ms difference, your eyes would also have to be able to see flicker on a 100Hz CRT. And as far as I know, very few, if any, people are able to do that or ever become able to do that. On a 60 fps source, each frame is 16.7 ms long. That means if you could detect 10ms difference, you would be able to tell if the sound started at the beginning of the frame or in the middle of the frame. I don't know anyone who can do that.
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