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Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 480

post #14371 of 16449
^ I've assumed the moment the frame begins to display as the point of synchronization in all my measurements. However I've not seen anything that specifically states if that is the correct point for synchronization. I have however considered that on CRT and Plasma displays the frame is only displayed for an instant at the beginning of the frame interval, as compared to LCDs or LCOS that may display the frame for the entire frame interval, or may dim it or turn it on and off during the frame interval (dark or black frame insertion).
post #14372 of 16449
OK, the WOW disc has an AV sync test that looks like it should be great, it beeps and flashes a yellow cross pattern inside of a timeing grid. No matter what I set the audio timming to, it made no differance. I went to the extremes -100 and +200 ms. I didn't really see adifferance.

Has anyone used this disc to cal there lip sync? I must be doing something wrong and I can't figure out what ...

Thanks,
Skybolt
post #14373 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

... From my research on the subject, I've found there is a variance range of approximately 120ms to 170ms that is not detectible as being out of synchronization by human perception. So if those variances of 90 to 100ms for each of these devices can be contained within that undetectability range, then those variances should be not be perceived as being out of synchronization.

So you are saying that this is the inherant delay, and the delay that we adjust is just the amount of time we move the window?
Quote:
I found it quite frustrating when I initially attempted to set an audio delay based on simply viewing and hearing the test patterns from the calibration disc. I found a range of settings that looked right, and I kept second guessing any setting that I settled upon. If I focused my attention on the bar the sound was supposed to be synchronized with it looked correct, but in many cases if I shifted my attention for long enough to an adjacent bar it also appeared to be synchronized. That is why I decided to try to find some tool for better assessing it, and why I took some time to research the subject.

Man am I with you on that one. I experienced the same exact thing when trying to set it this evening. What did you end up doing to cal your player? Just guessing can be just as frustrating depending on the disc you choose.
post #14374 of 16449
Anyone here using a BDP-103 with an Anthem 50v? Any problems with sending either video or audio thru the Anthem? I would be sending audio thru the Anthem and video directly to a Samsung 65F9000 UHD 4k display. The only other player I am looking at is the Sony BDP-790. I am currently using a Sony BDP5000ES.
post #14375 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

In order to be able to detect a 10ms difference, your eyes would also have to be able to see flicker on a 100Hz CRT.

Ahem. With due respect I don't think that this is a scientifically justifiable claim. Admittedly I am not a great expert in human cognition, but I have read a few books about this fascinating subject. (I can recommend Professor Stephen Pinker's book "How the Mind Works" as a great starting point).

It is pretty evident that the human brain (or any animal's brain for that matter) has a variety of different modules (e.g. for vision, hearing, motor control, basic operation, higher cognition, language, etc.), a variety of sensors (eyes, balance, ears, limbs positioning feedback, etc.) and a variety of connection pathways (retina, nerves, visual cortex, reflex control systems, higher cognition etc.). And yes we all know (from personal experience indeed) that the human visual cognitive system (consisting of sensors, modules, processing algorithms, recognition algorithms, and higher cognition) does indeed have a brilliant capability of interpolating partial images (snapshots) both spatially and in time, in order to create a smooth visual impression. So I don't at all dispute the brilliant capability of the mind to watch Tv.

BUT, the human visual cognitive system is a totally separate and totally different cognitive system from the human auditory cognitive system. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is shared between these two systems, until the final stage where the outputs of the two systems rise to the higher cognitive levels of the mind. Therefore the fact that the lower levels of the visual cognitive system have an amazing capability to interpolate images from TV, tells you absolutely nothing about the temporal resolution of the auditory system. And it tells you absolutely nothing about the capability of the higher cognitive systems to detect synchronisation (or lack thereof) between sights and sounds.

The brain's sights and sounds synchronisation module works on the reference case that for a nearby event, the sight and the sound arrive at the eyes and the ears at the same time. And as the distance between event and observer increases, the sound will arrive at the ears after the sight. And the brain is very finely tuned to using a difference in arrival time between sight and sound as a vital clue in perceiving the distance from an event.

But the brain also has other mechanisms for perceiving distance from an event, namely the triangulation of stereo vision, and the triangulation of stereo hearing. Now if these three distance perceptor systems start giving the higher cognitive system mixed messages about your distance from an event, then you will feel (in your gut) that something is wrong, and the worse the mixed messages are, the worse the feeling will become until you eventually start to feel quite nauseous.

In nature, the sound of an event always arrives after the sight. So the brain allows a certain lassitude concerning synchronisation errors where the sound arrives later. But in nature the sound never, NEVER, arrives before the sight. So in this case, if the brain gets such signals, it knows that something definitely un-natural is going on.

Now unfortunately, the exact case we are talking about, is just the case where the sight arrives after the sound. As far as the brain is concerned that is a totally unexpected and un-natural experience. In the natural world, unexpected events are much more than averagely dangerous, (since you have neither inbuilt reflexes avoid them, nor do you have learned responses to handle them). In short unexpected events, are "bad stuff", and the mind does not like it at all. The mind is seriously going to notice this kind stuff. Your whole life may depend on your mind noticing this kind of stuff...

I could go on further, but I won't ...
post #14376 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

I could go on further, but I won't ...

Thank you.
post #14377 of 16449
Is there a way to play movies from a designated hard drive through the Oppo? I have a 93 & a 103, and I've moved all my old DVD's to my hard drive. However, it's taking up alot of rom on my HD (75 GB or so, so I can play them through Apple TV and iTunes. I'd rather just have them on their own drive connected to the Oppo if possible.

Can this be done?
post #14378 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

With due respect I don't think that this is a scientifically justifiable claim.
It is just math. To differentiate two visual events 10ms apart, you would have to be capable of seeing 100 fps.

But, there is plenty of research on how short of events humans can see, and 85 fps seems to be the upper limit covering 99.9% of the population.

Let me explain this a different way: The wikipedia article on Frame Rate states (with citations): "such as a 10 ms green flash of light immediately followed by a 10 ms red flash of light perceived as a single yellow flash of light."

In other words, if you had an audio signal you were trying to tell if it came on the red frame or the green frame, you would not be able to because all you would see is a single yellow frame.
Quote:
the exact case we are talking about, is just the case where the sight arrives after the sound

That is not what I am talking about. All I am saying is that I can not, and I don't believe anyone else can either, detect the different between the sound being 10ms after the picture and 20ms after the picture. So my method for syncing has been to take the minimum delay I can detect and the maximum delay I can detect, and average the two.
post #14379 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

It is just math. To differentiate two visual events 10ms apart, you would have to be capable of seeing 100 fps.

It is not about differentiating two visual effects. One effect comes through the eyes, the other through the ears. So it is nothing to do with seeing at 100fps. Period.
post #14380 of 16449
This discussion is fascinating for some of us. Why not take it to an appropriate forum? smile.gif
post #14381 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Why not take it to an appropriate forum? smile.gif
Say Hallelujah!! eek.gif
post #14382 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejs71 View Post

Is there a way to play movies from a designated hard drive through the Oppo? I have a 93 & a 103, and I've moved all my old DVD's to my hard drive. However, it's taking up alot of rom on my HD (75 GB or so, so I can play them through Apple TV and iTunes. I'd rather just have them on their own drive connected to the Oppo if possible.

Can this be done?

Sure. That's what the USB ports are for.

What format are your files in?

-Bill
post #14383 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Sure. That's what the USB ports are for.

What format are your files in?

-Bill
The movies are all converted for iTunes (Apple TV), so they are all m4v.
post #14384 of 16449
post #14385 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejs71 View Post

The movies are all converted for iTunes (Apple TV), so they are all m4v.

Do you know the audio and video codecs inside the m4v container? There is a free utility "mediainfo" that will display this info.

-Bill
post #14386 of 16449
Looking at a used 103 and wanted to know if Oppo will honor the two year warranty as long as I have the receipt. I just looked on their website and if I am reading right, it is non-transferable.
post #14387 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gov View Post

Looking at a used 103 and wanted to know if Oppo will honor the two year warranty as long as I have the receipt. I just looked on their website and if I am reading right, it is non-transferable.
I think they will, but why not contact them?
post #14388 of 16449
^^^^ I will...thanx
post #14389 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

This discussion is fascinating for some of us. Why not take it to an appropriate forum? smile.gif

I think it is appropriate .
post #14390 of 16449
Just for JVC x35 projector, for movie file in hard disk play mkv iso and BDMV, which one has better picture quality?

Oppo 103
Popcorn A400

Currently i use WD TV live Streaming Player.

Many thanks!
post #14391 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by fightclub View Post

Just for JVC x35 projector, for movie file in hard disk play mkv iso and BDMV, which one has better picture quality?

Oppo 103
Popcorn A400

Currently i use WD TV live Streaming Player.

Many thanks!

The answer is the same no matter how many times you ask this. The OPPO does not support ISO or BDMV.

-Bill
post #14392 of 16449
All,

I just got the OPP DBP 103! Its really nice..and I need some help in figuring my connection. I currently have Onkyo 818 that is handling all my devices like PS3, Xbox, Cable, Apple TV. My current connection is

Apple TV, XBox, PS3,... => Onkyo 818 ==> TV (HDMI 1) which is straight forward and works as expected.

Now, with Oppo in the chain I would like to use the dual hdmi so that I can make use of the video processing capability for ALL my devices and onkyo for sound. For that I tired the following setup

1. Apple TV, XBox, PS3,... => Onkyo 818 ==> Oppo (HDMI IN) => HDMI 1 OUT => TV (HDMI 1) AND OPPO HDMI 2 OUT => Onkyo 818 — This is causing the issue

I took the HDMI 2 OUT from Oppo and connected it back to an HDMI port in the receiver so that I thought when I use OPPO for watching bluray movies or streaming I can make use of its dual split. But it doest seem to work frown.gif. When I try to connect the HDMI 2 OUT back from OPPO to the receiver the receiver reports as "No Signal" even though that is not selected as the source mad.gif

How can I make this work? Basically use the video processing of oppo for all my devices and at same time when using oppo make use of its dual split?

2. OR,, I am also thinking of not using the onkyo for switching but just run all devices through a seperate HDMI switch into Oppo’s HDMI IN (REAR) and then connect HDMI 2 from oppo to AVR and HDMI 1 from oppo to TV. That way only audio is passed to Onkyo and switching is done externally.

I would like for #1 to work. Is that not possible or am I missing something in the #1 setup?

Thanks for your inputs!

Anand
post #14393 of 16449
HDMI does not allow "loops". You cannot do receiver -> player -> receiver.

-Bill
post #14394 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

So you are saying that this is the inherant delay, and the delay that we adjust is just the amount of time we move the window?

I'm not sure that the term "inherent" really applies to any of the delays involved. The source disc or or other source material may have it's own A/V mis-synchornization and I'm not addressing that at all since I know of no practical way to measure or determine that independently. Some delay in the video is caused by the video processing of the television. What I am saying is that based on my measurements that making different settings (other than the audio delay setting) and using different audio formats on the Oppo BDP-103 result in different A/V synchronization on the same test pattern. Some of those differences are likely to be the result of different delays in audio processing in my AVR. Some may be the results of different video delay in my TV when playing 60p vs 24p. The range of those different results are all within 90ms of each other. Adjusting the audio delay is moving that entire range together in relation to the video. What I tried to accomplish was to use an audio delay setting that moved that entire range so that it fits within the range where A/V mis-synchronization is not supposed to be perceptible (which is about 120 to 170 ms wide). Hopefully then no matter if Dolby Digital or DTS, and regardless of which audio settings I'm using on the BDP-103 the resulting audio will not be mis-timed with video enough to be perceptible. The alternative would be to have a list of the results and use those to set the delay differently each time a different audio format and/or anytime different audio settings are selected. That would be more accurate, but less convenient. I'm not sure this answers your question.

One thing I neglected to mention before that may have a significant effect on my results is that I am using the Split A/V function on my Oppo BDP-103 with HDMI 1 directly to my TV display and HDMI 2 to my AVR. I may do some more testing with HDMI 2 only output for comparison since my setup allows that without having to move cables. Testing HDMI 1 independently would be a more difficult proposition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

What did you end up doing to cal your player?

I used an iPhone/iPad app called "Catchin' Sync" to get measurements of the A/V synchronization. It isn't a perfect solution for measurement and is limited by the frame rate of the iPhone/iPad camera. I take multiple (usually 3) measurements and some educated guessing based interpolation methods in an attempt to get more accurate results. I also have compared results from my iPhone and my iPad for additional verification that I'm getting accurate measurements.
post #14395 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

The answer is the same no matter how many times you ask this. The OPPO does not support ISO or BDMV.

-Bill

if only plays MKV file, popcorn A400 and oppo 103 are of the same quality?? Thank you!
post #14396 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by anand_raman View Post

All,

I just got the OPP DBP 103! Its really nice..and I need some help in figuring my connection. I currently have Onkyo 818 that is handling all my devices like PS3, Xbox, Cable, Apple TV. My current connection is

Apple TV, XBox, PS3,... => Onkyo 818 ==> TV (HDMI 1) which is straight forward and works as expected.

Now, with Oppo in the chain I would like to use the dual hdmi so that I can make use of the video processing capability for ALL my devices and onkyo for sound. For that I tired the following setup

1. Apple TV, XBox, PS3,... => Onkyo 818 ==> Oppo (HDMI IN) => HDMI 1 OUT => TV (HDMI 1) AND OPPO HDMI 2 OUT => Onkyo 818 — This is causing the issue

I took the HDMI 2 OUT from Oppo and connected it back to an HDMI port in the receiver so that I thought when I use OPPO for watching bluray movies or streaming I can make use of its dual split. But it doest seem to work frown.gif. When I try to connect the HDMI 2 OUT back from OPPO to the receiver the receiver reports as "No Signal" even though that is not selected as the source mad.gif

How can I make this work? Basically use the video processing of oppo for all my devices and at same time when using oppo make use of its dual split?

2. OR,, I am also thinking of not using the onkyo for switching but just run all devices through a seperate HDMI switch into Oppo’s HDMI IN (REAR) and then connect HDMI 2 from oppo to AVR and HDMI 1 from oppo to TV. That way only audio is passed to Onkyo and switching is done externally.

I would like for #1 to work. Is that not possible or am I missing something in the #1 setup?

Thanks for your inputs!

Anand

As Bill said your 1st scenario won't work due to looping issues.
Your 2nd scenario would work fine, or another suggestion is to not worry about the gaming stuff through the player, it probably won't make much difference, so...
Possibly put the AppleTV into the rear hdmi input of the 103, then run the hdmi-1 output from the 103 to the Onkyo.
Then run the 2 gaming consoles to the Onkyo as well, then output all 3 from the Onkyo to your TV.
(why use an external switch if you don't need it, and possibly also introduce addition unneeded handshakes and potential incompatibility)
post #14397 of 16449
Sorry if this has been asked before
Does the Oppo 103 deliver better picture and sound with movies than the Oppo 93?
I don't need streaming services or analogue audio
post #14398 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake51 View Post

Sorry if this has been asked before
Does the Oppo 103 deliver better picture and sound with movies than the Oppo 93?
I don't need streaming services or analogue audio

No, they will be very similar. The -103D uses Darbee processing which gives a different look. Same audio.

-Bill
post #14399 of 16449
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

HDMI does not allow "loops". You cannot do receiver -> player -> receiver.

-Bill

Thanks for the info. I might have to restore to #2 likely then.
post #14400 of 16449
wmcclain: Thanks for your reply
I can buy a used region-free Oppo 93 for half the price of a new Oppo 103
So I should go for it?
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