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Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 148

post #4411 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Tucker View Post

all front speakers set to LARGE.
eek.gif What speakers are you using? It's pretty uncommon for large to be the correct setting for the front left and right, but exceedingly rare for it to be correct for the center speaker. Don't be afraid to let bass management send some of the deep bass to your subwoofer - that's what you bought the subwoofer for.
post #4412 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

eek.gif What speakers are you using? It's pretty uncommon for large to be the correct setting for the front left and right, but exceedingly rare for it to be correct for the center speaker. Don't be afraid to let bass management send some of the deep bass to your subwoofer - that's what you bought the subwoofer for.

Definitive Technology. Fronts are BP7000sc and the center is CLR 3000. All of them have built-in powered subs.
post #4413 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Selecting Stereo down mix changes the Sub to OFF by default, but you can change that back to ON if you want a 2.1 configuration. When playing Stereo content the Sub WILL remain silent unless LF/RF are also set to Small since of course there is no LFE channel in stereo content. "Large" means no bass steering.

For multi-channel content and a 5.1 or 7.1 down mix, if bass steered from the Small Center and Surrounds is not adequate then there are two likely setup problems. First the Sub needs +15dB boost external to the player to match the other RCA outputs. Second, your choice of Crossover frequency may not be a good match for the actual output of your speakers/sub and for your listening room's bass response characteristics.

I suspect the Sub boost (volume setting in the sub itself) is the problem since you are also reporting week bass when you set LF/RF Small.

Another common problem is that your Sub's Phase needs to be adjusted to avoid cancellation vs the main speakers through the Crossover range of frequencies.

Start by checking Sub boost using a calibration disc. I think you may find the problem you are hearing is truly just a basic setup issue like this rather than limitations of the setup choices in the OPPO.

ETA: There is another very common problem to check as well. Be sure you have the INTERNAL crossover in the Sub disabled. Since the OPPO is doing the bass management for you, you don't also want the Sub reducing its own output. If you can't disable/bypass the internal Crossover in the sub, then crank it up to the highest possible frequency to get it out of the way as much as possible.
--Bob

Thanks for your considered response Bob. I'll try your suggestions, but I doubt that they will result in full bass from my full range LR speakers AND full bass from my sub (ie.no removing bass from the LR and full bass from the sub).
post #4414 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

This would probably be a good time to repeat this:

"Large" and "Small" in the Speaker Configuration setup HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PHYSICAL SIZE OF YOUR SPEAKERS.

"Large" and "Small" in this context are simply standard, home theater jargon for whether you want bass steering (Crossover processing) disabled for a given speaker (LARGE) or enabled for a given speaker (SMALL).

It is quite common for people with huge, expensive, "full range" speakers to set them to Small so that Crossover processing will still happen -- steering the lowest bass frequencies from them to the Subwoofer instead so that the Sub can help support their bass output, particularly for the loudest bass. Even "full range" speakers frequently have problems reproducing the lowest frequencies AT VOLUME, and so support from a Sub is typically a good thing.

And if you don't have a Subwoofer, it is also perfectly reasonable to set even bookshelf speakers to Large despite their small physical size.

NOTE: If Sub is OFF and LF/RF are Large then other speakers set to Small will steer bass into LF/RF -- much as would happen with a Sub if you had one.



The Analog Subwoofer output of the 103 needs +10dB boost external to the player if ALL speakers are set to Large (or if you are playing an SACD with DSD-direct-to-Analog Conversion in effect). This is the standard +10dB boost used for LFE content.

The Analog Subwoofer output of the 103 needs +15dB boost external to the player if ANY speakers are set to Small (and you are not doing SACD DSD playback). The extra +5dB provides the necessary headroom in the Sub output signal to allow for the steered bass (Crossover processing) to be mixed in.

This boost is what's needed for the Sub volume to match the volume of the other RCA output jacks.

If you are connecting directly to your Sub's line level input, this boost is accomplished using the Volume knob on the Sub. If you are running the Analog Subwoofer signal through a multi-channel pre-amp or AVR on the way to the Sub, the pre-amp or AVR is most likely already providing the "standard" +10B boost on that signal path by default. Some will even let you select +15dB of boost. This reduces the amount of boost you need to add using the Volume knob on the Sub itself.



ETA: And just in case anyone missed this point, the Speaker Configuration settings in the 103 only apply to the multi-channel ANALOG output jacks. If you are using digital audio -- as for example HDMI audio -- then the settings to do this sort of stuff will actually be in your HDMI-capable AVR. Speaker Configuration settings made in the 103 do not alter HDMI audio output.
--Bob

Bob,

I fully understand how Oppo programmed the 103, but you are not grasping what I want. Apparently you share Oppo's view that the "correct" / only approach is for a hard crossover and that it is "incorrect" to supplement the bass of a full range speaker with bass from a sub-woofer. I try not use words like correct and incorrect and absolutes such as this or that. If you want your speakers to work that way, I am totally OK with that God bless you. Please respect that I don't want to operate my system that way -- that doesn't make me incorrect. You are not incorrect for wanting it your way and I am not incorrect for wanting it my way. However, Oppo is incorrect for not making the 103 flexible enough for us to both have what we want. It doesn't add any hardware cost -- it's just firmware. We are BOTH the customer after all.
post #4415 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

I'm thinking instead of Large and Small the industry should settle on ExtraLarge = Bass steering On and Gigantic = Bass steering Off.
Heed what Bob says. Unless you have a really puny sub it will almost always out perform your Mains no matter how "Large" they are.

My sub is a bit small, so I want the extra air movement that my LR speakers are capable of. Oppo should let ME make that decision, not make it for me.
post #4416 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post

Call me crazy, but I think what you listed is exactly the behavior I'd expect. While I think it's awesome that Oppo has made a great Blu-ray player that can also function as a basic preamp, I hope they don't spend a lot of firmware development time adding edge-case settings to enhance the preamp functionality when there is better stuff on which to focus.

Thirdkind,

That's a selfish view. The whole reason I bought the Oppo is that it's also a preamp. No preamp, no sale. I am happy for you that you think Oppo programmed it as YOU would "expect," but it's not what I expectede and it's not what I had with my previous AV equipment. I am not asking for anything unreasonable here (other vendors have it), just a bit of coding. Apparently you don't use it as a preamp, so you don't care, but some of us do. Show some empathy.
post #4417 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post


Do not be afraid to use "Small". All that Small means is that you WANT bass steered to the Subwoofer from that speaker channel.
--Bob

And apparently Large means turn the subwoofer off.
post #4418 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Yes, except that live TV program almost certainly HAS NO AUDIO in the .1 channel. The've got all the bass in the main speaker channels. It's really 5.0 content in 5.1 channels.
--Bob

Right. Music has no LFE (stereo or MC) and bass is in all the channels. So let me have the bass where I want it .
post #4419 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Tucker View Post

Okay, just to make sure I wasn't going crazy I checked the oppo audio processing menu. Good news is I actually had the sub set to OFF tongue.gif I guess when I did the last firmware update I didn't reset the sub properly. So, now I have sound coming form the Sub via 7.1 and all front speakers set to LARGE. I figured it was supposed to work that way. wink.gif

Scott,

I noticed when I was playing around with the settings that when I selected large speaker in stereo, the Oppo turned the sub off automatically. When I changed the settings, the sub remained off. Wasted a bit of time trying to figure out what was happening
post #4420 of 16402
OK you seem pretty upset that Oppo doesn't support this it is after a BD player first not a AVR and AFAIK not all AVRs even support what you want to do. I disagree with what you want to do but realize many want to have double bass and it has been debated here on AVS before. I have powered woofers in my mains and I still set them to small at 60hz but I can't convince you not to try double bass. So here is what you do. Get two "Y" splitters and put them on the back of the R&L outputs. Run one line to the speaker and the other to the sub. You will have to recombine things at the sub but its doable. You will have to be mindful of your levels and I'm not sure what if any effect the impedance load will have on the Oppo. I think Bob already mentioned but you really need to make sure your sub is in phase with your mains. I'd also suggest you ask Oppo about getting it added they have a good record of listening to their customers.
post #4421 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

Scott,

I noticed when I was playing around with the settings that when I selected large speaker in stereo, the Oppo turned the sub off automatically. When I changed the settings, the sub remained off. Wasted a bit of time trying to figure out what was happening

Are you only running 2 main speakers and a sub?
post #4422 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

Scott,

I noticed when I was playing around with the settings that when I selected large speaker in stereo, the Oppo turned the sub off automatically. When I changed the settings, the sub remained off. Wasted a bit of time trying to figure out what was happening

I think you will find many AVR and processors do the same thing.
post #4423 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

Thanks for your considered response Bob. I'll try your suggestions, but I doubt that they will result in full bass from my full range LR speakers AND full bass from my sub (ie.no removing bass from the LR and full bass from the sub).

You are quite correct. If you want to double the bass that was engineered into the content by the folks who designed the mix -- i.e., have it play at full volume in your speakers AND ALSO play at full volume in your Sub -- the OPPO won't be able to set that up for you. That sort of configuration -- sometimes called "super bass" or "double bass" -- is certainly available in some sound processors, but there is no such option in the OPPO.

I would just point out that feeling you NEED to double the bass in that fashion almost always points to a problem in the Subwoofer setup. Either your Sub is suffering Phase cancellation against the mains, or you have room response issues for bass (which may be addressed by repositioning the Sub), or you have not yet made a good choice of Crossover frequency to match the capabilities of your speakers and the bass response of your room.

There's a certain amount of bass energy authored into each channel. If your speakers are truly "full range" then they are ALREADY reproducing that. If you now also have the Subwoofer play that same bass content then you have just screwed up the balance of bass frequencies compared to the other frequencies. Think of cranking up the Bass Tone control on a sound processor.

Adjusting the sound for personal preference is of course each listener's privilege. But it ought to START from knowing your system is reproducing calibrated levels -- not "double bass".

In any event, the OPPO does not provide Tone controls, or Room EQ controls, or this type of "double bass" setup. For that sort of "personal preference" flexibility you really will need to use a real sound processor.



But if your problem is ACTUALLY that you don't think your main speakers are capable of reproducing all the bass INTENDED to be in the mix, then that's where you need a proper Crossover (not "double bass") and some quality time with calibration discs to help sort out Sub positioning and Sub Phase.

The Crossover in the OPPO is not a hard cutoff. It rolls in over about an octave (factor of 2) in frequencies. So if you have an 80Hz Crossover set, then the main speakers and the Sub *SHARE* the load of producing bass in the range of roughly 40-80Hz. Below roughly 40Hz the Sub gets all the (low-end) bass and above roughly 80Hz the mains get all the (high-end) bass. In between, both mains and Sub are playing the SAME bass content at the same time to varying percentages which are supposed to add up to "correct".

That's why Sub Phase is so important because the bass the Sub is producing can Phase cancel against that same bass the mains are producing -- resulting in the impression that bass is anemic. And that's why Sub positioning is so important, because if your room has bass cancellation nulls near certain frequencies or bass resonance peaks near other frequencies, then how the Sub's output "couples" to the room -- how those standing waves get established -- will be a major factor in how well the transition from mains to Sub works through the Crossover frequency range.

So let me leave it at this. If your intent is to boost bass presence for personal preference, then you should be looking to use a sound processor.

But if your intent is to fill a gap in bass which you feel your main speakers are not capable of handling on their own, then a proper Crossover setup (not "double bass") with a decent Sub is surely the way to go, as it is highly unlikely you'll ever have a Sub whose bass response precisely counteracts the LACK of output from your mains -- meaning bass balance will end up being wrong compared to other frequencies in the main speaker channels.
--Bob
post #4424 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

And apparently Large means turn the subwoofer off.

No. "Large" means no bass steering from THAT speaker. The Sub still gets LFE bass and bass steered from other speakers which are set to "Small".
--Bob
post #4425 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdesjardins99 View Post

I have the Oppo 103 connected to my Samsung 5300 TV with an HDMI cable (the Oppo supplied one), and the picture quality of somewhat soft. I have used DVD video Essentials to calibrate the TV, and I still cannot get the picture from the Blu Ray to be anywhere near the quality of the Comcast HD signal (which is 1080i). I have the Oppo set to output 1080p, and I have tried Auto as well, with no difference in picture quality. I have tried several different Blu Ray discs, with the same result from all of them. I am using the HDMI 1 output, as that one is supposed to be superior.

This is my first Oppo, and I am very disappointed with the picture so far. The picture from my $200 Sony Blu Ray player plugged into a different Samsung TV has offered me a far better picture. Since the HDTV picture is so good, I don't believe it's the TV that is causing the problem. The firmware on both the TV and the Oppo have been updated.

Can anyone offer any advice to sharpen the picture? I must be doing something wrong, but I just don't know what it could be.


Thanks everyone for all of your suggestions. I was swamped at work this week but am working on this over the weekend.

Took me a week, but I was able to check that the TV takes 1080p, and it does. The blu-rays are still not showing up as sharp as the HDTV signal. Both inputs on the TV are set up exactly the same.

I am going to try HDMI 2 tomorrow to see if that helps. I know HDMI 1 is supposed to be superior, but I don't know what else to try.
post #4426 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

That's a selfish view. The whole reason I bought the Oppo is that it's also a preamp. No preamp, no sale. I am happy for you that you think Oppo programmed it as YOU would "expect," but it's not what I expectede and it's not what I had with my previous AV equipment. I am not asking for anything unreasonable here (other vendors have it), just a bit of coding. Apparently you don't use it as a preamp, so you don't care, but some of us do. Show some empathy.

I prefer Oppo spend time improving the product in ways that benefit most users, not a few users who want to deviate from standards. Perhaps that's selfish, but if you need a full-featured preamp with bass management options that not even all preamps and receivers support, then perhaps you're asking a bit too much of the Oppo and you should get a dedicated preamp. But hey, I don't work for Oppo, so submit a feature request to them and see what happens. If enough people ask for it and the feature adds value (i.e., increased sales), I'm sure they'll add it.

Bob is probably right though; if there's something about the sound you're getting that makes you feel the need to double the bass by sending it to both the front speakers and the sub at the same time, then there's most likely some work you can do to improve your sub's response in your room. Calibration, placement, and experimentation are in order, not electronic band-aids.
post #4427 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

My sub is a bit small, so I want the extra air movement that my LR speakers are capable of. Oppo should let ME make that decision, not make it for me.

Dude, it's not Oppo. The definition of small and large speakers is implemented that way across pretty much every manufacturer( i don't personally know of anyone that does it otherwise). It's an industry standard in terms of definition and thus function.
post #4428 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by obie_fl View Post

OK you seem pretty upset that Oppo doesn't support this it is after a BD player first not a AVR and AFAIK not all AVRs even support what you want to do. I disagree with what you want to do but realize many want to have double bass and it has been debated here on AVS before. I have powered woofers in my mains and I still set them to small at 60hz but I can't convince you not to try double bass. So here is what you do. Get two "Y" splitters and put them on the back of the R&L outputs. Run one line to the speaker and the other to the sub. You will have to recombine things at the sub but its doable. You will have to be mindful of your levels and I'm not sure what if any effect the impedance load will have on the Oppo. I think Bob already mentioned but you really need to make sure your sub is in phase with your mains. I'd also suggest you ask Oppo about getting it added they have a good record of listening to their customers.

Obie,

Thanks for your response. I thought about the Y splitters, but as you point out, that's not an ideal solution either. Sub-phasing is less critical when the sub is at the opposite end of the room from the LR speakers. That's where a variable phase dial is more useful than a switch: you can often hear the bass lock in. With a switch it's just o or 180, and usually neither one sounds better (when the sub is far away from the fronts). I bought the 103 based on the reviews that pointed out it can replace an AVR -- it was the deal maker for me. For now I am running the fronts as small, but there isn't as much bass as with my Outlaw 990.

I HAVE requested that Oppo add the functionality to the firmware. There are a few here who comprehend what I am asking for and why who also agree that it would be an enhancement to the firmware. The purpose of my posting is to warn others who might have had the same expectation I did and to encourage them to also ask Oppo for an enhancement.

Cheers
post #4429 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Tucker View Post

Are you only running 2 main speakers and a sub?

No, I have a full 5.1 system. Just noticed when I playing around with the settings trying to figure out what the Oppo was doing that it shut the sub off and I had to manually turn it back on.
post #4430 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You are quite correct. If you want to double the bass that was engineered into the content by the folks who designed the mix -- i.e., have it play at full volume in your speakers AND ALSO play at full volume in your Sub -- the OPPO won't be able to set that up for you. That sort of configuration -- sometimes called "super bass" or "double bass" -- is certainly available in some sound processors, but there is no such option in the OPPO.

I would just point out that feeling you NEED to double the bass in that fashion almost always points to a problem in the Subwoofer setup. Either your Sub is suffering Phase cancellation against the mains, or you have room response issues for bass (which may be addressed by repositioning the Sub), or you have not yet made a good choice of Crossover frequency to match the capabilities of your speakers and the bass response of your room.

There's a certain amount of bass energy authored into each channel. If your speakers are truly "full range" then they are ALREADY reproducing that. If you now also have the Subwoofer play that same bass content then you have just screwed up the balance of bass frequencies compared to the other frequencies. Think of cranking up the Bass Tone control on a sound processor.

Adjusting the sound for personal preference is of course each listener's privilege. But it ought to START from knowing your system is reproducing calibrated levels -- not "double bass".

In any event, the OPPO does not provide Tone controls, or Room EQ controls, or this type of "double bass" setup. For that sort of "personal preference" flexibility you really will need to use a real sound processor.



But if your problem is ACTUALLY that you don't think your main speakers are capable of reproducing all the bass INTENDED to be in the mix, then that's where you need a proper Crossover (not "double bass") and some quality time with calibration discs to help sort out Sub positioning and Sub Phase.

The Crossover in the OPPO is not a hard cutoff. It rolls in over about an octave (factor of 2) in frequencies. So if you have an 80Hz Crossover set, then the main speakers and the Sub *SHARE* the load of producing bass in the range of roughly 40-80Hz. Below roughly 40Hz the Sub gets all the (low-end) bass and above roughly 80Hz the mains get all the (high-end) bass. In between, both mains and Sub are playing the SAME bass content at the same time to varying percentages which are supposed to add up to "correct".

That's why Sub Phase is so important because the bass the Sub is producing can Phase cancel against that same bass the mains are producing -- resulting in the impression that bass is anemic. And that's why Sub positioning is so important, because if your room has bass cancellation nulls near certain frequencies or bass resonance peaks near other frequencies, then how the Sub's output "couples" to the room -- how those standing waves get established -- will be a major factor in how well the transition from mains to Sub works through the Crossover frequency range.

So let me leave it at this. If your intent is to boost bass presence for personal preference, then you should be looking to use a sound processor.

But if your intent is to fill a gap in bass which you feel your main speakers are not capable of handling on their own, then a proper Crossover setup (not "double bass") with a decent Sub is surely the way to go, as it is highly unlikely you'll ever have a Sub whose bass response precisely counteracts the LACK of output from your mains -- meaning bass balance will end up being wrong compared to other frequencies in the main speaker channels.
--Bob

Thanks Bob, that was instructive.

In my high-resolution, 2 channel system, I use the sub to fill in the 20-40 Hz band where the main speakers trail off. This has the advantage of keeping the cross-over electronics out of the main speakers (I use a minimalist approach) and it works well. I was applying that approach to my HT system, but as you point out HT is different and my approach may be sub-optimal in a HT. My previous processor (Outlaw 900) allowed me to get a bit extra bass by using the fronts full range.

My next upgrade is to replace my single 10" sub with four ten inch subs placed around the room. Then I won't care about using the fronts full range. In the meantime, I'll try your suggestions with the current sub.
post #4431 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Despoiler View Post

Dude, it's not Oppo. The definition of small and large speakers is implemented that way across pretty much every manufacturer( i don't personally know of anyone that does it otherwise). It's an industry standard in terms of definition and thus function.

So I am beginning to understand from this thread. Oddly enough, my last two processors (NAD and Outlaw) supported what I wanted to do, so that was my expectation with the Oppo. BTW, my name is not "Dude."
post #4432 of 16402
The Outlaw threads is where I remember a lot of the double bass debates in years past. I used to own two of their their processors myself. It is definitely an option on some processors and there are people out there like you who desire it but it is decidedly nonstandard. One of the reasons I'm interested in what you are saying is I went down this road several years ago and realized it wasn't the correct way for me. Four ten inch subs should be very nice for music but if you are into movies you might consider getting a bigger sub for bottom trolling. Good Luck and I hope the Oppo meets your needs.
post #4433 of 16402
Searching the thread for experiences with running Fios through the player in order to utilize the Qdeo processing and didn't find much. Is it worth the price of admission for that alone?
Thanks
post #4434 of 16402
Another quick question guys.
If I play MKV / BDMV files via USB, does the movie file passes and processed by the Marvell's Kyoto-G2H video processor?
Thanks smile.gif
post #4435 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

No, I have a full 5.1 system. Just noticed when I playing around with the settings trying to figure out what the Oppo was doing that it shut the sub off and I had to manually turn it back on.

Hmm, that may very well be why mine was all of sudden found to be "off" yesterday because i certainly wouldn't have turned it to off on purpose. smile.gif
post #4436 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie_18 View Post

Another quick question guys.
If I play MKV / BDMV files via USB, does the movie file passes and processed by the Marvell's Kyoto-G2H video processor?
Thanks smile.gif

Yes.

-Bill
post #4437 of 16402
Just bought an Oppo BDP-103. I will be attaching it via HDMI-DVI cable to my Samsung HLN-507 DLP. I will be using the HDMI 1 output of the Oppo. With this type of connection what would be the best settings in the video setup menu, and in particular in the picture adjustment settings? Thank You
post #4438 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ednmod1100 View Post

Just bought an Oppo BDP-103. I will be attaching it via HDMI-DVI cable to my Samsung HLN-507 DLP. I will be using the HDMI 1 output of the Oppo. With this type of connection what would be the best settings in the video setup menu, and in particular in the picture adjustment settings? Thank You

See links.
http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-103_Settings_Checklist.html

http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-103-faq.html#what-are-the-recommended-settings-for-the-oppo-bdp-103
post #4439 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Searching the thread for experiences with running Fios through the player in order to utilize the Qdeo processing and didn't find much. Is it worth the price of admission for that alone?
Thanks
I'm doing it, feel free to shoot me any questions in PM
post #4440 of 16402
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ednmod1100 View Post

Just bought an Oppo BDP-103. I will be attaching it via HDMI-DVI cable to my Samsung HLN-507 DLP. I will be using the HDMI 1 output of the Oppo. With this type of connection what would be the best settings in the video setup menu, and in particular in the picture adjustment settings? Thank You

DVI is always (?) RGB color space. HDMI should figure that out, but rather than chancing it I would set Color Space to RGB Video.

Otherwise the Picture Adjustment settings should be left at zero. Do any calibration tweaking in the display.

-Bill
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