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Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 189

post #5641 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbar View Post

Tests pass fine on HDMI 2 though I need to set RGB color space for the Clipping screen as it is clipped in YCbCr 4:2:2 and can't remember if also clipped with 4:4:4.

Same thing happens on HDMI1 so consistent across both.

I have 103 of course connected via HDMI1 and HDMI2 into a Marantz AV8801 which is set pretty much to pass through except I have Covert I/P enabled to allow Marantz Menu to be displayed. The Marantz is connected to a JVC RS56 / X75 so I am thinking the JVC is the one that prefers the RGB colour space. Can test further as have a monitor connected to Marantz also on Monitor2 out that I use when configuring the equipment in the wiring closet. Equipment rack is outside the HT room.

Chroma burst gives same results on HDMI1 and HDMI2 using all 3 color spaces I believe. It is only the clipping test that passes with RGB and fails (i.e. clipping) with YCbCr. Test says ability to display above reference so not sure if YCbCr is stopping anything going out over reference but RGB isn't.

should say running video as split and color space as RGB with 12 bit deep color. Happy to test different configuration if that would help.

I also did test in Source Direct I believe.

THANK YOU. If you have time please verify that HDMI 2 passes the tests using Source Direct since that is the only output I normally use. So far the only HDMI 2 color space I can get to pass the tests is if I have the Mediatek chip INTERLACE 1080 24p to 1080i. They all pass in that configuration but with blue being more prominent than from HDMI 1. Picture on reference material is worse than HDMI 2 1080 p24. My setup is 103> Radiance XD> Elite 70x5. Thanks again.
post #5642 of 16420
^ There is no "clipping" (failure to pass Peak Whites or high Luma colors distinguishably) on either HDMI 1 or 2 for any of RGB Video Level, YCbCr 4:4:4, or YCbCr 4:2:2, at either 1080p or Source Direct. Tested with Spears & Munsil.

If you are seeing clipping for any of these combos -- particularly if you are seeing it on both HDMI 1 and 2, then that means there is a settings error or bug in your AVR or Display screwing up its handling of those input formats.

(RGB PC Level will, of course, Clip because that format does not include data range to carry the Peak White values.)
--Bob
post #5643 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryep View Post

Has the analog output hissing and popping been fixed. Do people out there use the 7.1 analog out have no popping and hissing hooked up to a amp. Is this a small minority.

It has not been fixed. I suspect that there are not a lot of us using the analog output.
post #5644 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

Nothing that can be fixed. You either have it, or you don't, and there is no possibility of OPPO doing a running change to the player as this would require that you completely redesign the audio analog board.

That is not my understanding. Oppo assured me that they are looking into the digital popping for a future firmware release. The hissing is another story.
post #5645 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Again, we do technical Q&A here on the things we can help with. Feel free to post if:
  • You need help
  • You can help someone else
  • You have new test results or other info

...regardless of whether it reflects positively or negatively on OPPO.

People who repeatedly post on how unhappy they are and how much money they spent are complaining. OPPO pays people to deal with unhappy customers, but here at AVSForum we are volunteers and we stick to the technical Q&A topics above.

This has been the practice in all the OPPO threads for years. If it becomes a disputed point we will ask the forum moderators to rule but I think they will tell you the same thing.

-Bill

Bill, I have to agree with thirdkind here. This thread is the owners thread and potential purchasers may be surfing here to get impressions on how satisfied owners are with their purchase. If Oppo advertises a feature and it flat out doesn't work, then they deserve to be criticized. That's a public service warning to potential purchasers. Telling a poster that he is naive to have believed Oppo's advertising or to stop complaining is inappropriate. As a regular contributor here I am sure that you get a bit tired of reading the complaints, however allow those of us who are not happy to vent a little steam.

I expected the crossover processing to work differently than it does, however the people on the forum explained that my expectations were not industry standard even though my previous equipment did it that way. OK fair enough, I accept that. But when used without a preamp/receiver, the Oppo has huge pops and thumps and often fails to receive audio at turn on due to HDMI handshaking issues. That is a defect, not industry standard. The fact is Oppo advertised that a preamp would not be required and that was the reason I bought it. I expect it to work properly and it doesn't. Oppo has said they will fix it and I am starting to get impatient waiting. Warning potential purchasers that there are defects in the product is a service.
post #5646 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

The fact is Oppo advertised that a preamp would not be required and that was the reason I bought it. I expect it to work properly and it doesn't. Oppo has said they will fix it and I am starting to get impatient waiting. Warning potential purchasers that there are defects in the product is a service.
While I agree that features that are present on a product should work properly, where exactly does Oppo advertise that a preamp isn't required? They don't even make this claim for the 105. One can infer that the presence of a volume control for the analog outputs means they can be used in conjunction with an amp with no preamp in between, but Oppo does not advertise this as a suggested configuration. And as stated previously, some people are using the 7.1 outputs connected directly to an amp without any hiss / pop issues, so the issue is equipment dependent.
post #5647 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

... you also reduce the complexity of the HDMI handshakes which can cause unwanted errors like no video or incorrect audio.

Hi Neuromancer, can you please explain what you mean by this "HDMI handshakes which can cause unwanted errors" ??
post #5648 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

While I agree that features that are present on a product should work properly, where exactly does Oppo advertise that a preamp isn't required? They don't even make this claim for the 105. One can infer that the presence of a volume control for the analog outputs means they can be used in conjunction with an amp with no preamp in between, but Oppo does not advertise this as a suggested configuration. And as stated previously, some people are using the 7.1 outputs connected directly to an amp without any hiss / pop issues, so the issue is equipment dependent.
You are correct. I think it was the professional reviewers making this statement based on the presence of the volume control on the remote. I see no evidence that Oppo advertised it.

However, it does beg the question as to why you would want anything less than 100% volume if you were using a preamp or an AVR with the analog outputs.

So yes, inferred, but not advertised. That said, IMHO it is still a good idea to warn people that this configuration may not work for them, even if it is not Oppo that recommended it.

Back to another point though, isn't it considered taboo to do video processing in source direct mode? Isn't this what's happening on HDMI 1? To me that plus the Netflix issues are valid complaints.
post #5649 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptorX View Post

However, it does beg the question as to why you would want anything less than 100% volume if you were using a preamp or an AVR with the analog outputs.
One use other than as a preamp would be to level match with other analog sources to avoid big volume changes when switching sources. Though most receivers offer this as a feature these days, not all do and a lot of 2 channel gear doesn't.
Quote:
Back to another point though, isn't it considered taboo to do video processing in source direct mode?
To me, source direct implies that there should be no processing going on beyond the bare minimum needed to send out a valid HDMI signal.
post #5650 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaptorX View Post
.
.
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Back to another point though, isn't it considered taboo to do video processing in source direct mode? Isn't this what's happening on HDMI 1? To me that plus the Netflix issues are valid complaints.

 

Source Direct means just that! A direct pixel stream from the source disk .... The pixels coming off the BD/DVD disk should be identical to the ones on the output of the HDMI connector. No pixel processing in between the disk and HDMI output connector. 

post #5651 of 16420
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

That is not my understanding. Oppo assured me that they are looking into the digital popping for a future firmware release. The hissing is another story.

Digital popping and hissing are two separate subjects. The hissing they are talking about is a consistent hiss sound through the speakers when using the analog outputs, regardless of the output volume of the player.

Popping, especially when you are talking about accepting a digital audio signal, can be related to the analog outputs not muting when there is a change in the source material or jitter. If you are hearing pops in the analog stage when playing disc media, then you most likely have a defective unit. If you hear pops when using the HDMI inputs then this is related to HDMI jitter from the source. OPPO will be resolving that through the next firmware releases.
post #5652 of 16420
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

Hi Neuromancer, can you please explain what you mean by this "HDMI handshakes which can cause unwanted errors" ??

You can end up with issues such as the player selecting the wrong output resolution, the wrong color space, the wrong down-mix, and a myriad of other issues due to standard EDID handshakes. You also increase HDCP handshaking errors as you are sending the signal through an additional chipset and an additional HDMI transmitter.

When using the player as a transport you want the cleanest, most reliably output, and HDMI 2 would be that output.
post #5653 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Source Direct means just that! A direct pixel stream from the source disk .... The pixels coming off the BD/DVD disk should be identical to the ones on the output of the HDMI connector. No pixel processing in between the disk and HDMI output connector. 

Not true. There is always processing related to the decoding of the disc and to color upsampling if nothing else. For many folks the output video stream also gets changed in format even with Source Direct (e.g., RGB output, or application of Deep Color). Now, in theory there's only one correct answer for the result of this, and THAT is Source Direct. I.e., no enhancement processing and no value added manipulation of the output such as scaling to a different resolution or Zoom.
--Bob
post #5654 of 16420
On the issue of using the 103 as a preamp, with no processor: By way of background, I tried the 103 as its own preamp, going straight into an Outlaw amp via analog, hdmi to the tv, and there was a hissing and popping issue. I eventually bought an Emotiva processor. I have no pops or hisses any longer. On this issue, the following was posted on one of the Emotiva boards:

"That's because the 103 and 105 are two different animals in that respect.

Both alter volume in the digital domain, but the 103 must truncate the data to do so. The noise is introduced as part of the process, but is not altered by lowering the volume. Therefore, the residual noise will remain at a constant. The audible level, of which, would be determined by both the gain structure of your amp and the sensitivity of your speakers.

When you return the volume to "zero", there is no truncation of the data.

The 105, on the other hand, uses 32 bit DACs and utilizes the extra bits to lower the volume without truncating the original data."

I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but through I would pass it along.
post #5655 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Source Direct means just that! A direct pixel stream from the source disk .... The pixels coming off the BD/DVD disk should be identical to the ones on the output of the HDMI connector. No pixel processing in between the disk and HDMI output connector. 
But, alas, there is no format available for transmission over HDMI that are the same as what's on the disk. The disc is 4:2:0 and the closest HDMI is 4:2:2. That means that the color values of the pixels MUST be generated through interpolation. You could just duplicate the neighboring values, but its almost always better to do some form of half way value when generating the new pixel. So there is some processing that must be done.

But I do agree - there should be no noise processing at all on the luminance channel when using Source Direct.
post #5656 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ There is no "clipping" (failure to pass Peak Whites or high Luma colors distinguishably) on either HDMI 1 or 2 for any of RGB Video Level, YCbCr 4:4:4, or YCbCr 4:2:2, at either 1080p or Source Direct. Tested with Spears & Munsil.

If you are seeing clipping for any of these combos -- particularly if you are seeing it on both HDMI 1 and 2, then that means there is a settings error or bug in your AVR or Display screwing up its handling of those input formats.

(RGB PC Level will, of course, Clip because that format does not include data range to carry the Peak White values.)
--Bob

That is my take also. I believe it is the JVC that clips peak ( above reference) when receiving YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 but it could be the Marantz though I have set to passthrough supposedly. Not an issue really as RGB is fine.

Will test to confirm it is the JVC though.
post #5657 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

THANK YOU. If you have time please verify that HDMI 2 passes the tests using Source Direct since that is the only output I normally use. So far the only HDMI 2 color space I can get to pass the tests is if I have the Mediatek chip INTERLACE 1080 24p to 1080i. They all pass in that configuration but with blue being more prominent than from HDMI 1. Picture on reference material is worse than HDMI 2 1080 p24. My setup is 103> Radiance XD> Elite 70x5. Thanks again.

Will do.
post #5658 of 16420
My first 103 had no signal from the HDMI 2 output so I had it exchanged. The new one on HDMI 2 cannot make the handshake when using the Fios box input on the HDMI back setting. If I unplug HDMI 2 and use HDMI 1 with the same exact setup everything works fine. I should also mention that on HDMI 2 I can play Blurays just fine it only has issues on the HDMI back setting. Any ideas on what is going on? I have it set to Split AV and I don't see any other setting that would just affect HDMI 2, I even tried all of the colorspaces and unpugged the power cord for a length of time. I would hate to have to return it for a 3rd one!
Edited by pwiss - 2/15/13 at 8:53pm
post #5659 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ There is no "clipping" (failure to pass Peak Whites or high Luma colors distinguishably) on either HDMI 1 or 2 for any of RGB Video Level, YCbCr 4:4:4, or YCbCr 4:2:2, at either 1080p or Source Direct. Tested with Spears & Munsil.

If you are seeing clipping for any of these combos -- particularly if you are seeing it on both HDMI 1 and 2, then that means there is a settings error or bug in your AVR or Display screwing up its handling of those input formats.

(RGB PC Level will, of course, Clip because that format does not include data range to carry the Peak White values.)
--Bob

Correct and retested with RS46 and with an LCD monitor.

the JVC RS56 clips above reference regardless of colorspace . The LCD monitor does not clip. Both are connected via a Marantz AV8801 so it must be the JVC that clips above reference.

So, retraction on earlier post that said JVC did not clip in RGB color space because it does/did in test today.
post #5660 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

THANK YOU. If you have time please verify that HDMI 2 passes the tests using Source Direct since that is the only output I normally use. So far the only HDMI 2 color space I can get to pass the tests is if I have the Mediatek chip INTERLACE 1080 24p to 1080i. They all pass in that configuration but with blue being more prominent than from HDMI 1. Picture on reference material is worse than HDMI 2 1080 p24. My setup is 103> Radiance XD> Elite 70x5. Thanks again.

Ok reran test and this time can confirm that I was in source direct.

So, ran tests with all three color spaces and results same on HDMI1 and HDMI2. There was no difference.

All passed chroma multiburst test except the 4:2:2 color space on both HDMI1 and HDMI2. It failed the vertical test for both HDMI1 and HDMI2.

Not saying it is the player as could very well be the JVC.
post #5661 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajaxmike View Post

That is not my understanding. Oppo assured me that they are looking into the digital popping for a future firmware release. The hissing is another story.

Digital popping and hissing are two separate subjects. The hissing they are talking about is a consistent hiss sound through the speakers when using the analog outputs, regardless of the output volume of the player.
 

 

Isn't this hissing caused by DC offsets on the players outputs, the reason they AC coupled them? Maybe the output caps have gone bad???

post #5662 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Source Direct means just that! A direct pixel stream from the source disk .... The pixels coming off the BD/DVD disk should be identical to the ones on the output of the HDMI connector. No pixel processing in between the disk and HDMI output connector. 

Not true. There is always processing related to the decoding of the disc and to color upsampling if nothing else. For many folks the output video stream also gets changed in format even with Source Direct (e.g., RGB output, or application of Deep Color). Now, in theory there's only one correct answer for the result of this, and THAT is Source Direct. I.e., no enhancement processing and no value added manipulation of the output such as scaling to a different resolution or Zoom.
--Bob

 

In hindsight, you are correct. Data is recorded in 4:2 0 format on the disk and at the least converted to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 by the media decoder.

post #5663 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

You can end up with issues such as the player selecting the wrong output resolution, the wrong color space, the wrong down-mix, and a myriad of other issues due to standard EDID handshakes. You also increase HDCP handshaking errors as you are sending the signal through an additional chipset and an additional HDMI transmitter.

When using the player as a transport you want the cleanest, most reliably output, and HDMI 2 would be that output.

Understood. So HDMI 2 is the cleanest and most reliable. But for 3D, (and perhaps even for better DVD upscaling), one must use HDMI 1. => Is there no way to have one's cake and eat it?
post #5664 of 16420
Very interesting new observation on the lip-sync problem when using external HDMI input...

I had my Panny 65VT50 calibrated today by Jeff Meier, who apparently has quite a bit of experience working with Oppo players. I brought up the subject of the 103 sharpness 0 vs. +1 for discussion with him, and although he wasn't familiar with the contents of this thread he did have his own intuitive feelings on the subject, i.e. that 0 should of course be the optimal setting. He was quite interested to see visually what things looked like on the VT50 (sharpness set to 0 there) both ways.

So he then spent a fair amount of time looking at several test patterns, going between 0 and +1. When it was all over hIs final conclusion was that 0 is what he felt was correct, and +1 is not. He didn't feel that the Oppo "star field" sparkles (under the logo) was a valid test pattern, although he granted that it did become "sharper" at +1.

Anyway, while he was working on the 103 for this issue he reviewed the rest of the settings I'd installed to eliminate anything else the player might have been doing or adding, that was unnecessary and/or undesirable (in his mind). In particular, he changed Video Setup -> HDMI Options -> color space (HDMI1 and HDMI2) to YCbCr 4:2:2. This was different from the YCbCr 4:4:4 which is the recommended setting expressed at the front of this thread, and is also the value returned if AUTO is set (since the 65VT50 supports that).

I asked him why he was doing that, and he said that "there is no 4:4:4 source, so the player is simply padding the 4:2:2 input with zero bits to produce 4:4:4 output". By setting the output to match the input it was that much less that the player was doing to process the input in some way.

Ok. He's the expert, and if he says that's "better" (or at the very least not harmful) I'll buy it. So that's how I've been running ever since he finished the calibration early this afternoon... YCbCr 4:2:2.

Now I bring this up because ever since this change was made, I have NOT SEEN THE LIP-SYNC SYMPTOM from any of the HDTV programs I've watched today (from the Linksys DMA2100 WMC extender running through external HDMI input to the 103). This is unheard of in my experience.


I will obviously now pay close attention going forward, to see if this "giant breakthrough" continues, or if I was just lucky with today's viewing.

I'm still using downmix-to-stereo analog audio going from 103 FL/FR out to my analog L/R input on my AVR->speakers (because I thought avoiding HDMI audio might fix the lip-sync problem, which it did not), and things seem to be working perfectly. Lip sync problem seems to have disappeared, and the only change is going to YCbCr 4:2:2 so I have to attribute the fix to that settings change.

If the lip-sync problem disappearance holds up I will try going back to HDMI audio from 103->AVR, just to see if the fix is independent of the type of audio output and seems tied to the YCbCr 4:4:4 setting, fixed by going to 4:2:2.

Just one more data point on this subject. Wanted to share this discovery with others.
post #5665 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

Ok. He's the expert, and if he says that's "better" (or at the very least not harmful) I'll buy it. So that's how I've been running ever since he finished the calibration early this afternoon... YCbCr 4:2:2.

Now I bring this up because ever since this change was made, I have NOT SEEN THE LIP-SYNC SYMPTOM from any of the HDTV programs I've watched today (from the Linksys DMA2100 WMC extender running through external HDMI input to the 103). This is unheard of in my experience.
As a general rule... The more 'video' post-processing your TV and/or media player is made to do, the greater the likelihood of audio sync issues.

Which is why it's advisable to go through all your TV's post-processing options (for each input) and switch them all off wink.gif
post #5666 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

As a general rule... The more 'video' post-processing your TV and/or media player is made to do, the greater the likelihood of audio sync issues.

Which is why it's advisable to go through all your TV's post-processing options (for each input) and switch them all off wink.gif
I didn't do anything to the TV's options... I changed the 103 to specify YCbCr 4:2:2.
post #5667 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post


I asked him why he was doing that, and he said that "there is no 4:4:4 source, so the player is simply padding the 4:2:2 input with zero bits to produce 4:4:4 output".

That's not correct. 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 are different chroma formats. You can see illustrations here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

Are you sure he wasn't talking about the Deep Color settings?

-Bill
post #5668 of 16420
Just received my 103 and have been really digging it.
I am running out of HDMI 1 with RGB. Sharpness at +1.
I read here that was the best setting for a Kuro - (which I have)

Since then I read the HDMI 2 is the cleanest and most reliable..?
And 4:2:2 provides the least processing. And now someone claims his professional calibrator claims sharpness 0 is correct.

Safe to assume none of the settings are global? One must decide what works best in their individual situation?
Because HDMI 1, RGB, sharp +1 on my set up looks really nice.
But I don't run charts or patterns. I would like to be at optimum settings.
post #5669 of 16420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojogypson View Post

Just received my 103 and have been really digging it.
I am running out of HDMI 1 with RGB. Sharpness at +1.
I read here that was the best setting for a Kuro - (which I have)

Since then I read the HDMI 2 is the cleanest and most reliable..?
And 4:2:2 provides the least processing. And now someone claims his professional calibrator claims sharpness 0 is correct.

Safe to assume none of the settings are global? One must decide what works best in their individual situation?
Because HDMI 1, RGB, sharp +1 on my set up looks really nice.
But I don't run charts or patterns. I would like to be at optimum settings.

It really is a matter of subjective preference. If you are happy, why be unhappy because someone else uses different settings?

As an aside, we see this every day all over these forums: "I tried all these different settings and I don't see a difference. What should I use?" Answer: "if you don't see a difference, then it doesn't matter". That's just true, right?

On the other hand, your eye-brain facility develops with time. The more watching you do, the more you will see with time. I recommend getting one or more calibration discs and learning how to use the patterns. Once you understand them you will want to adjust your display in certain basic ways and use that as a starting point.

-Bill
Edited by wmcclain - 2/16/13 at 5:30am
post #5670 of 16420
Thanks dsperber. I have a gt50 calibrated by chad b so its nice to get some feedback from someone with a similar tv. I found 4:2:2 to be the preferred color space by my gt50 as well as my g25 with the exception of the 1080p pure direct option which definitely looks best with 4:4:4, at least with s and m chroma patterns and lack of moire. I will play with 4:2:2 though and lip sync. Chad is coming back to do my 3d and will ask him to take a look at my oppo sharpness. Thanks again for sharing.
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