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Head to Head Receiver Challenge. Spending $3,000 for Yamaha RX-A2010 vs Denon AVR 4311ci

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
Ok, so after deliberating about buying a better receiver to accommodate my new speakers and sub, .... after hearing 50% that receiver is a major part vs another 50% of people saying that it's not ... I've decided to see for myself if I need to spend $1,000+ on a receiver.

I am going to buy;

Yamaha Rx-A2010 = $1,400
and
Denon 4311ci = $1,500

to see if I hear a difference when compared to my current Yamaha rx-v465 receiver.

I will report my findings on this board in a week.

My questions for you guys is .... what should I look for?
First run everything flat? no EQ, etc?
Second test is to use those things like Audyssey and YPAO to see which one deals best with my room?

What else???

thank you.


P.S. I hate the fact that it will take at least 10 min to switch from each receiver. Especially since I don't use banana plugs and it's not that easy to get to the back of my receiver.


My System
post #2 of 30
Let see things that i would like to see

Design
Feature
back end
ease of setup
Sound with no calibration then with
video
music
game
movie
post #3 of 30
Get the 4311 and save yourself time and trouble. The Yamaha will not eq the sub. Not that one anyway. You will need to use a good program to get the best out of your system and Audyssey XT32 is very good with doing that. You will notice a difference between it and the Yamaha you are using now. JMHO.
post #4 of 30
Pianist,

I would suggest the 4311 as well. I have no experience with the new Yamaha AVRs and I'm sure they are excellent. But the 4311 with XT32 would be a nice addition to your system. I have the F12SE and XT32 does an excellent job of EQing it and my main speakers as well. Nice speakers as I had the Sierra-1s in my system for a few years. It is going to be difficult to A-B both AVRs as you change them in and out of your system IMO.

Bill
post #5 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Pianist,
I would suggest the 4311 as well. I have no experience with the new Yamaha AVRs and I'm sure they are excellent. But the 4311 with XT32 would be a nice addition to your system. I have the F12SE and XT32 does an excellent job of EQing it and my main speakers as well. Nice speakers as I had the Sierra-1s in my system for a few years. It is going to be difficult to A-B both AVRs as you change them in and out of your system IMO.
Bill

And in addition I think we should not forget about Audyssey's DynamicEQ working in conjunction with MultEQ that will maintain SQ whenever the MV (Master Volume) is turned down from movie ref. level (0 dB setting). Or in other words: loud or soft, SQ will remain same.

Please tell me if I'm wrong here, but I know of no such feature within Yamaha's YPAO that could do the same.
post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

And in addition I think we should not forget about Audyssey's DynamicEQ working in conjunction with MultEQ that will maintain SQ whenever the MV (Master Volume) is turned down from movie ref. level (0 dB setting). Or in other words: loud or soft, SQ will remain same.
Please tell me if I'm wrong here, but I know of no such feature within Yamaha's YPAO that could do the same.

Yamaha has their own version that's called Adaptive DRC. Works ok on the A3000 I have but IMO neither work nearly as well as Dolby Volume in my H/K 7550HD.
post #7 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

Get the 4311 and save yourself time and trouble. The Yamaha will not eq the sub. Not that one anyway. You will need to use a good program to get the best out of your system and Audyssey XT32 is very good with doing that. You will notice a difference between it and the Yamaha you are using now. JMHO.

That Yamaha (the 2010) does EQ the sub (in fact it can EQ 2 subs independently), although it's not necessarily going to do as good a job as the Denon. But it depends a lot on the room.

And there's no guarantee he's going to like what YPAO or Audyssey do to the sound. I would compare EQ on and off with both systems.
post #8 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

That Yamaha (the 2010) does EQ the sub (in fact it can EQ 2 subs independently), although it's not necessarily going to do as good a job as the Denon. But it depends a lot on the room.
And there's no guarantee he's going to like what YPAO or Audyssey do to the sound. I would compare EQ on and off with both systems.

Yep, exactly what i am doing.
With my current yamaha receiver, after it does it's thing, i turn off the EQ it proposes. So let's see what new receivers can do
post #9 of 30
Does xt 32 means 32 listening position? Im guessing its for a big room. I have a small room right now.
post #10 of 30
XT32 has the same 8 mic position limitation as does XT, rather it has 32x more speaker filter control points than XT.
post #11 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantom52 View Post

Yamaha has their own version that's called Adaptive DRC. Works ok on the A3000 I have but IMO neither work nearly as well as Dolby Volume in my H/K 7550HD.

Actually Adaptive DRC of Yamaha works like Audyssey's Dynamic Volume, but that's a different feature than DynamicEQ. Yamahas do not have an equivalent feature for DynamicEQ made to restore Equal Loudness Contours specific to the human ear when the Master Volume knob is turned down from 0 dB film reference level.
post #12 of 30
These are last yrs models, which I like since they should be discounted..Whou mich is the current asking price?..Where can I get them?
post #13 of 30
Those are two excellent receivers. Just to throw another receiver out there...

The cheaper Onkyo 818 is also audyssey XT32 and for room correction is the functional equivalent of the Denon 4311 unless you are trying to EQ 2 subs independently (that one feature was left off of the 818),

The 818 has two video processors built in - the Vida and the Qdeo. Is it better than the Anchor Bay processor in the Denon 4311? I don't know the answer to that but I think they are all very good at this level.

You can get the 4311 from an authorized dealer for 1200 or so, but (1) you have to find one in stock and (2) you will have to actually call them because they cannot advertise that price.

You can find the 818 for several hundred less than that.

The 4311 is great (I own one) but the 818 is a better value if you don't need the 9 amp channels of the 4311.

I don't think you will hear much difference between the 2010 and the 4311 with room correction off. With it on, I suspect that the 4311 will be superior as in my opinion XT32 is much more sophisticated (thousands of EQ control points) vs YPAO. It will be basically impossible to compare them head to head with even one minute between them, much less 10 minutes. Human audio memory is terrible and fades very quickly

Run the room correction first and be sure to follow (to the letter) the detailed audyssey guide here in AVS. You can always turn off room correction to see if you like it or not.
Edited by Davecraze - 10/6/12 at 8:54pm
post #14 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Those are two excellent receivers. Just to throw another receiver out there...
The cheaper Onkyo 818 is also audyssey XT32 and for room correction is the functional equivalent of the Denon 4311 unless you are trying to EQ 2 subs independently (that one feature was left off of the 818),
The 818 has two video processors built in - the Vida and the Qdeo. Is it better than the Anchor Bay processor in the Denon 4311? I don't know the answer to that but I think they are all very good at this level.
You can get the 4311 from an authorized dealer for 1200 or so, but (1) you have to find one in stock and (2) you will have to actually call them because they cannot advertise that price.
You can find the 818 for several hundred less than that.
The 4311 is great (I own one) but the 818 is a better value if you don't need the 9 amp channels of the 4311.
I don't think you will hear much difference between the 2010 and the 4311 with room correction off. With it on, I suspect that the 4311 will be superior as in my opinion XT32 is much more sophisticated (thousands of EQ control points) vs YPAO. It will be basically impossible to compare them head to head with even one minute between them, much less 10 minutes. Human audio memory is terrible and fades very quickly
Run the room correction first and be sure to follow (to the letter) the detailed audyssey guide here in AVS. You can always turn off room correction to see if you like it or not.



I guess i'll be getting 3 receivers now which is a good thing. I'll have a chance testing 3 diff brands as well 2 diff room correction software
post #15 of 30
If you don't need all the bells and whistles and are concerned more about sound quality you might want to consider the Sherwood Newcastle R-972. The Trinnov room correction is amazing. I just purchased one and it's a keeper for me. My setup is mainly for movie and TV and this receiver does everything I need and the sound is great along with the price!
post #16 of 30
Is the technically outdated Sherwood really a keeper even at the current low price for this discontinued model ?
It had and still has lots of problems and many owners did sell the unit shortly afterwards.
Opinions seem to be very mixed about this and the few units sold at full price left Sherwood in the red... meaning, was a total disaster for Sherwood economically.
If you are not an adventurous person i would rather say...buyers beware.
post #17 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Is the technically outdated Sherwood really a keeper even at the current low price for this discontinued model ?
It had and still has lots of problems and many owners did sell the unit shortly afterwards.
Opinions seem to be very mixed about this and the few units sold at full price left Sherwood in the red... meaning, was a total disaster for Sherwood economically.
If you are not an adventurous person i would rather say...buyers beware.

I agree 100%. If you take away Trinnov the R-972 does not have much to offer as far as current features. It seems when Trinnov is dialed in it offers excellent results. I almost went for the R-972 but I really do not have the time hoping to get optimal performance. Too finicky for me.

Bill
post #18 of 30
Really want to spice it up a bit?

Add a 5ch amp for $1000 to your existing setup.

biggrin.gif
post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I agree 100%. If you take away Trinnov the R-972 does not have much to offer as far as current features. It seems when Trinnov is dialed in it offers excellent results. I almost went for the R-972 but I really do not have the time hoping to get optimal performance. Too finicky for me.
Bill
Like I mentioned if you don't need all the current features such as an app controller or network apps like netflix or pandora it's a good receiver. I haven't had any problems with mine yet. I tried a Yamaha RX-A820 and a H/K AVR7550HD. The Yamaha had a brighter sound to it. The H/K sounded very similar in tonal quality to the 972 but had more power. With the Trinnov turned on the sound field of the 972 was better than both of them.
post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
So .... final comparison ..... decided to buy 3 models to compare



Denon 4311ci
vs
Onkyo tx-nr818
vs
Yamaha rx-a2010


which one do you predict a winner? :-)
post #21 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

So .... final comparison ..... decided to buy 3 models to compare
Denon 4311ci
vs
Onkyo tx-nr818
vs
Yamaha rx-a2010
which one do you predict a winner? :-)

I dunno, which one will you like the best?

I'm going to guess they'll all sound very similar. You'll slightly prefer the sound of one of the receivers. And you'll like some of the features better on another.

wink.gif
post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

which one do you predict a winner? :-)

The one that sounds best to you would be my prediction wink.gif. I think it will come down to the features of each AVR and how each AVR's room correction works. I would suggest reading the Audyssey setup guide and the FAQ linked in the first post of the Audyssey thread.

Bill
post #23 of 30
It's rather amusing the direction the thread is taking.

In the OP's previous recent thread, his main (and just about the only one) problem is with difficulty in dialogue. I and other addressed this (partly in pm). Now this issue doesn't even get a mention any more. So, is there a problem to be addressed?

He got new speakers and wanted the Yamaha 2010 as it's can be had for a good price.

I suggested since he just bought new speakers, spend some time getting used to them first. When the time comes to upgrade, then pick one with Audyssey: you guys have said or repeated essentially the same thing about Audyssey.

Looks very much like it's the upgrade bug...wink.gif
post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 
:-) ..... yep .... once you start spending, hard to stop. Especially after you please your ears with sound you enjoy. Movies, tv, concerts, etc became much more interesting. Saw "Flight of the Phoenix" blu ray, scene where the plane crashes. Felt as if I was in that plane. I think a few neighbors felt the same. So far the best sound I felt.


I understand about getting used to sound etc ... but for me ... if spending another $1,000 will complete the home theater so0und and help my speakers sound closer to their best ability, I am willing to spend now instead of waiting for 2-3 months.

Denon and Onkyo are scheduled to arrive tomorrow. We'll see what the outcome will be.


On a separate note...
How much would you care about the Damping Factor? Someone told me that Denon is not great with it compared to Yamaha and Onkyo.
post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pianist718 View Post

On a separate note...
How much would you care about the Damping Factor? Someone told me that Denon is not great with it compared to Yamaha and Onkyo.

The same way I fell about other amplifier data...

In our relentless quest of audio nirvana, we strive to quantify differences between products, to support the story our ears are hearing. Of course X sounds better than Y, it's THD is .003%. Y's THD is .006%, TWICE what amp X is!?!

Of course, you see the humor...

The most important thing in this hobby, is it sounds good to YOU. With your speakers, in your room, at a listening level you enjoy.
post #26 of 30
Thread Starter 
So .... after playing a bit with Denon 4311 and Onkyo 818 .....

No offense to Onkyo 818 owners but that unit is going back.

To me, even though sound was pretty good from Onkyo ... compared to Denon 4311 I found the following...

Onkyo 818

1) Sound felt a bit too plastic. Don't know how to explain it but Denon just felt more real. Maybe it's all in my head but I was there with a friend and even though he liked Onkyo too ... he felt the same about plastic sound. Denon felt more natural

2) Unit is wayyy too big. Barely fit into the space I had.

3) Knob felt cheap. Not providing a paper manual made me feel as if they were trying to save money on every possible thing and that means that there could have been many other things that got little attention.

4) Color on display. Sorry but huge turn off. Who uses that 15 year old green color on display and then adds light blue glowing color on the knob??? These 2 just don't go together and it looks bad. I am not a designer, but believe me ,,.,, if you care how your unit looks at night .... colors are bad.

5) Running Audyssey gave similar settings as Denon but not identical. I think Denon set speakers to large but crossover to advanced at 40hz fronts, 60hz surrounds. Onkyo set everything to 40Hz.

6) Denon has this nice info on the screen .... on left side of it it shows you the source capability like .... if it's dolby 5ch or 7ch or stereo ... and on right side of the screen it shows what your receiver is outputting. I like this info.

anyway .... i am sure i did not give Onkyo a fair chance. I had it on for about 3-4 hours, did not read the manual ..... cause it was on CD .... and packed it back into the box. My heart just wasn't with it.
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtenn View Post

Like I mentioned if you don't need all the current features such as an app controller or network apps like netflix or pandora it's a good receiver. I haven't had any problems with mine yet. I tried a Yamaha RX-A820 and a H/K AVR7550HD. The Yamaha had a brighter sound to it. The H/K sounded very similar in tonal quality to the 972 but had more power. With the Trinnov turned on the sound field of the 972 was better than both of them.

For $500 bucks shipped, I would not so quickly discount the Sherwood. I've been using mine for about a month now after moving up from my somewhat outdated H/K AVR 330 (haha...ok...really outdated). Does the Sherwood have all the current bells an whistles?? No. Is it a little quirky??? Yes. But if you have a room that needs any sort of acoustic correction...the Trinnov kicks some serious booty for the cash. Yes...there's a second or so of delay switching between sources and signals...but that's the only real annoyance I have with it so far. It made an amazing difference in my room. I spent hours in the past with an SPL meter and my 330 trying to balance out the room, but this thing did a way better job then I in about 10 minutes. To be fair, I've not played with any of the others, such as Audessey, etc. so i can't give a an honest comparison. I'm just saying don't toss the 972 so quickly....it's at least equal room correction to the rest at more than half the price.
post #28 of 30
This is a great thread, I am supremely interested in these receivers, and also have ruled out the Onkyo myself. Can't wait to see how this turns out...
post #29 of 30
So which receiver did you keep??
post #30 of 30
Any pics?? If I had ordered 3 recievers to test out Id definitly post some pics..........
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