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7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 10

post #271 of 530
12/2/12 at 4:22pm
What is your impression of the Quest speakers so far ? Did they solve the buzzing problem you had with the Seatons ?
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post #272 of 530
12/2/12 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

It was always going to be 2 of each of the RE drivers, just which route should I go. 2 at the top of the wall and 2 on the bottom or the 2 to the left and the 2 to right.
In any case , I am going to use a single channel for each of the RE drivers for the time being while I get the LMS drivers and cabs built.
.

Assuming you are EQing in pairs??? Measurement is the only way to be sure of the best combination. Also test a cross corner configuration.
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post #273 of 530
12/2/12 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

What is your impression of the Quest speakers so far ? Did they solve the buzzing problem you had with the Seatons ?
I love the Quested speakers. I don't have any issues with my ears with these. I can listen to them all day long without any problem. Very detailed ,but absolutely no harshness with the soft dome drivers, also base extention is very good
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnw View Post

Assuming you are EQing in pairs??? Measurement is the only way to be sure of the best combination. Also test a cross corner configuration.
Yes, I was thinking of EQ'ing 2 speakers as a single sub. But, I have been contemplating just not using base management on the RS20i and EQ all 8 subs speperately as well as EQ'ing the other 6 channels separartely. This will just mean that all the subs will get all LF content instead of having the option to get the LF content from each speaker.
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post #274 of 530
12/2/12 at 5:13pm
Thread Starter 
Double post.
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post #275 of 530
12/2/12 at 5:52pm
Glad you got it all settled, yours was one of the first few threads I followed since getting back into the A/V hobby. You still using the datasat ?
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post #276 of 530
12/2/12 at 10:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Glad you got it all settled, yours was one of the first few threads I followed since getting back into the A/V hobby. You still using the datasat ?

Thanks. Yes , I am using the RS20i these days.

Just watched Tron with out any of the gaps sealed in the wall with only 2 connected up and all I can say is "Earthquake". These things are insane, the windows upstairs vibrate on the ULF, which I can only attribute to the actual sound waves. Please remember my house is completely built out of solid reinforced concrete and the thinnest wall is 10" thick, which just goes to show how powerful ULF sound waves are. There is virtually no vibration from the drivers they are that well braced, so I am relieved in that aspect.

I will report back when I have everything sealed.

Here is a quick pic.


Edited by JapanDave - 12/2/12 at 10:38pm
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post #277 of 530
12/3/12 at 8:52am
That's a glorious picture!


Briefly;
Basic premise, EQ all 8 globally, but time align in seperate groups.
If needed, I'd EQ the small sealed for their enclosure size (somewhat of a LT boost), align the two signal groups (the IB drivers, the box drivers) in time, global EQ for the overall room response, adjust low pass of small sealed, if needed for less localization.

It's possible you may need to subtly shift time alignment of box subs if localization is problematic. This is a final step, all other aspects first.


Love that pic, there exhists such an inherent advantage to baffle mounting (ie efficiency, eliminate SBIR, diffraction etc).


Great so far, the optimization is the hard part though, all about methodology.

Good luck
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post #278 of 530
12/3/12 at 9:12am
Wow !! I am so jealous. I not sure I wanna know the price of that Quest setup, be years before i can have something like that.
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post #279 of 530
12/3/12 at 10:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

That's a glorious picture!
Briefly;
Basic premise, EQ all 8 globally, but time align in seperate groups.
Thanks! biggrin.gif
I am not sure I understand when you say "EQ all 8 globally"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Wow !! I am so jealous. I not sure I wanna know the price of that Quest setup, be years before i can have something like that.

Thanks, and Yes, Quested speakers are not cheapest speakers. I can't wait untile I get these sealed up. I just received a box of silicon to seal the gaps in the wall. Then I will start on EQ and that is when the fun starts.
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post #280 of 530
12/4/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thanks! biggrin.gif
I am not sure I understand when you say "EQ all 8 globally"?

What I mean is as a set, all together.

There's many different ways to approach system/room EQ. Typically, I'd recommend you EQ globally once each of the two groups are contoured the way you want them.

Subwoofer drivers often need some boosting of the bottom octaves to overcome the air-spring of the box. Obviously, IB alignments oftentimes need much less of this boost than small boxes, but either way, shape the -3dB point the way you want. Also, if the bass management results in localization issues with the box subs out in the room, then the low pass of that sub group may need some adjustment later.

Now you need to move to the time domain, and assure the box subs and the IB drivers sum maximally in phase throughout their pass-band, especially and most importantly at the upper end of their shared range. Then globally, you align the entire group of all 8 subs to the mains in the time domain. Again, the shared/overlapping range is key here. Then globally EQ the FR output, but only from about 200hz or so downward. Above this point becomes a minefield acoustically, as it transitions out of minimum phase characteristics and we'll leave it at that. Much to complex an issue and I'm not able to articulate it well.

System EQ'ing isn't a trivial endeavor, be methodical and all will be fine. You can't EQ out the nulls, just gently knock down the bumps and the peaks, and use as little EQ as needed for any deviation. With as many LF sources as you have, once the time domain is sorted, you're likely to be quite pleased with the native system response without much global shaping.

Others may have various approaches as well.

On to the baffle wall,...after you seal it up, what's your intention for any covering? I'm guessing Dennis et al, has explained, however you need to be mindful of any small ingongruities, protrusions along the face of your baffle wall. The closer to the LCR elements, the more significant each protrusion. Unless you have a nice smooth, surface, you can benefit from absorption treatment. Felt is ideal is you need surface treatment, foam can be useful too. Often fiberglass duct liner type stuff is used too. Just a polite heads up, and you're likely already on top of it anyway.

Good luck Dave, pics would really be appreciated.

cool.gif
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post #281 of 530
12/4/12 at 2:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

What I mean is as a set, all together.
There's many different ways to approach system/room EQ. Typically, I'd recommend you EQ globally once each of the two groups are contoured the way you want them.
Subwoofer drivers often need some boosting of the bottom octaves to overcome the air-spring of the box. Obviously, IB alignments oftentimes need much less of this boost than small boxes, but either way, shape the -3dB point the way you want. Also, if the bass management results in localization issues with the box subs out in the room, then the low pass of that sub group may need some adjustment later.
Now you need to move to the time domain, and assure the box subs and the IB drivers sum maximally in phase throughout their pass-band, especially and most importantly at the upper end of their shared range. Then globally, you align the entire group of all 8 subs to the mains in the time domain. Again, the shared/overlapping range is key here. Then globally EQ the FR output, but only from about 200hz or so downward. Above this point becomes a minefield acoustically, as it transitions out of minimum phase characteristics and we'll leave it at that. Much to complex an issue and I'm not able to articulate it well.
System EQ'ing isn't a trivial endeavor, be methodical and all will be fine. You can't EQ out the nulls, just gently knock down the bumps and the peaks, and use as little EQ as needed for any deviation. With as many LF sources as you have, once the time domain is sorted, you're likely to be quite pleased with the native system response without much global shaping.
Others may have various approaches as well.
On to the baffle wall,...after you seal it up, what's your intention for any covering? I'm guessing Dennis et al, has explained, however you need to be mindful of any small ingongruities, protrusions along the face of your baffle wall. The closer to the LCR elements, the more significant each protrusion. Unless you have a nice smooth, surface, you can benefit from absorption treatment. Felt is ideal is you need surface treatment, foam can be useful too. Often fiberglass duct liner type stuff is used too. Just a polite heads up, and you're likely already on top of it anyway.
Good luck Dave, pics would really be appreciated.
cool.gif

Ok, I see what you mean now. I was considering going the route you explained, but I was a little unsure as to how to integrate them after treating them as a group. As you already know, the Dirac live EQ is great for designing your own house curve. I am sure you have already seen this, but if you haven't this is what can be done with sub.

The beauty of this software is that you can shape the curve to what ever you want. All you have to do is click on a point on the red line, drag it to where ever you want and it readjust the curve to where you have set the curve at that particular frequency point. You could make it zig zag all over the place, have a bump at what ever frequency you want, it really is limitless.
I borrowed this from Peter (Cineramax)


This a pic of the higher frequency region.


______________

Thanks for the heads up on the wall finish. Dennis has given me instructions on how to finish the wall and it does include absorption. More pics when I get that far.
Edited by JapanDave - 12/4/12 at 2:23pm
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post #282 of 530
12/4/12 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post



That looks goooooooood biggrin.gif
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post #283 of 530
12/4/12 at 3:46pm
I've heard the Dirac system, over a quite nice 7.4 system; Seaton Catalysts, w/4 SubMersives, honestly I didn't care for it until a great deal of additional manipulation was performed. Dirac, it is however an incredible system.
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post #284 of 530
12/4/12 at 4:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

That looks goooooooood biggrin.gif
Thanks!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

I've heard the Dirac system, over a quite nice 7.4 system; Seaton Catalysts, w/4 SubMersives, honestly I didn't care for it until a great deal of additional manipulation was performed. Dirac, it is however an incredible system.
Would that be a Cedia?
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post #285 of 530
12/5/12 at 11:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Thanks!!!
Would that be a Cedia?

Yep, Cedia.

By the end of the evening, the balance warmed up and became much better. Point is, I sure didn't care for the choices made via the software. I don't care for my Audyssey either. I can achieve a much better result myself.
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post #286 of 530
12/5/12 at 5:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Yep, Cedia.
By the end of the evening, the balance warmed up and became much better. Point is, I sure didn't care for the choices made via the software. I don't care for my Audyssey either. I can achieve a much better result myself.
I don't like the sound Audyssey gives in the end. Almost seems flat or maybe a better way to describe it is lacking dynamics.

Dirac is a different animal IME. I am yet to dive deep into EQ'ing using it, but my initial impression with just LCR's and Surrounds was good. The dynamics stayed and the sound stage was good. For someone like you who can actually use software like this, I think it would be even better. Anyways, I am going to be playing around with different settings etc, which should be fun.
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post #287 of 530
12/5/12 at 5:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Hey Dave did you think about back mounting the drivers? I couldn't remember if you had 2 layer baffles or one.

Ricci, I meant to reply to this post earlier, but in the end I could not back mount them if I wanted. I did not have enough room in between the studs at the top and bottom of the drivers.

Cheers.
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post #288 of 530
12/6/12 at 2:30pm
Thread Starter 
What is the consensus on dust getting into the drivers motor? I had cut away some concrete and it made a hell of a mess and even though I had the back of the drivers covered, a fair bit of dust settled on the cage and other parts of the driver.

I cleaned them best I could with a vacuum cleaner and a cloth, but I can't get into the motor. I have also cleaned out most of the dust that has settled now and the cavity is pretty much dust free. But, How do drivers stand up against dusty situations?
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post #289 of 530
12/6/12 at 3:31pm
If it's just fine dust then the XXX motors should do a good job of blowing it out. You could always get a couple of cans of compressed air and try blowing it out that way beforehand
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post #290 of 530
12/6/12 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
I hope it is just dust, as there was little bits of concrete flying around as well. But, that is a great idea, I will do that.
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post #291 of 530
12/6/12 at 4:47pm
Concrete dust and small chunks of concrete all over $8K of the finest IB drivers in the world. eek.gif

Dave, bro .... redface.gif makes me cringe.

Everything's likely alright, but;
I'd carefully, use a shop vac and exercise the motor stroke by hand, allowing the debris to fall down into the vac nozzle. I know they're heavy, but pick the entire thing up and shake them vigorously too,..maybe two of you.

Above all else, do no harm.

Good luck
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post #292 of 530
12/6/12 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Concrete dust and small chunks of concrete all over $8K of the finest IB drivers in the world. eek.gif
Dave, bro .... redface.gif makes me cringe.
Everything's likely alright, but;
I'd carefully, use a shop vac and exercise the motor stroke by hand, allowing the debris to fall down into the vac nozzle. I know they're heavy, but pick the entire thing up and shake them vigorously too,..maybe two of you.
Above all else, do no harm.
Good luck
Thing is , I had them covered b/c taking them down by myself was not an option. I did have them covered, but I am being paranoid to think that a small chunk may have found its way into the motor. And it really is just two of the motors that I am concerned with. I have been doing what you suggested above and I can't feel any resistance , nor can hear any scraping, so I am sure I am fine, I was just mainly concerned with the dust that remains in the cavity when I seal it up, b/c there is no way I can get all of it.
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post #293 of 530
12/7/12 at 9:37am
Cool, prolly no problem.

You may hit them with some signal, and shop vac right up at the motor while they're stroking.
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post #294 of 530
12/7/12 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 
Well I have finally got the wiring sorted for the 3 x 30 amp breakers done today (by a professional), and that will give 180 amp worth of breakers just for the theater. So I will be able to fire up the Lab Gruppen 10000Q into all 4 of these drivers. eek.gif And FOH, I was thinking of doing what you said , slowly increasing the volume just to knock out any remaining dust.

The wall is almost completely sealed , I just have to run a bead of silicon around the center speaker and that is done.

I will also be getting a whole heap of pink batts for the cavity today and the absorbtion material for the baffle wall face as well. So if all goes well I will be done this weekend!!!!cool.gif
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post #295 of 530
12/8/12 at 12:48am
Thread Starter 
Well I fired up all 4 drivers today and good lord, these things are insane!!!!
Played the WOTW pod scene and the drivers are barely breaking a sweat, but the room is just shaking. I think I am going to wait until the wife is out of the house before I explore the limits of these things, but I have a feeling I will reach my limit before they do. Looks like REW is coming back out of hybernation to get some measurements to see how much room gain I am getting. A hell of a lot from what I can tell.
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post #296 of 530
12/8/12 at 5:06am
Yessss!
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post #297 of 530
12/8/12 at 9:32am
That's sounds like an insane amount of fun!
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post #298 of 530
12/8/12 at 4:57pm
Tell us more Dave!
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post #299 of 530
12/8/12 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Tell us more Dave!

I am anxiously awaiting updates too!

You guys and your XXX IB's are making me jumpy. I wish I could do a IB, RE is just down the street from me just teasing me to buy some more XXX's.
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post #300 of 530
12/8/12 at 5:14pm
Thread Starter 
Hard to explain really. I have never ever really felt base like this in this room. I am not sure if it is shaking the floor or just vibration in the chairs. I am guessing it is just shaking the chairs b/c when in other parts of the house nothing is really being transferred into the walls of the house, so the base on the 2nd floor in the kids room is inaudible. The ULF however moves the upstairs windows and I can feel my pants vibrating a little when standing outside the room and outside my house near the basement walls, but the base is inaudible (My basement has no windows and the only openings are a hole in the wall for and exhaust fan and another on the other side of the room where the air comes in) Incredible really as to how the ULF is passing through 10" solid reinforced concrete walls.

Getting back to inside the room, base is just effortless. I have the receiver down 30dB's from when I was free airing one driver through the receiver. I was getting a fair bit of movement to try and see where the drivers limits were, but at 30dB down from there I have a long way to go now that they are in the wall. I just turned on the laptop and it has crashed again, so out to buy a new one today and get REW set up. I will try and get some measurements and see if I can't show you guys what I am feeling.
Edited by JapanDave - 12/8/12 at 6:08pm
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