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7 x RE Audio XXX 18" subs, Infinite Baffle Sub, Ultimate IB build - Page 15

post #421 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The amps on the Cats were just in idle, but after about 30mins working in theater I had unbearable pain in my ears and I started to think I was going crazy and that the room was to blame. That was until I realized that I had the speakers switched on. So I started to do some tests to eliminate what was causing the problems and finally I found that I could not be in the same room with high powered amps. I tested this with other high powered amps and came to the same conclusion."

that is interesting and the first time that i have ever heard of that.

Any time I work on my rack these days it is with ear protection. After being in the vicinity of high power amps (Well the only high power amps I have used are D class and what ever class the Lab Gruppen is), I have a high pitched ringing in my ears and I feel like you do when you have a cold with pressure in my ears. I know I have sensitive ears b/c I can't listen to horns for more 2 mins without the feeling that ears are bleeding. I don't know, it could be the EMI or RFI that is causing the problems.
post #422 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

In the beginning they were great, but every time I watched a movie my ears would hurt for days after even at very low SPL levels. At that time I did not know what it was, I thought I just needed to break in the drivers, but every time I listened to them I would get pain in my ears until I got to the point that 10 mins would be too much. Went to Dr many times and nothing abnormal was found, until one day I was in my theater and I did not realise I have the speakers on. The amps on the Cats were just in idle, but after about 30mins working in theater I had unbearable pain in my ears and I started to think I was going crazy and that the room was to blame. That was until I realized that I had the speakers switched on. So I started to do some tests to eliminate what was causing the problems and finally I found that I could not be in the same room with high powered amps. I tested this with other high powered amps and came to the same conclusion.

So long story short, I can't have active speakers with the amp being attached to speaker itsself. Mark was very good with trouble shooting everything.

This is clearly a Jedi issue... Marks Cat's were altering your force, one midi-chlorian at a time, slowly attempting to convert you from the darkside.

It's either that or you are in fact a cat with the ability to detect frequencies inaudible to the human ear. Tell us Dave, have you ever inexplicabily got a queezy feeling only to turn on the TV to discover you had mere minutes until a tsunami was going to strike the island?

Might have to box you up and ship you off to science for some testing bro...
post #423 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

This is clearly a Jedi issue... Marks Cat's were altering your force, one midi-chlorian at a time, slowly attempting to convert you from the darkside.

It's either that or you are in fact a cat with the ability to detect frequencies inaudible to the human ear. Tell us Dave, have you ever inexplicabily got a queezy feeling only to turn on the TV to discover you had mere minutes until a tsunami was going to strike the island?

Might have to box you up and ship you off to science for some testing bro...

LOL!!! Now if only that were true!!!biggrin.gif
post #424 of 540
Thread Starter 
Finally got some measurements of the 4 subs on the front wall. This is not an ultimate SPL reading, as the subs still have more, I just wanted to take some measurements with the new HDMI feature in REW with a fair bit of power thrown at them. And I had the LP filter set to 80hz.

I have no idea if that waterfall is any good, but it looks like the decay around 25hz is not so good??? But , then again, at 120db , decay is obviously going to take longer.




Edited by JapanDave - 1/23/13 at 6:24am
post #425 of 540
eek.gif That looks insane below 20Hz.
post #426 of 540
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I can definitely feel that in some movies. biggrin.gif
post #427 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

eek.gif That looks insane below 20Hz.

Flat to 2.5Hz...

post #428 of 540
Good thing you are adding three more drivers to help that lackluster low end. Lol
post #429 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Good thing you are adding three more drivers to help that lackluster low end. Lol

Psssstt... He'll need them to address that 1.5Hz cliff he's apparently hiding from us.

Man up and show the full spectrum bro!
post #430 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Flat to 2.5Hz...
Well , I am just glad I reached my goal of flat to 5hz. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Good thing you are adding three more drivers to help that lackluster low end. Lol
Your telling me, I was thinking I may have to add a Rotary sub as well! wink.gifbiggrin.gif Should not be too long now as I am having some more sound proof doors for the basement entrance and for the hallway entrance into the basement. At the moment the base just goes straight through theaters sound proof door (Huh, sound proof doors my ass)
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Psssstt... He'll need them to address that 1.5Hz cliff he's apparently hiding from us.

Man up and show the full spectrum bro!
LOL, If only REW would show below 2hz.
post #431 of 540
Jeezus, 101db at 2hz, and adding another 3 eek.gif I am sooooo jealous right now biggrin.gif
post #432 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Jeezus, 101db at 2hz, and adding another 3 eek.gif I am sooooo jealous right now biggrin.gif
You only have yourself to thank for that!!! tongue.gif;)biggrin.gif

Concrete bunkers are great for base!!! biggrin.gif I am going have to get a vid of my iPad shacking itself off the theaters chairs armrest. Remember solid concrete floor, walls and ceiling, but still enough power to shake the chairs that iPad eventually gets knocked off. (WOTW pod scene BTW) I have 3 butt kickers that I ordered with the chairs that I did not hook up, suffice to say I am selling them if someone wants them. (Never been used)
post #433 of 540
Thread Starter 
A little off topic, if anyone remembers, I still have 4 LMS ultra 18's sitting around doing nothing.

I am contemplating building dual opposed subs for my computer room and one for the living room. Does anyone have any plans that they know of for a really small box?
post #434 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Any time I work on my rack these days it is with ear protection. After being in the vicinity of high power amps (Well the only high power amps I have used are D class and what ever class the Lab Gruppen is), I have a high pitched ringing in my ears and I feel like you do when you have a cold with pressure in my ears. I know I have sensitive ears b/c I can't listen to horns for more 2 mins without the feeling that ears are bleeding. I don't know, it could be the EMI or RFI that is causing the problems.

That's crazy! (I like it!) Care to put yourself up to a blind test?

Here's what you must do. Have your wife blindfold you and let her have her way with your ears and amps (and maybe a few other things too HAHA wink.gif )
Report back how that went... err the amps, that is. tongue.gif (but how to stop the fan noise from spoiling the blindness of the test? hmmm...)
post #435 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

A little off topic, if anyone remembers, I still have 4 LMS ultra 18's sitting around doing nothing.

I am contemplating building dual opposed subs for my computer room and one for the living room. Does anyone have any plans that they know of for a really small box?

Depends on how much power you are sending them but with the LMS Ultra they are designed for about as small as you can physically fit them in. I am guessing you can get away with 6 to 7 cuft boxes for dual opposed, cannot go too small only due to the physical size of the drivers. According to PE the depth of the LMS Ultra is 11.5" so I am wondering what is a safe distance between the 2 magnets in a dual opposed config? This is something I have never really thought of but when dealing with a powerful magnet like the LMS Ultra would they need at least 6" space between the 2? If that's the case then you would already know the depth of the sub to be around 29" but I am just guessing.
post #436 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Finally got some measurements of the 4 subs on the front wall. This is not an ultimate SPL reading, as the subs still have more, I just wanted to take some measurements with the new HDMI feature in REW with a fair bit of power thrown at them. And I had the LP filter set to 80hz.

I have no idea if that waterfall is any good, but it looks like the decay around 25hz is not so good??? But , then again, at 120db , decay is obviously going to take longer.


]

Fun huh? smile.gif

Looks like you have nice acoustics at the listening position. Your electronics look like they go a bit deeper than mine. Mine nose dive off a cliff at about 5-6Hz.
post #437 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Fun huh? smile.gif

Looks like you have nice acoustics at the listening position. Your electronics look like they go a bit deeper than mine. Mine nose dive off a cliff at about 5-6Hz.

Yeah I saw that, there is no way they drop that fast, especially with 8 RE XXX's.

I am using a Sound Devices USBPre2 preamp and a calibrated Audix TM1 mic. They are pretty much flat to 1hz.
post #438 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Depends on how much power you are sending them but with the LMS Ultra they are designed for about as small as you can physically fit them in. I am guessing you can get away with 6 to 7 cuft boxes for dual opposed, cannot go too small only due to the physical size of the drivers. According to PE the depth of the LMS Ultra is 11.5" so I am wondering what is a safe distance between the 2 magnets in a dual opposed config? This is something I have never really thought of but when dealing with a powerful magnet like the LMS Ultra would they need at least 6" space between the 2? If that's the case then you would already know the depth of the sub to be around 29" but I am just guessing.

Sorry Mike , I missed your post.
I will probably get another couple of Real Lab gruppen amps. I was just wondering if anyone had a tried and proven sub design, but as you say I want the smallest possible enclosure I can get.
post #439 of 540
Thread Starter 
Guys , just want to throw something out there. In order to cancel vibration everyone suggests opposing designs. I have been thinking that I could do an 'outie' IB at the back of the room and have 6 drivers instead of 3. Something like this pic below only with 6 drivers not 9. Or I could just go the whole hog and add 9 XXX 18" drivers?

No need for a rotary sub at all. Should get me flat to 1hz.

Thoughts?

post #440 of 540
Always been curious about an IB. I mean if it's so much better why isn't it something everyone does for large rooms especially. Contemplated making a solid door (ThomasW ideas) to replace one near where our subs are now to make a test rig. Been bookmarking the cult page since years ago. Even KW built his "door" on his last bass nirvana. Meh one day maybe. Was thinking 6x IB3 Fi audio 18s, but I've stopped daydreaming after having 2 danley's. Always that "what if" brewing.

Great project you have there and super results thus far.
post #441 of 540
Thread Starter 
I think most people think IB's are too hard to contain the sound. But in reality they are the same a any other sub, unless you have your room completly isolated, that is when an IB will not be so good in regards to stopping sound.

All I can say is that IB's give the ultimate in bass SQ. I won't go back to boxed subs ever.
Edited by JapanDave - 1/27/13 at 2:45am
post #442 of 540
Yeah I'd have to build a test door to see if would like the sound. I guess to some it's possible placement (as with any sub) having a sealed off separate room to backwave into, in combo with cutting holes in your house especially if you don't own it. Guess it's just not for everybody. Wonder if it would have the same feel as 2x dts-10s into the 130s. Damn you guys on AVS biggrin.gif
post #443 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Guys , just want to throw something out there. In order to cancel vibration everyone suggests opposing designs. I have been thinking that I could do an 'outie' IB at the back of the room and have 6 drivers instead of 3. Something like this pic below only with 6 drivers not 9. Or I could just go the whole hog and add 9 XXX 18" drivers?

No need for a rotary sub at all. Should get me flat to 1hz.

That would be nuts dave. But I like it. Would you be able to use the same sructural reinforcement as you front baffle wall? I would think if you added more subs to the rear, than the front, you would have to really lower the level of the rears. I might be wrong though.

Thoughts?


Would you have the ability to support the rear baffle wall? Six or nine more would be cool, but I think it would be sooo much more than you would ever use. On the other hand, it would be unethical of me to not support the addition of more drivers than originally planned. If you build an outie manifold, be aware of suspension noise from those drivers at high output. If I put my head up to my manifolds when they are really pumping, I can hear the air gushing out of the vents in the magnets.
Edited by keager - 1/27/13 at 6:52am
post #444 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Guys , just want to throw something out there. In order to cancel vibration everyone suggests opposing designs. I have been thinking that I could do an 'outie' IB at the back of the room and have 6 drivers instead of 3. Something like this pic below only with 6 drivers not 9. Or I could just go the whole hog and add 9 XXX 18" drivers?

No need for a rotary sub at all. Should get me flat to 1hz.

Thoughts?

Right now you probably have almost enough Vd to get into low single digits. Problem is there's virtually no source material that low (with the exception of a NASA shuttle launch or Tom Danley's fireworks display recording),

Also the vast majority of playback electronics aren't that wide band (remember, 1Hz is only 1 Hz away from 0 Hz, that's DC, and it destroys power amps.

So you'd be building for bragging rights and not much else.......
post #445 of 540
I am jealous Dave! I think you have all the tools at your disposal to implement your idea successfully. If you were to do a dual opposed "outtie" on the rear wall I would recommend making the baffle large enough to mount the drivers with the motor structures inside the rear chamber. This would eliminate any issue with mechanical noise. It would look cleaner in my opinion as well. You could use one or more columns in the rear to further aid in aesthetically blending them into the room. Pairs of columns will also maintain the congruency and existing placements on the front wall. I can't wait to see what you end up doing to an already stellar install.

Chris
post #446 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Guys , just want to throw something out there. In order to cancel vibration everyone suggests opposing designs. I have been thinking that I could do an 'outie' IB at the back of the room and have 6 drivers instead of 3. Something like this pic below only with 6 drivers not 9. Or I could just go the whole hog and add 9 XXX 18" drivers?

No need for a rotary sub at all. Should get me flat to 1hz?

Thoughts?

Dave, I think you should round it off to 12 additional drivers. That way you will able to fully utilize all three additional LG amps you would have to purchase.

16 RE XXX is a nice healthy round amount.

*edit - format error.
Edited by popalock - 1/27/13 at 2:01pm
post #447 of 540
Sounds reasonable...
post #448 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas-W View Post

Right now you probably have almost enough Vd to get into low single digits. Problem is there's virtually no source material that low (with the exception of a NASA shuttle launch or Tom Danley's fireworks display recording),

Also the vast majority of playback electronics aren't that wide band (remember, 1Hz is only 1 Hz away from 0 Hz, that's DC, and it destroys power amps.

So you'd be building for bragging rights and not much else.......
I am really having a hard time understanding where you are coming from? Have I done something to offend you, b/c although you are one of the people who first documenting IB subs and the design/implementation methods, you have offered me no advise what so ever.

So you would say that all those guys with Rotary subs are doing it for the bragging rights? And the whole point of adding more drivers is so that there is not as much load on the amps down in those low digits, is that not a fair conclusion? I am not looking for overall SPL. And as for there not being much content in those areas, there are movies that reach down to 2hz. But the whole point is so that I can apply a house curve into the single digits, as FOH pointed out earlier in this thread, the lower you go the louder it needs to be to be heard.
post #449 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by keager View Post

Would you have the ability to support the rear baffle wall? Six or nine more would be cool, but I think it would be sooo much more than you would ever use. On the other hand, it would be unethical of me to not support the addition of more drivers than originally planned. If you build an outie manifold, be aware of suspension noise from those drivers at high output. If I put my head up to my manifolds when they are really pumping, I can hear the air gushing out of the vents in the magnets.

If I do a 6 driver configuration I can make a manifold like your design (Have the maniflod going into the back room) so the drivers motors are pointing into the other room behind the theater, but the drivers would not be on opposing sides. There would be 3 drivers on the left wall of the manifold and 3 drivers on the back wall of the manifold. Would this cancel vibrations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Dave, I think you should round it off to 12 additional drivers. That way you will able to fully utilize all three additional LG amps you would have to purchase.

16 RE XXX is a nice healthy round amount.

*edit - format error.
LOL, Hmmm , let me think about that.... eek.gif
post #450 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

And as for there not being much content in those areas, there are movies that reach down to 2hz.
For what it's worth, my understanding is that movies are only encored down to 3Hz. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong on that.
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