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Official Sony VPL-HW50ES Owners Thread - Page 37

post #1081 of 3345
Cool thanks for the quotes. I completely missed those posts. Sounds like I might have a winner for "guest" glasses.
post #1082 of 3345
I going to take a ride to best buy and get 2 pairs of the playstation glasses to try them out tonight. At $20 they sound like a steal.
post #1083 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan webster View Post

I going to take a ride to best buy and get 2 pairs of the playstation glasses to try them out tonight. At $20 they sound like a steal.

Check stock first.. There is only 1 best buy in austin that had them when I ordered. I'm assuming other cities are similar.
post #1084 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by natas777 View Post

I had one quick question to everyone in here. Is it normal for the "Film Projection" mode to cause flickering? I only notice it on bright areas of the screen but its is annoying. When I first got the projector installed I was worried that I had a bad unit, the flickering was driving me crazy. I found the Film Projection option and turned it off which corrected the issue.

Yes, Film Projection enables Dark Frame Insertion (DFI) which introduces and incredible amount of flicker for 24p content. For 60p content, the flicker is very subtle & the picture is completely watchable, even for someone very sensitive to flicker such as myself.

The reason Dark Frame Insertion is sometimes desirable is that it helps with motion blur due to 'sample & hold effect' that LCDs typically have (Google for a good explanation). Furthermore, by forcing the liquid crystal arrays to reset to the position for black in between every frame of content, you reduce any image persistence (kind of like ghosting-- material from the previous frame still on screen during the subsequent frame b/c the liquid crystals can't respond fast enough). That also helps with motion blur.

For 60p content, I'm assuming DFI introduces a black frame in between each frame (i.e. playing the 60Hz content back at 120Hz, with every other frame being black). With 24p content, perhaps it's also doing a similar thing: that is, a simple frame-doubling, but inserting a dark frame in between each content frame. In other words it'd be running at 48Hz, but there'd still be 24 dark frames per second, so that's a 24Hz flicker. That might be unwatchable so what it may be doing is frame-quadrupling (96Hz processing):

1-D-1-D-2-D-2-D-3-D-3-D-4-D-4-D...

In which case we'd see a 48Hz flicker... which is still offensive. My guess is that's what's going on with the Sony projector, as 24Hz flicker would be completely unwatchable.

If you disable 24p playback on your Blu-Ray player, and have the player do 3:2 pulldown of 24p content to 60p, then Film Projection doesn't introduce much flicker. But then you introduce motion judder.

I feel like the flicker could be solved by Sony if they had a 144Hz processing mode, which'd introduce 72Hz flicker with 24p content, which should be watchable. In other words, for the first 1/24th of a second, you'd have:

1-D-1-D-1-D (where '1' is the first frame of content)

For the second 1/24th of a second you'd have:

2-D-2-D-2-D (where '2' is the second frame of content).

In other words, each original frame of the 24p Blu-Ray content is repeated 3 times, with 3 dark frames in between.

I don't see what's stopping them from introducing circuitry/algorithms to do that. DFI really helps with motion blur, IMHO, but is unusable with 24p Blu-Ray movies. What a shame.
post #1085 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tothjm View Post

I have another thread open where someone commented about how they cannot play crysis 2 or uncharted 3 because the ghosting is just out of control.... i cant say if they tried the settings i had of 0 depth, and 3 or max on glasses brightness.

Maybe someone can comment on that...

Yeah that was me. All 3D games I own for the PS3 are unplayable on the HW50ES b/c of ghosting.

During the movie/cut-scenes of Uncharted 3, the ghosting gets better if I change the depth setting sometimes. In the game, it's best at depth of 0 (default). Of course, depth should always be set to 0 (explained in detail elsewhere), unless I guess your eye-spacing is vastly different from what the content was optimized for?

I don't know why there's a difference between the cut-scenes & the game content in terms of what depth setting looks best (again, 0 should always look best/optimized).

I just gave up b/c it was unplayable. Perhaps someone with a PC could enable 24Hz mode & load up a 3D game at 24Hz to see if that works better. The chances that someone has this setup are slim, though :-P
post #1086 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tothjm View Post

Sounding like a Sony Fan boy there buddy easy smile.gif

to comment on the Epson Ghosting, i say again... I have paused images, gone up to a 110in picture in 3d, and when you REALLY LOOK HARD for ghosting, it is there, but even what is there is VERY FAINT. The sony you have to try to not see it with certain settings like depth on 2 instead of 0.

Having said that, you can turn the Epson to ANY DEPTH, i believe it goes to + 10, and it DOES NOT CHANGE the Ghosting.. still basically none unless you REALLLY look hard for it. And who says no one should touch the depth on the Sony? I think like the Epson, if they give you the choice, you should be able to change it without making the picture unwatchable, ( again for an MSRP $4000 projector )

I sound like a Sony fanboy b/c I pointed out that you dialed in an incorrect setting and then complained about the picture? The reason you shouldn't use any other depth setting is b/c the L/R images have already been optimized during film production. When you change the depth setting, you're literally changing the offset of the L/R images... which may help ghosting for one element, but add ghosting for another element. The studio should've already optimized the content of the L/R images. I guess perhaps if your eye-eye separation were vastly different than the average, one may benefit from a slight offset of the L/R images... but barring that...

Interesting though that you note the Epson doesn't react poorly to changing the depth setting. If it's offsetting the L/R images in relation to one another, it *has* to affect some ghosting positively while other ghosting negatively (just based on first principles if you think about it). So that confuses me.

It's pretty lame that Sony's trying to push the '3D World' forward, especially with the PS3, but their own projector is completely useless in this regard. While apparently the Epson isn't...
post #1087 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

In other words it'd be running at 48Hz, but there'd still be 24 dark frames per second, so that's a 24Hz flicker. That might be unwatchable so what it may be doing is frame-quadrupling (96Hz processing):

1-D-1-D-2-D-2-D-3-D-3-D-4-D-4-D...

In which case we'd see a 48Hz flicker... which is still offensive. My guess is that's what's going on with the Sony projector, as 24Hz flicker would be completely unwatchable.
IIRC this is exactly what how DFI on the Sony is implemented. It is very similar to a film projector (remember those) running at 24p where the aperture is opened twice per frame.

Yes some patrons were bothered by the flicker of a standard movie projector in movie theaters. On the other hand some movie buffs like DFI because of the sharper motion handling and the nostalgic film projector look.
post #1088 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

IIRC this is exactly what how DFI on the Sony is implemented. It is very similar to a film projector (remember those) running at 24p where the aperture is opened twice per frame.

Yes some patrons were bothered by the flicker of a standard movie projector in movie theaters. On the other hand some movie buffs like DFI because of the sharper motion handling and the nostalgic film projector look.

Ok, thanks.

Just wish they frame tripled & added dark frames to make it 72Hz flicker. 48Hz flicker is annoying (I certainly don't miss it, and I doubt many others do). The motion handling is definitely sharper with DFI on... I've done numerous A/B comparisons.

There shouldn't be any technical limitation to doing this. Unless their electronics only work at certain frequencies, in which case they'd have to be changed.
post #1089 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

I sound like a Sony fanboy b/c I pointed out that you dialed in an incorrect setting and then complained about the picture? The reason you shouldn't use any other depth setting is b/c the L/R images have already been optimized during film production. When you change the depth setting, you're literally changing the offset of the L/R images... which may help ghosting for one element, but add ghosting for another element. The studio should've already optimized the content of the L/R images. I guess perhaps if your eye-eye separation were vastly different than the average, one may benefit from a slight offset of the L/R images... but barring that...

Interesting though that you note the Epson doesn't react poorly to changing the depth setting. If it's offsetting the L/R images in relation to one another, it *has* to affect some ghosting positively while other ghosting negatively (just based on first principles if you think about it). So that confuses me.

It's pretty lame that Sony's trying to push the '3D World' forward, especially with the PS3, but their own projector is completely useless in this regard. While apparently the Epson isn't...

I agree with you on the sony ownign the ps3 and projector, yet the two dont play nice together in 3d lol... is this something you think they can fix in an update? Or this is hardware related?


oddly neough, you can put the Epson all the way up to +10 and while this hurts the hell out of your brain to look at, Ghosting was not affected in anyway... still extremely minimal to non existant\faint

sometimes i can handle the +1 on the Sony for depth, but then as you said, you still get ghosting but i feel it adds a slightly more emersive 3d view than leaving it at 0, though i get your point about the studio setting. Just have to play with it and see what you are willing to deal with. leaving it at 0 will certainly remove all of it but extreme situations in the frame packed content.


so firmware update for this or what?
post #1090 of 3345
Not sure what I am suppose to be seeing but I have a PS3 and the HW 5OES and it looks great in 3D. Just saw Tin Tin animated movie. Will be watching Avengers soon. I'm running this thru a Marantz 8801. Everything in 3D looks great after I got the external emitter to get rid of the synch issues. 2D is outstanding. This is coming from an Epson 1080 UB. It only had about 1200 hours on it (800 on the bulb). Couldn't believe the improvement.

I have a Oppo BDP103 on order and will compare it to the PS 3 when I get it tomorrow.
post #1091 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by satfam View Post

Not sure what I am suppose to be seeing but I have a PS3 and the HW 5OES and it looks great in 3D. Just saw Tin Tin animated movie. Will be watching Avengers soon. I'm running this thru a Marantz 8801. Everything in 3D looks great after I got the external emitter to get rid of the synch issues. 2D is outstanding. This is coming from an Epson 1080 UB. It only had about 1200 hours on it (800 on the bulb). Couldn't believe the improvement.

I have a Oppo BDP103 on order and will compare it to the PS 3 when I get it tomorrow.


how is the ghosting and what type of 3d are you watching... 3d ISO \ 3D blue ray, or a HSBS file ?
post #1092 of 3345
Hi everybody. Today I made my choice. In my short list were BenQ w1070, Epson TW8100/5020, Sony hw50 and Panny AE8k. I decided to go with Sony hw50es.
My screen is ~15 foot wide MW, I'm planning to use it for 2d only. I'm sure everybody will agree that 3D will be unwatchably dim on it. So I'm planning to buy 150-160" 16/9 screen with gain 1.4 for 3D, and hope it will be OK(?)
My throw distance is ~20 foot, and my question is will I have problems with synch? or should I buy an external emitter?
post #1093 of 3345
[quote name="Yusuf.0088" url="/t/1432654/official-sony-vpl-hw50es-owners-thread/1080#post_22861683" I'm sure everybody will agree that 3D will be unwatchably dim on it.[/quote]

why? i heard sony is plenty birght in 3d
post #1094 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

I'm sure everybody will agree that 3D will be unwatchably dim on it.

why? i heard sony is plenty birght in 3d

His screen is huge.
post #1095 of 3345
That's right.
post #1096 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusuf.0088 View Post

will I have problems with synch? or should I buy an external emitter?

Depends. If you will save $$ getting the emitter at the same time go ahead and get it. If not, wait to see if you do have problems. I would guess that yours would be a borderline case and a lot will depend on where/how the projector is mounted and the IR path between the built in emitter and the glasses. Mine is mounted ~16 feet back but only has a 3" drop tube so it is very close to the ceiling. I have occasional sync loss in my limited testing.
post #1097 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by BartMan01 View Post

Depends. If you will save $$ getting the emitter at the same time go ahead and get it. If not, wait to see if you do have problems. I would guess that yours would be a borderline case and a lot will depend on where/how the projector is mounted and the IR path between the built in emitter and the glasses. Mine is mounted ~16 feet back but only has a 3" drop tube so it is very close to the ceiling. I have occasional sync loss in my limited testing.
Well, projector will be on the shelf 6.2 meters from the screen, on 1.3 meters height from floor. Just a bit above my head.
Thanks for advice, I'll wait and see if it has any problem first.
post #1098 of 3345
Just a bit above my head... Wow it's perfect mount for High Power screen. I need think about it.
post #1099 of 3345
I had my HW50 installed in my new home theater a couple weeks ago. Love the 2D quality and the projector is extremely quiet in that mode.

However, I cannot get 3D to work at all. It will not seem to sync with either the included Sony glasses or th XPand universal glasses i bought. I have tried it with my Oppo 103 (Despicable Me) and with the XBox 360 (Arkham City).

I hear the emitter buzz, so I know it is getting the 3D signal, but no sync. I have tried moving around. The projector is ceiling mounted about 15 feet from the screen and the seating is about 12 feet from the screen. But even moving around the room I get no sync.

Thoughts or ideas?
post #1100 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2pitch View Post

I had my HW50 installed in my new home theater a couple weeks ago. Love the 2D quality and the projector is extremely quiet in that mode.

However, I cannot get 3D to work at all. It will not seem to sync with either the included Sony glasses or th XPand universal glasses i bought. I have tried it with my Oppo 103 (Despicable Me) and with the XBox 360 (Arkham City).

I hear the emitter buzz, so I know it is getting the 3D signal, but no sync. I have tried moving around. The projector is ceiling mounted about 15 feet from the screen and the seating is about 12 feet from the screen. But even moving around the room I get no sync.

Thoughts or ideas?

Buy an external emitter. Good luck though, they are back ordered everywhere because it's the same thing everybody else is having to do. I'm still waiting on mine.

You can probably get the glasses to sync if you walk close to your screen and stay standing. At least that's been my experience.
post #1101 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tothjm View Post

how is the ghosting and what type of 3d are you watching... 3d ISO \ 3D blue ray, or a HSBS file ?

I am watching Bluray. Not having any ghosting problems.
post #1102 of 3345
Anyone used Image Director (Sony's Gamma adjustment software) with the HW50 yet? Any tips/suggestions? I have the 3.1 downloaded and a USB to RS232 cable on the way. I have a grey screen and right now my Gamma is almost a straight line from 1.8 at black to 2.4 at white so I want to try to flatten it out at 2.2 all the way across.
post #1103 of 3345
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by satfam View Post

I am watching Bluray. Not having any ghosting problems.
I believe they were referring to 3D gaming on the PS3 rather than movies
post #1104 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Yes, Film Projection enables Dark Frame Insertion (DFI) which introduces and incredible amount of flicker for 24p content. For 60p content, the flicker is very subtle & the picture is completely watchable, even for someone very sensitive to flicker such as myself.

The reason Dark Frame Insertion is sometimes desirable is that it helps with motion blur due to 'sample & hold effect' that LCDs typically have (Google for a good explanation). Furthermore, by forcing the liquid crystal arrays to reset to the position for black in between every frame of content, you reduce any image persistence (kind of like ghosting-- material from the previous frame still on screen during the subsequent frame b/c the liquid crystals can't respond fast enough). That also helps with motion blur.

For 60p content, I'm assuming DFI introduces a black frame in between each frame (i.e. playing the 60Hz content back at 120Hz, with every other frame being black). With 24p content, perhaps it's also doing a similar thing: that is, a simple frame-doubling, but inserting a dark frame in between each content frame. In other words it'd be running at 48Hz, but there'd still be 24 dark frames per second, so that's a 24Hz flicker. That might be unwatchable so what it may be doing is frame-quadrupling (96Hz processing):

1-D-1-D-2-D-2-D-3-D-3-D-4-D-4-D...

In which case we'd see a 48Hz flicker... which is still offensive. My guess is that's what's going on with the Sony projector, as 24Hz flicker would be completely unwatchable.

If you disable 24p playback on your Blu-Ray player, and have the player do 3:2 pulldown of 24p content to 60p, then Film Projection doesn't introduce much flicker. But then you introduce motion judder.

I feel like the flicker could be solved by Sony if they had a 144Hz processing mode, which'd introduce 72Hz flicker with 24p content, which should be watchable. In other words, for the first 1/24th of a second, you'd have:

1-D-1-D-1-D (where '1' is the first frame of content)

For the second 1/24th of a second you'd have:

2-D-2-D-2-D (where '2' is the second frame of content).

In other words, each original frame of the 24p Blu-Ray content is repeated 3 times, with 3 dark frames in between.

I don't see what's stopping them from introducing circuitry/algorithms to do that. DFI really helps with motion blur, IMHO, but is unusable with 24p Blu-Ray movies. What a shame.



sarangiman

FWIW

The Hw30, HW50,90ES and 95ES all do 48hz flicker with 24P in DFI mode

The DFI in the 1000ES do not flicker in 24P mode confused.gif ( just lower the light output in generel ) maybe its doing it at 72 hz or 96 hz ?

But anyway I know its not a consolation for a HW50 owner frown.gif




dj
post #1105 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by lv2pitch View Post

I had my HW50 installed in my new home theater a couple weeks ago. Love the 2D quality and the projector is extremely quiet in that mode.

However, I cannot get 3D to work at all. It will not seem to sync with either the included Sony glasses or th XPand universal glasses i bought. I have tried it with my Oppo 103 (Despicable Me) and with the XBox 360 (Arkham City).

I hear the emitter buzz, so I know it is getting the 3D signal, but no sync. I have tried moving around. The projector is ceiling mounted about 15 feet from the screen and the seating is about 12 feet from the screen. But even moving around the room I get no sync.

Thoughts or ideas?

 

I'm totally speculating here but based on the majority of the posts in this thread as well as the shootout thread, I'm guessing most people with IR sync issues are using a ceiling mount.  I think the IR sensor location for the built-in emitter is less than ideal in this setup especially if the MLP is below the projector or only slightly in front of it as the chassis of the HW50 seems to interfere with a direct line of sight to the sensor.  In this case, you're relying on bouncing the signal off the front wall which is probably hit or miss in most setups.  Just my $.02... 

post #1106 of 3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

sarangiman

FWIW

The Hw30, HW50,90ES and 95ES all do 48hz flicker with 24P in DFI mode

The DFI in the 1000ES do not flicker in 24P mode confused.gif ( just lower the light output in generel ) maybe its doing it at 72 hz or 96 hz ?

But anyway I know its not a consolation for a HW50 owner frown.gif
dj

Interesting. You're absolutely sure the 1000ES does't flicker in 24p mode with DFI on? If so then Sony already figured out how to optimally implement DFI. But then didn't put it into the lower end projectors? Is that a technical limitation, or oversight?

Proper implementation of DFI could be a major selling point for Sony. It essentially allows the projector to achieve near-DLP motion (to my eye, though someone should quantitate this using a motion resolution benchmark/test).

Speaking of motion resolution benchmarks, why can't I find any information on the FPD benchmark disc? I know some people have it, but they won't share how the heck they got it!
Edited by sarangiman - 1/25/13 at 5:18pm
post #1107 of 3345
Request to those HW50 owners experiencing lamp flickering:

Please email installsupport@am.sony.com

... and tell them about your issue. Right now they're 'attempting to recreate the issue in their lab', which is a bit funny. I mean, how are they going to do that? Watch hundreds of hours of content on 20 different projectors trying to look for flicker? It's an intermittent problem, probably only isolated to certain units/lamps.

Anyway, the more people they hear from the more they'll take this seriously.
post #1108 of 3345
Ordered this today should be here by Friday. Anyone wanna share there best mode settings for Reference or should I just use the ones from projector reviews?
post #1109 of 3345
So Mark Haflich confirms that he doesn't see flicker with 24p content & DFI ('Film Projection') on on his VW1000ES.

So is the VW1000ES frame tripling or quadrupling 24p content to achieve 72Hz or 96Hz flicker, respectively?

If so, I wonder why their other projectors aren't doing it properly.

Need confirmation of no flicker from other VW1000ES owners...
Edited by sarangiman - 1/25/13 at 5:06pm
post #1110 of 3345
I would suggest making such request in the Sony 1000 thread,
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