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Help! For Home Theater Martin Logan ESL or Klipsch THX Ultra II? - Page 2

post #31 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

... However, just because it says THX Ultra 2 does not mean it will hit the specs of THX reference levels in every 3000 cubic foot room or bigger with a THX ultra 2 AVR. I can buy a full set of M&K S-150's with a Denon 4311 and never reach THX reference at my seats....!

Fwiw, the Denon AVR 4311 isn't THX ultra 2 rated...
post #32 of 99
Well either way the only AVR that would come close was the 5805, I think that was the model. You still need the proper power and speaker power handling to do it.
post #33 of 99
Thread Starter 
My Final Choice:

- Klipsch RF-7 II Reference Speakers, but in the back i won't use the surrounds, maybe another RF-7 II or similar, and 2 Subs sw115`s.

All of this connected to my Pioneer Sucano SC-LX90. After talking to a technician i will have a performance very much equal with the THX Ultra II set, but if i go to the THX set in terms o estetics is not so beautiful.

My Amp is THX Ultra II and he says it will perform in brilliant way....hope so smile.gif
post #34 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well either way the only AVR that would come close was the 5805, I think that was the model. You still need the proper power and speaker power handling to do it.

The 4311 is rated at 140 watts per channel and it is rated for 4 ohm loads. It does not have the THX modes, but it can handle the low dip of the RF-7's fine. This AVR has higher power handling than some AVR's that are rated THX Ultra 2.
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post #35 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well either way the only AVR that would come close was the 5805, I think that was the model. You still need the proper power and speaker power handling to do it.

The AVR 5805 is THX Ultra II certified and I own the AVR-4806 which is also and it drives my RF-7 based system fine in a 2000 cu ft HT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The 4311 is rated at 140 watts per channel and it is rated for 4 ohm loads. It does not have the THX modes, but it can handle the low dip of the RF-7's fine. This AVR has higher power handling than some AVR's that are rated THX Ultra 2.

The AVR-4311 seems like a good unit and may very well run the RF-7s efficiently, but for an AVR to be THX Ultra II certified it must be able to drive 7 speakers that dip as low as 3.2 Ohms in a 3,000 cu ft room at THX Reference level --If one were to run RF-7s all of the way around that is where the Denon AVR-4311 would come up short, would be my guess.
post #36 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

The AVR 5805 is THX Ultra II certified and I own the AVR-4806 which is also and it drives my RF-7 based system fine in a 2000 cu ft HT.
The AVR-4311 seems like a good unit and may very well run the RF-7s efficiently, but for an AVR to be THX Ultra II certified it must be able to drive 7 speakers that dip as low as 3.2 Ohms in a 3,000 cu ft room to THX Reference level --If one were to run RF-7s all of the way around that is where the Denon AVR-4311 would come up short, would be my guess.
It depends on the sensitivity of the speaker. If you have one speaker that is 90 dB/watt, it's going to take a lot more power to make that one hit reference at the LP than one that is 98dB/watt. An amp is an amp and THX specs are pretty much a waste of time there. The only thing it makes any sense to worry about THX specs is a speaker because that is by far the most critical component of any system. To make any speaker hit reference you need to have the power on tap, and the speaker to be able to handle it without compressing or distorting. Anything else is just window dressing.
post #37 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It depends on the sensitivity of the speaker. If you have one speaker that is 90 dB/watt, it's going to take a lot more power to make that one hit reference at the LP than one that is 98dB/watt. An amp is an amp and THX specs are pretty much a waste of time there. The only thing it makes any sense to worry about THX specs is a speaker because that is by far the most critical component of any system. To make any speaker hit reference you need to have the power on tap, and the speaker to be able to handle it without compressing or distorting. Anything else is just window dressing.

That is only part of the picture and the point you are missing in regard to the RF-7 is the current needed to drive it efficiently...The RF-7 is advertised as a 101 dB/watt speaker but it has a jagged Response curve with dips that go as low as 2.8 Ohms in certain frequencies.
post #38 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

It depends on the sensitivity of the speaker.

^^^

Yeah, that one.

FWIW, my speakers are rated 100dB 1w/1m but personally, I rate them a more realistic 86dB 1w/4m in an open room environment. That said, due to the speaker's efficiency (sensitivity) the speaker system can "easily" be driven to THX reference levels using ~64w; verified using a digital SPL meter. The addition of an outboard Amp such as an Emotive, XPA-5, will hedge the process via the additional headroom an outboard Amp like an Emotiva Amp, brings to the party.

And yes, in my above, I'm very aware there's more to the THX standard then just room SPL.
post #39 of 99
Yes, it depends on the sensitivity and room, how much spl you lose at the LP from the speaker. A 90 dB sensitive speaker can reach 111.5 dBs with that 4311. Now how many dBs you lose will determine if it can play reference, not a THX certification. The higher the sensitivity of the speaker requires much less power. THX reference levels are not easy to hit CLEANLY.
post #40 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

^^^
Yeah, that one.
FWIW, my speakers are rated 100dB 1w/1m but personally, I rate them a more realistic 86dB 1w/4m in an open room environment. .

How did you come up with that measurement? confused.gif
post #41 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes, it depends on the sensitivity and room, how much spl you lose at the LP from the speaker. A 90 dB sensitive speaker can reach 111.5 dBs with that 4311. Now how many dBs you lose will determine if it can play reference, not a THX certification. The higher the sensitivity of the speaker requires much less power. THX reference levels are not easy to hit CLEANLY.

To add to my comment about current/impedance above along with MKs observations, I dare anyone to hook up a lower end AVR with the RF-7s and listen at Reference levels. eek.gif

{Note: I am not referring to the AVR-4311ci}
post #42 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

The AVR 5805 is THX Ultra II certified and I own the AVR-4806 which is also and it drives my RF-7 based system fine in a 2000 cu ft HT.
The AVR-4311 seems like a good unit and may very well run the RF-7s efficiently, but for an AVR to be THX Ultra II certified it must be able to drive 7 speakers that dip as low as 3.2 Ohms in a 3,000 cu ft room at THX Reference level --If one were to run RF-7s all of the way around that is where the Denon AVR-4311 would come up short, would be my guess.

keep in mind the Onkyo TX-SR806 was Ultra II certified and it had hardly any power when connected to a 4 ohm load. Here is an excerpt from Secerts:

"The results in the >6ohm setting are more than commendable for a receiver at this price point, with a special nod to the power delivered into 4ohms, demonstrating that the unit can swing some serious current, at least transiently. The results when the unit was set of >4ohm load are disturbing to say the least, so much so that we must take a bit of a tangent to talk about exactly what that setting does and why it is there.

In a nutshell, it biases the power supply for less voltage and limits output as such. The unit is prevented from dumping any significant amount of current, protecting it from ever going into a thermal meltdown, but consequently (in this case at least) putting the speakers at serious risk of damage from amplifier clipping.

The setting is there for safety reasons: when the governing bodies test an AVR for safety, included in what they do are amplifier tests involving steady state signals driven into test loads. Under such conditions any amplifier gets hot, and when driving a low impedance load it gets even hotter. In the case of just about every AVR on the market it gets too hot to be considered safe so the infamous speaker impedance setting is required: instead of getting hot, the amp's output is limited. The consequences are that the unit is "safe", but underpowered in that setting (grossly so in the case of the 806)."


Here is a link to bench testing of the Onkyo 806: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-sr806-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures Note that the 806 was able to output 79.6 watts into an 8 ohm load with 7 channels driven. While I can't find bench results of the 4311, I did find bench results for the Denon 3312. The 3312 has 79.5 watts with all seven channels driven. http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
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post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

^^^
Yeah, that one.
FWIW, my speakers are rated 100dB 1w/1m but personally, I rate them a more realistic 86dB 1w/4m in an open room environment. That said, due to the speaker's efficiency (sensitivity) the speaker system can "easily" be driven to THX reference levels using ~64w; verified using a digital SPL meter. The addition of an outboard Amp such as an Emotive, XPA-5, will hedge the process via the additional headroom an outboard Amp like an Emotiva Amp, brings to the party.
And yes, in my above, I'm very aware there's more to the THX standard then just room SPL.
only 86 dB's? I know manufacturers fudge specs all the time but that seems to be a rather HUGE discrepancy. Any speaker with a CD mated to a horn should easily be in the 90's. are you sure your measuring technique was good? I'm just curious mind you.
post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

keep in mind the Onkyo TX-SR806 was Ultra II certified and it had hardly any power when connected to a 4 ohm load. Here is an excerpt from Secerts:
"The results in the >6ohm setting are more than commendable for a receiver at this price point, with a special nod to the power delivered into 4ohms, demonstrating that the unit can swing some serious current, at least transiently. The results when the unit was set of >4ohm load are disturbing to say the least, so much so that we must take a bit of a tangent to talk about exactly what that setting does and why it is there.
In a nutshell, it biases the power supply for less voltage and limits output as such. The unit is prevented from dumping any significant amount of current, protecting it from ever going into a thermal meltdown, but consequently (in this case at least) putting the speakers at serious risk of damage from amplifier clipping.
The setting is there for safety reasons: when the governing bodies test an AVR for safety, included in what they do are amplifier tests involving steady state signals driven into test loads. Under such conditions any amplifier gets hot, and when driving a low impedance load it gets even hotter. In the case of just about every AVR on the market it gets too hot to be considered safe so the infamous speaker impedance setting is required: instead of getting hot, the amp's output is limited. The consequences are that the unit is "safe", but underpowered in that setting (grossly so in the case of the 806)."

Here is a link to bench testing of the Onkyo 806: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-sr806-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures Note that the 806 was able to output 79.6 watts into an 8 ohm load with 7 channels driven. While I can't find bench results of the 4311, I did find bench results for the Denon 3312. The 3312 has 79.5 watts with all seven channels driven. http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-3312ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
And that right there is why I am very skeptical of the whole THX certification process.
post #45 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

How did you come up with that measurement? confused.gif

6db loss for every doubling of distance. 1m to 2m and 2m to 4m. A total of 12db loss. On top of that you need to figure power compression loss. That can be anywhere from 3db to 9db. In some cases even more. If you want clean levels, then allow 3db to 6db for headroom. It takes a lot to reach clean reference levels at the seats. much more than most people realize. Most do not realize that their peaks are getting soft clipped. It is not like you can hear it. You would be trying to hear something that is not there. The way that you would be able to tell, would be if you were familiar with the source material and had heard it many times on a system that was capable of clean reference levels.

Not referring to your speakers. RF-7's are certainly capable of reference level. smile.gif
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post #46 of 99
Now we are getting places here. Many people put together systems with best case in mind, like losing 3 dBs rather than 6 dBs, etc....I like to build systems based on worse case and get great results. Too many people assume they will get so much spl from their room and then add multiple speakers to get there and they need to use one speaker and measure it! I measured a 12 dBs loss at my seats from my speakers using a spl meter. When I measured I can see that I lose more of the high frequencies than the lows(80-200hz) which means my treatments are working and absorbing the reflections. Now when I play reference I know I need a speaker to play 117 dBs at 1 meter(specs) to achieve reference in my room. My surrounds need to hit 111 dBs to hit reference at the seats. Now when I look at speakers and THX reference levels in mind I know that many speakers will never do it, including the M&K S-150 which is THX ultra 2 certified and guess what, I have a 2043 cubic foot room. Nevermind 3000 cubes! Of course the Klipsch THX ultra 2 and M&K S-5000 speakers could do it and do it well. The older Triads in room LCR golds could not and they are rated for 116 dBs.

BTW, I think the reference is more forward or bright sounding compared to the Ultra 2 speakers. Using Audyssey or some EQ with wall treatments and proper power should get you excellent results.
post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

only 86 dB's? I know manufacturers fudge specs all the time but that seems to be a rather HUGE discrepancy. Any speaker with a CD mated to a horn should easily be in the 90's. are you sure your measuring technique was good? I'm just curious mind you.

From Klipsch, CS I got the adjustments and from there, as I commented, I took measurements with a digital sound meter during movie soundtrack playback. The conditions were, an Audyssey corrected listening environment of 3,500cuft, volume control of a Marantz, SR5007 set to 0dB during dialogue and action sequences. No readings were made during peak explosions, etc., as at the time, there was only action oriented sound reproduction.

In candor, after a long discussion with Klipsch, describing why I should deduct 14dB for the environment described, that's what I did. I realize there's the world of the anechoic ideal and then there's the open room such as being out on the sandy beach, speakers facing the ocean. In this case our listening environment is a real world living room, main LP is ~11' from the speakers as the room is replete with reflective walls, floors with throw rugs and untreated cathedral ceilings with walls opening up to the front entryway and kitchen on a side wall which, as you know, reduces the sensitivity rating of the speaker accordingly because of sound pressure being bled off.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/11/12 at 1:41pm
post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

From Klipsch, CS I got the adjustments and from there, as I commented, I took measurements with a digital sound meter during movie soundtrack playback. The conditions were, an Audyssey corrected listening environment of 3,500cuft, volume control of a Marantz, SR5007 set to 0dB during dialogue and action sequences. No readings were made during peak explosions, etc., as at the time, there was only action oriented sound reproduction.
In candor, after a long discussion in with Klipsch, describing why I should deduct 14dB for the environment described, that's what I did. I realize there's the world of the anechoic ideal and then there's the open room such as being out on the sandy beach, speakers facing the ocean. In this case our listening environment is a real world living room, main LP is 12' from the speakers as the room is replete with reflective walls, floors with throw rugs and untreated cathedral ceilings with walls opening up to the front entryway and kitchen on a side wall which, as you know, reduces the sensitivity rating of the speaker accordingly because of sound pressure being bled off.

You could have just measured a test tone at 1 meter from the speaker and then at your seat.
post #49 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You could have just measured a test tone at 1 meter from the speaker and then at your seat.

Yes, an excellent suggestion.
post #50 of 99
Thread Starter 
Final Set that i made up decision, and arriving soon smile.gif

- Klipsch RF-7 II (Front)
- Klipsch RF-82 II (Back Surrounds)
- Klipsch RC-64 (Central)
- Klipsch SW115 x 2 (Subs)

Now, i have a SC-LX90 from Pioneer and i am wondering if there is a problem in getting anough power for these speakers?
I think all of them work at 8 oms, i am going to connect them myself, so i want to make sure i won't burn the amplifier in any way. Is there any issue with that?
post #51 of 99
That amp puts out 200 watts per channel at 8 Ohms with 7 channels driven, and 140 wpc with 10 channels driven. You're not going to have any problem driving those speakers to ear bleeding levels. Plus the front channels are stable to 4 Ohm and the rears to 6 Ohm. You have a great, robust amp that isn't going to have any problems. That Pioneer is a monster!
post #52 of 99
The SC-LX90 has plenty of power. You'll be better served picking up a pair of SVS PB12-NSD as opposed to a pair of Klipsch, SW115. The SVS dig deeper and does so with a flatter graph.

IIRC, the SC-LX90, although a heck of an amplifier, doesn't have room correction capabilities and yes, in today's market, that's a huge consideration. I'd say there's zero consideration regarding using this Amp to drive your speakers or worry about burning out the Amp. Being that this unit is THX Ultra 2 Plus certified and Air Studios tuned, one would be hard pressed, at the time of original purchase, to find better.

The point of the above, in your Amp, you have a screaming good amplifier that won't cause you a lick of amplification trouble but without a room analyzing program, in that department, you're on your own.

Hope the above ramblings, helps answer your question.

-
post #53 of 99
Thread Starter 
Tank you so much smile.gif
Yes i am very happy with it smile.gif
post #54 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

That Pioneer is a monster!

The above comment meets the definition of an understatement.

..........................tongue.gif
post #55 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The SC-LX90 has plenty of power. You'll be better served picking up a pair of SVS PB12-NSD as opposed to a pair of Klipsch, SW115. The SVS dig deeper and does so with a flatter graph.
IIRC, the SC-LX90, although a heck of an amplifier, doesn't have room correction capabilities and yes, in today's market, that's a huge consideration. I'd say there's zero consideration regarding using this Amp to drive your speakers or worry about burning out the Amp. Being that this unit is THX Ultra 2 Plus certified and Air Studios tuned, one would be hard pressed, at the time of original purchase, to find better.
The point of the above, in your Amp, you have a screaming good amplifier that won't cause you a lick of amplification trouble but without a room analyzing program, in that department, you're on your own.
Hope the above ramblings, helps answer your question.
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I am going to Klipsch Subs as i want the speakers to match with the subs.
But i was readng about those you told, it looks like an amazing piece... i will consider smile.gif
post #56 of 99
I have full set of Klipsch speakers and a pair of Klipsch SW12 II subs and as soon as I have the available monies, the subs will be replaced with the mentioned SVS subs or if I can, better quality subs. The point, matching the subs to the speakers is not a requirement for musicality nor does matching subs improve acoustic quality. The point, subs are a totally separate issue to speakers and do not need to manufacture match.

Being a purists has it's conflicts. I wish Klipsch made better subs so I could buy manufacture matching subs. I love my Klipsch speaker system and I'd have to spend double what I spent on the system we have to better the sound quality but alas, Klipsch doesn't make better subs. And therein lies the conflict as it's about purity of sound quality, not purity of matching manufactured pieces of equipment. Klipsch knows they don't make the best quality subs and yet, they still keep putting out the same old, inferior quality subs. Shame on Klipsch. OTOH, internet direct (ID) companies put out screaming good subs at, by comparison, screaming good prices. The point, Klipsch's continued loss, will be my continued gain.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/12/12 at 6:29am
post #57 of 99
Thread Starter 
Are SVS better than REL subs?

Because here is Portugal there is no dealer for SVS frown.gif
post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The point, matching the subs to the speakers is not a requirement for musicality nor does matching subs improve acoustic quality.
-

+1 to that, if "matching" means the same brand. However, in terms of performance, "matching" is probably our goal, and is why a brand miss-match sometimes works better.

Would you mind sharing your opinion about what specifically makes the SVS superior to the Klipsch? Just curious, this is not a challenge.
post #59 of 99
Is that Pioneer the same thing as the SC-09? If so then it should have MCAAC which will EQ your speakers. BTW, that is my favorite AVR ever! I am not familiar with those Klipsch subs but I have owned the KW-120's. I assume the KW-120's are their best? If so then these are not as good and a pair of SVS subs should have more spl and deeper at the same time. We would really never know until the klipsch are tested the same way. IMHO it took a $3600 klipsch sub system to slightly better a SVS $1200 sub.
post #60 of 99
It has MCACC it states it in the manual.

http://docs.pioneer.eu/Manuals/SC_LX90_ARB7386_manual/
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