The Expendables 2 with dts Neo:X11.1! - Page 2

Yamaha has had 11.2 in their flagship RX-Z series for years now (at least 6 years, likely more)

it's not 11 discrete channels though, the top 4 corners are presence channels only, digitally matrix'd.

 

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Documents/YEC/Other/Brochure/RXZ11_U.pdf

 

Edited by PioManiac - 11/16/12 at 11:45am

Interesting, does it need another amp for the extra channels, or can it drive all 11?
This mix is not discreet either, its matrixed
Edited by dvdmike007 - 11/16/12 at 12:23pm

It's all internal, 140w/ch for the 7 main channels, 50w/ch for the presence channels.

Pretty sure its discontinued now, never made the jump to HDMI 1.4 for 3D

 

 

I'm pretty sure  Denon has a 11.2 unit as well

 

There are several new 3D capable 9.1 AVR's available with front height channels,

funny thing it's just catching on now...Yamaha started their first in way back in 2004 with the RX-Z9

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-z9-av-receiver

 

 

the latest Yamaha Aventage series RX-A3020 (MSRP $2k)

is 9 channels at 150w/ch internal, expandable to 11.1 (for adding rear height channels) using an external amp.

 

http://ca.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rxa-series/rx-a3020_black_u/?mode=model#tab=product_lineup

 

 

Gimmick? maybe, it's certainly not for everyone...I feel the same about the 3D craze.

The cool thing about all those extra internal amps, they "could" potentially be discrete with a firmware upgrade when content is available,

and extra channels can also be used to power up to 3 additional zones if you don't need 11 in your main room.

Edited by PioManiac - 11/16/12 at 12:54pm

I hope reviewers are equipped to decode the soundtrack properly

I have not read a review yet where the reviewer had a system that could play back this track in 11.1, have you? I would love to read some reviews and get some opinions on how 11.1 in the home actually sounds.

I hate reviews (of discs), but am buying a new receiver next week, and it could be a factor
Edited by dvdmike007 - 11/16/12 at 2:05pm

Yamaha has had the technology for MUCH longer than 8 years going to 2004. First day I fell in love with Yamaha flagship receivers was back in 96-97' when listening to the Yamaha DSP-A1 which had height surrounds and three subwoofer outputs. In fact, this was called an 'integrated receiver' because it didn't have an AM/FM tuner. Lol.

Anyway... gimmick? Sorta but Yamaha has some of the best DSP out there and I kind of like the sound of them.


They haven't and I wasn't expecting to see any. Hell, even here in the AVR section there are several people who have the capability that rarely seem to discuss it much.

I've had nothing but Yamaha AVR's since the 90's as well (about 7 of them so far ) and they have always been excellent.

I use the front presence channels for better front sound stage on Bluray concerts/music vids where rear surrounds are not important.

 

From what I've been able to find on DTS NEO:X

its actually a standard 7.1 configuration with a pair of front wides and a pair of front height speakers

 

http://www.dts.com/professionals/sound-technologies/audio-processing/dts-3d-audio.aspx

 

There are plenty of people utilizing front height channels already, or wides but not sure about both simultaneously for 11.1

 

If anyone has a unit out capable of decoding and amplifying 11.1, My best guess is to look to Denon and Marantz, Yamaha and  Onkyo

if they don't have one on the shelves already, it's probably on the bench soon to be released to the public.
 

I can do 9.1 with my Onkyo TXNR3007. With Audyssey DSX and PL2z I can have height channels or wides with DSX. Supposedly I can disable my rear surrounds and have a 5.1 system but with heights and wides using DSX but I'd rather keep the rear surrounds.

Pretty sure the Denon 4311 can do it too. Both the Denon and Onkyo require an extra amp for an extra two channels.

Just a note that the rental discs for Expendables 2 are in Dolby Digital 5.1.

Seriously.

Given what this job/hobby pays, running out and buying new equipment each time there's a jump in tech isn't remotely possible.

This is the new trend for Lionsgate unfortunately. I believe this makes the third release in a row from them where the rental versions only have lossy audio.

So does anybody with a Neo:X enabled receiver get this to work on theirs?

I have a Denon AVP-A1HDCI upgraded model with neo:x but it dosen't work, it looks like the limitations of the AVP that only non DTS-HD signals can be decoded with Neo:x....

Are you sure your AVR is "upgraded" for neo:x? The only info I can get on this is that this receiver (pre/pro) can be upgraded for Audessey DSX, not DTS neo:x. If I'm wrong, I apologize...

The movie worked great on my system. I've got a TX-NR3009, hooked up with heights and wides. The opening battle scene was incredible sound wise. The movie pretty much sucked though.

This thread is chock full of misinformation and conjecture. There are several receivers on the market capable of neo:x and Audessey DSX, some a couple years old already. Some of the older ones only let you have either heights or wides, not both. Mine and two others from Onkyo last year will let you have any combination of two out of: heights, wides, or rears. You can't have all three together. There are at least three of this years, Onkyos TX-NR 3010, TX-NR5010, and the TX-NR818, that let you have all 11 channels as long as you provide an added stereo amp. I believe the Denon AVR 4520CI also lets you have all 11 channels with an external two channel amp.

DTS neo:x, as well as Audessey DSX, (I prefer neo:x) IMHO provide a much more immersive movie experience than regular 5.1 or 7.1. The matrixed channels are done very well. Prior to these two DSP's release, I always had Yamaha AVR's due to their "Presence" channels. Added width and height to the front soundstage adds a lot to a movies soundtrack as far as I'm concerned.

Like 3D, eleven (or more) speakers isn't for everyone. It is for me. I'll keep adding speakers as long as they keep adding channels. I wouldn't touch 3D with a 10 foot pole.

Yeah I got 9.2 running out of my upgarded model and the Neo:X only works on Core DTS, not any HD-DTS signals....
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1006957/official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-and-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread/23880#post_22612499

The 4311 doesn't have Neo:X but its replacement (4520) does. As does the Onkyo 818.

DTS Neo:X encoded content, like the 'Expendables 2' blu-ray, cannot be decoded correctly with Dolby PLIIz nor Audyssey DSX nor Yamaha DSP modes.

Is it a printing error?
I thought you *need* 7.1 in order to upmix to 11.1?
DTS Core supports only up to 5.1 channel, 24-bit/48KHz @ 1.5Mbps. Anything else, it's an extension to the core track. (Eg. DTS-ES)

I dunno, tried everything on my AVP and it just won't work.

Just popped the Expendables II into my 11 channel system DENON 4520 based system...
The bass is very solid, surrounds all in action, but bear in mind it's not really 11 channel on this discs, it's matrixed.

There is no lights for DTS Neo - X...

It's a very cursory comparision, but IMO, I prefer Audyssey's flavor to DTS Neo-X. There is more side action with DTS Neo-X, but the enveloping experiences seems more with Audyssey and doesn't try to bring attention to individual speakers.

When Neo:X is used as surround processing, it can be applied to any number of source channels (from 2.0 to 7.1) when scaling to 11.1 outputs.

The only time you *need* 7.1 channels is when Neo:X is used in an encode/decode scheme, and that too only for height channels. Height information starts off in discrete channels, but since it isn't currently possible to deliver it that way, height information has to be matrix encoded into the mix. Neo:X encoders do this by splitting that info to the front and surround-back channels of a 7.1 mix. Upon playback, Neo:X decoding looks for information that is common to the front and surround-back channels, extracting those particular sounds and sending them to the height speakers.

Since discrete 5.1 soundtracks don't have surround-back channels, they can't carry Neo:X encoded height channels. That's why 7.1 sources are needed.

We need something like Dolby Atmos for the home, though the processing power and the disc space needed may be prohibitive. Plus, you'd need sound engineers and studios to start using object oriented discrete mixing techniques. If it can't be done in the consumer sphere, then a lossless 11.1 (or more, if possible) discrete audio format should be made available on 4k Blu-ray. Then have them follow the Atmos speaker layout recommendations. At least that would beat having matrixed channels.

Is atmos a matrix?

I was just going to post in with that tidbit!...seriously, describes it pretty well. What possible reason would make any sense for making DD the only soundtrack on a BR movie this day and age?! That is just pure, weapons-grade A$$H0L3 for whoever created this disc.

Atmos is totally different than a traditional soundtrack. Each sound in the movie is discretely stored with a desired location in the room at very point in time. Realtime processing uses whatever speakers are available to produce each sound in an attempt to place it in the correct spot in the room. Not really the purpose of this thread but I think Dolby's website has more info.

Ah yes, I had read that thanks for the refresh

There is a sound check on the disc, under Extras.
It's a discrete 11 channel test.
All 11 channels are there, but I think Audyssey calibration and DTS Neo-X don't combine well.

The Wides leak into my side surrounds. The rest of the channels are discrete and easy to find where they are.

I don't think 11 discrete channels are possible since the Blu-ray Disc (and HD DVD) spec top out at 8 discrete audio channels max. Anything beyond 7.1 is matrixed in, not discrete, which is why you might hear leakage into adjacent channels.

Neo:X encodes Wide channel content by splitting it into the Front and Side channels. Upon playback, those sounds are extracted and sent to the Wide speakers. If you don't have Wide speakers, then those sounds will phantom image between the Fronts and Sides (where the Wides would have been). Why would room correction and matrix decoding not "combine well"? They're totally different technologies; one shouldn't interfere with the other.