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From endless contemplation to fruition: James' First DIY 18" Sub. How low can you go...$-wise?

post #1 of 195
10/9/12 at 7:45am
Thread Starter 
EDITED: went with the new Dayton 18" in a sealed cab. Trying to do this for ~ $275

Bit of a change up here for me, tell me what you think, pros.

Prolly gonna just keep my Cap and perhaps add a second down the road for my eventual (lol) larger room.

That said, I'd like to have something to keep me busy during these fall Wisconsin months, so I've considered building a couple CHEAP subs for near-field fun. Who knows what tomorrow, never mind 3 years will bring, but I can always find a deserving home for these down the road with my brother or friends, if need be.

I have a Crown XLS 1500 laying around for 500+ watts per channel @ 4 ohms so I was considering picking up something like this if you men deem it to be a good value at $199: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-420

I've seen more than a few builds with it around here so I'm assuming it's a pretty solid choice. (?) If not, please advise.

What am I looking for? I dunno, lol, perhaps a bit of room smoothing for now and a little spice in the near-field? I'm not expecting to lower my ~15 hz in-room response, but opinions on the "best/most appropriate" cab would be appreciated. If there's one available from PE I wouldn't object to picking that up and spending my time on the finishing side of things.

Seeing I already have the power, I'd like to think I can build myself a pretty nice little sub for ~$300.

Any advice as to how I could perhaps do a bit better while staying at or below that mark would be appreciated!

again, gracias. biggrin.gif

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 10/10/12 at 12:41pm
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post #2 of 195
10/9/12 at 7:51am
Thread Starter 
And man, the thought that one could potentially build FOUR of these and power them with (2) XLS 1500's at 500+ watts a channel for about $1700 (or even less if you build your cabs)- all new- is a testament to DIY!


James
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post #3 of 195
10/9/12 at 8:10am
These are pretty good for the money.
Type R 1522D

The titanic is ok but I actually like the cheaper Dayton RS15's better than it.
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post #4 of 195
10/9/12 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
thanks for the advice.

These, correct:

"HF" : http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-468

"HO" : http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-469

First, do you have a preference between the two above, for any particular reason(s), if I may ask? Don't know how it all comes together, but the Titanic seems to have superior xmax, power handling (than the HF at least, although I realize this may mean very little) sens, etc, but if these are better performers at a reduced cost, then of course! Your selection appears to be better constructed, possibly?

thanks again!

James
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post #5 of 195
10/9/12 at 8:36am
On paper....They do have a new 18" for $250. I like the HF better out of the 15's. I'd probably buy the Alpine myself though.
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post #6 of 195
10/9/12 at 8:44am
Thread Starter 
thanks and I trust your judgment, but I was hoping to get away with a grill-less cabinet and the alpine is a bit tacky for a living room. I suppose adding a grill wouldn't be the end of the world, but is performance of the alpine that appreciable over the HF?

James
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post #7 of 195
10/9/12 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 
Following your lead, I would think it would stand to reason that this is a pretty good quality 18" driver for the $: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

A smaller sealed box would be nice too...BTW, is a smaller sealed box an option with the HF and HO 15"? I'm imagining (hoping) so, but all I seem to find are ported designs...perhaps for home theater (read MORE output) apps?

James
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post #8 of 195
10/9/12 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

On paper....They do have a new 18" for $250. I like the HF better out of the 15's. I'd probably buy the Alpine myself though.

Pretty much this. The HF version of the Dayton 15" has a very extended response both downward and upward. The one thing that really isn't good is that it doesn't have a lot of output capability. Most people using these as their main subs would build several of them. Often at least four of them at a time.

Welcome to DIY, MM.
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post #9 of 195
10/9/12 at 9:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Pretty much this. The HF version of the Dayton 15" has a very extended response both downward and upward. The one thing that really isn't good is that it doesn't have a lot of output capability. Most people using these as their main subs would build several of them. Often at least four of them at a time.
Welcome to DIY, MM.

yeah thanks Scott, I've had a few false starts but I think this is finally it. A low cost, straight forward box that I'm not married to and can easily "gift", sell-off, or use elsewhere = win. I'm glad I seemed to have "guessed" right with a starting point for the driver...I was concerned that there had to be better buys elsewhere, but these drivers really look like they bring good performance for sub $200.

Lemme ask you guys, if I'm using Audyssey XT 32 (some love it, some loath it, lol) am I in a bit better position to go with the higher output "HO" or are the driver limitations impossible/very difficult to overcome even with high-end EQ? Will the integration of my Cap help in this regard? I'm not all about ouput, but I'd like to have the most I can so long as I don't have significant linearity issues.

Last do we think the 18" is worth the extra $50? I know we don't have a lot of info on it yet, but I'd be willing to roll the dice if we thought it a safe bet. (?)

thanks. Finally, a project I can move forward with without wringing my hands!

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 10/19/12 at 11:33am
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post #10 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:01am
The HO model actually has less output down low. It just is able to work well in a much smaller enclosure but at the cost of low end output. The HO's are more-so suited for car audio but they could very well used for HT. It's not usually the first choice unless priority is definitely towards making a small subwoofer instead of just a well rounded subwoofer.

Using Audyssey XT32 wouldn't make much difference, imo.
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post #11 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:10am
Thread Starter 
^ Gracias...the "4 layered voice coil and greater power handling" can be hard to ignore, lol.

Can I plop this in a sealed box? I have a bit of size restriction, is why I ask. If so, approx size, or is that easily found on the PE site, somewhere?

Then, when I do have Audyssey calibrate it and my Cap, it (Audyssey) wont necessarily have any ideas about its limitations (other than it's -3db point), so how do I "protect" it during reference'ish level kind of playback? Simply back it off "x" number of dbs in the channel +/- menu?

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 10/19/12 at 11:33am
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post #12 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:27am
Of course! The Dayton Reference series models best in sealed alignments.

To protect the driver, just don't overpower it too much and if you do build sealed, design for excursion control. For the 15" HF you're looking at roughly a 3.5cuft enclosure with 250w or so. Driver excursion will always be safe all the way down to even 3hz or so. smile.gif Though your Crown amp will filter below 8hz iirc.

What kind of size restriction do you have?
Edited by Scott Simonian - 10/9/12 at 10:34am
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post #13 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:28am
Only thing with going small sealed is that you basically have to use EQ to boost the low end up and no I don't think the auto EQ programs in recievers get it done right alone. Do you have some sort of EQ device already? Otherwise you may be underwhelmed by the low end.

What size of enclosure do you feel is reasonable? Give us some dimensions to work with.

The Alpine will be more rugged and have more excursion than the Daytons. It will be more tolerant to abuse. They also can sound good too. Maybe not quite as extended as the Dayton HF but they aren't bad. Yeah the cone is tacky looking. You could always take some solvent and a rag to it and scrub the logo off.
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post #14 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Of course! The Dayton Reference series models best in sealed alignments.
To protect the driver, just don't overpower it and if you do build sealed, design for excursion control. For the 15" HF you're looking at roughly a 3.5cuft enclosure with 250w or so. Driver excursion will always be safe all the way down to even 3hz or so. smile.gif Though your Crown amp will filter below 8hz iirc.
What kind of size restriction do you have?

Most of the sealed 3.5 ^3 boxes seem well within it....~20" X 24" x 18" ???

The Crown puts out about ~500 into 4 ohms, so I think I should be fine. I have an MIC 2200 if I need an HP, but I should be fine in that regard going with sealed, correct, just keep the power in check?

Again, my concern is keeping it "safe" during more spirited playback vs my Cap.

James
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post #15 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Only thing with going small sealed is that you basically have to use EQ to boost the low end up and no I don't think the auto EQ programs in recievers get it done right alone. Do you have some sort of EQ device already? Otherwise you may be underwhelmed by the low end.
What size of enclosure do you feel is reasonable? Give us some dimensions to work with.
The Alpine will be more rugged and have more excursion than the Daytons. It will be more tolerant to abuse. They also can sound good too. Maybe not quite as extended as the Dayton HF but they aren't bad. Yeah the cone is tacky looking. You could always take some solvent and a rag to it and scrub the logo off.

Definitely would be an issue with the HO model but I'm not sure about the HF. It has a very low natural F3. Not that having the EQ capability would hurt though.

Also, the Alpine could be concealed with a typical cloth style "grill" if you didn't want to look at it.

Definitely need some space requirements here. Chop chop! biggrin.gif
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post #16 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:38am
Thread Starter 
Ricci:

I have the Berry MIC 2200, but my thought was that Audyssey will boost/cut to the calibrated -3db point...but this is prolly where you're not crazy about its abilities (amongst others, perhaps)?

James
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post #17 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Most of the sealed 3.5 ^3 boxes seem well within it....~20" X 24" x 18" ???
The Crown puts out about ~500 into 4 ohms, so I think I should be fine. I have an MIC 2200 if I need an HP, but I should be fine in that regard going with sealed, correct, just keep the power in check?
Again, my concern is keeping it "safe" during more spirited playback vs my Cap.
James

If you use an enclosure that size, I don't believe you would need a HPF whatsoever. I'd turn it off completely but that's me.

Having this single 15" keep up with your Cap at all will probably be the only real issue.
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post #18 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:39am
Thread Starter 
Let's say a 2' cube, ball park, gang.


Would something like this do me right? Shame it seems to be perpetually "un-orderable', lol. smile.gif http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-1/35-sub-flat-pack.html

James
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post #19 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:43am
Thread Starter 
Ok, so then let's say then I go with a 3.5 ^3 sealed box and the 500 watts from the Crown. During "reference" level playback, nothing changed, does the Crown simply "run out of gas" trying to reproduce the signal from my AVR- thus the driver is "amp limited" ? But I've always wondered about the clipping going on within the amp...surely that's not great for other loudspeaker drivers/components, what makes the sub so special? tongue.gif

As you can tell, I'm completely putting the cart ahead of the horse with this entire "integrating 2 subs with differing capabilities" spiel, but heh, that's my style. tongue.gif;)

James
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post #20 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Let's say a 2' cube, ball park, gang.
Would something like this do me right? Shame it seems to be perpetually "un-orderable', lol. smile.gif http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-1/35-sub-flat-pack.html
James

2' cube is ~170 liters or 6cuft. Excursion damage could be a real issue with 500w on tap. A HPF would be advised in that case.

The listed flat pack looks perfect though and would safe you from having to do any cuts. tongue.gif
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post #21 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, so then let's say then I go with a 3.5 ^3 sealed box and the 500 watts from the Crown. During "reference" level playback, nothing changed, does the Crown simply "run out of gas" trying to reproduce the signal- thus the driver is "amp limited" ...but I've always wondered about the clipping going on?
As you can tell, I'm completely putting the cart ahead of the horse with this entire "integrating 2 subs with differing capabilities" spiel, but heh, that's my style. tongue.gif;)
James

Both driver and amplifier limited. The Captivator is a vented 18" amiright? I'm not sure if you have an active or passive version but either way the Cap will have much greater total displacement and will easily outgun a single sealed, low excursion 15" driver. A quad set of these sealed Dayton 15HF's would keep up but just barely.
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post #22 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:48am
Thread Starter 
Funny thing is I could find a wheelbarrow full of gold bricks before I found another reasonably priced 3.5 ^3 pre-fab box on the www. Spose' that's why the initiative started.


James
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post #23 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Funny thing is I could find a wheelbarrow full of gold bricks before I found another reasonably priced 3.5 ^3 pre-fab box on the www. Spose' that's why the initiative started.
James

Can't build one yourself, eh? Even with out the major tools you might be able to go to a lumber yard or other wood supplier and see if they will do the major cuts for you. Then you just take it home and glue it all together.
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post #24 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Both driver and amplifier limited. The Captivator is a vented 18" amiright? I'm not sure if you have an active or passive version but either way the Cap will have much greater total displacement and will easily outgun a single sealed, low excursion 15" driver. A quad set of these sealed Dayton 15HF's would keep up but just barely.

Right re the Cap. I have the ported with a proven 2k W's on tap and a ~17hz HP.

What I'm asking is: what's going to happen to this Dayton and/or Crown amplifier when I reach reference-level on the dial during huge bass scenes? The Crown won't deliver enough power to destroy it (the driver), but isn't pushing the amp into clipping harmful enough on its own?


James
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post #25 of 195
10/9/12 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Can't build one yourself, eh? Even with out the major tools you might be able to go to a lumber yard or other wood supplier and see if they will do the major cuts for you. Then you just take it home and glue it all together.

No, I absolutely can...just have to get my newly broken circular saw up and running...or borrow one. I'm always concerned about external dimensions, internal bracing subtracting from internal volume, driver displacement...you know all the stuff that requires a bit of planning. smile.gif

I suppose there's a straight forward 3.5 box design lurking on the www somewhere.

James
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post #26 of 195
10/9/12 at 11:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Right re the Cap. I have the ported with a proven 2k W's on tap and a ~17hz HP.
What I'm asking is: what's going to happen to this Dayton and/or Crown amplifier when I reach reference-level on the dial during huge bass scenes? The Crown won't deliver enough power to destroy it (the driver), but isn't pushing the amp into clipping harmful enough on its own?
James

Is this 15" subwoofer going to be closer to your listening position than the Cap? If so, as long as it can do reference (or whatever you listen at) at your seat, there shouldn't be anything to happen besides bass. Otherwise it will simply not reach reference and still you may not notice. The driver will get more power than it needs so you may have the amp clip just as the driver runs out of steam. You'll notice and that's where you are out of output. Build a second. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

No, I absolutely can...just have to get my newly broken circular saw up and running...or borrow one. I'm always concerned about external dimensions, internal bracing subtracting from internal volume, driver displacement...you know all the stuff that requires a bit of planning. smile.gif
I suppose there's a straight forward 3.5 box design lurking on the www somewhere.
James

Copy the design from the link you posted. There really isn't much to building a sealed box. Most people tend to WAY over do their 'bracing' and all that anyway.
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post #27 of 195
10/9/12 at 11:15am
Thread Starter 
Yeah, pretty much. Sure I can cut 6 panels to the same dimensions, just wondering how much differing internal bracing will affect performance?

James
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post #28 of 195
10/9/12 at 12:39pm

Or build a ported 18 with one of these.  I don't know of anyone doing a build with them yet but they look like a nicely built driver.  I'd pick it over the titanic 15 if I were building something like that, but the titanic is a good deal at 199.

 

IDK, the RMS rating on your amp but youd prob be ok bridging into the 4ohms?

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post #29 of 195
10/9/12 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Or build a ported 18 with one of these.  I don't know of anyone doing a build with them yet but they look like a nicely built driver.  I'd pick it over the titanic 15 if I were building something like that, but the titanic is a good deal at 199.

IDK, the RMS rating on your amp but youd prob be ok bridging into the 4ohms?

You link, Nick, is to his last post. tongue.gif I'm assuming you mean one of those Stereo Integrity 18" subwoofer drivers that don't really exist yet?

Probably not the best choice. wink.gif
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post #30 of 195
10/9/12 at 5:39pm
Woops, thanks Scott.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472
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