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My TD12M/SEOS-12 build - Page 7

post #181 of 238
for high power applications, the crossover is almost always the limiting factor.

getting it out of the way reduces power compression and some changes in frequency response as the spl increases.

if they exist, there may be advantages in remvoving large inductors from the woofer circuit too.

one advantage of passive networks is the incredibly high sensitivity of compression drivers is padded down
to match to the mid/bass drivers. this has the benefit of minimizing noise that may be present in the system
whether caused by the amp or by a poor signal chain component selection/setup.
post #182 of 238
Thread Starter 
Had a little bit of time and tried to run REW, but ran into some problems. First RF remote is acting up. Does not look like it is a battery problem. I have ordered replacement. Second I was having a problem getting my computer to recognize the HDMI connection. Since my equipment is remote located, 20' HDMI is always a pain on the input side of my AVR. Ran out of time. Will have to put screen back and try again later. frown.gif
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post #183 of 238
Bummer Mike. Strangely enough, the HDMI connection was about the only thing that was working right for me when starting up REW. smile.gif
post #184 of 238
Thread Starter 
I have used REW in this setup before, but for some reason it is hard to get it to connect up with my laptop. I am using a 22ga. 20' HDMI cable from laptop to AVR. AVR is located in the room below the theater.
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post #185 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I have used REW in this setup before, but for some reason it is hard to get it to connect up with my laptop. I am using a 22ga. 20' HDMI cable from laptop to AVR. AVR is located in the room below the theater.
I've only used rew with external USB interface (from home studio) and rca connectors. I know there may be more noise involved, but works well for me and can have easy connections and long runs.
post #186 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

I've only used rew with external USB interface (from home studio) and rca connectors. I know there may be more noise involved, but works well for me and can have easy connections and long runs.

I used to use that setup for REW with a MIC2200 and I still have all the stuff, somewhere. smile.gif I went to the HDMI solution for the convenience or at least I thought it would be more convenient. smile.gif
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post #187 of 238
Thread Starter 
Left speaker in room 1M. No Audyssey, 1/6th smoothing and using Tux's settings. Using 80hz crossover and ran the signal from 70hz to 20,000hz.
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post #188 of 238
Thread Starter 
Left and right speaker. 1/6th smooth, active using Tux's settings, no Audyssey. Measured in room at 1M.
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post #189 of 238
Forgive my ignorance here Mike but is the dip focused at ~120 and ~2K room related?
post #190 of 238
The 2khz dip should not be room related because he measured 1m away. I'm looking at my settings right now to see if something has been missed.

Here's the predicted response.



Mike, looking at how I worded my settings, did you use 1,300hz or 13,000hz on that tweeter eq?


EDIT - unless the speaker or mic or close to a boudary. That could cause a dip there.
post #191 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The 2khz dip should not be room related because he measured 1m away. I'm looking at my settings right now to see if something has been missed.

Here's the predicted response.



Mike, looking at how I worded my settings, did you use 1,300hz or 13,000hz on that tweeter eq?


EDIT - unless the speaker or mic or close to a boudary. That could cause a dip there.

I used 1,300. I wondered about that, but the first two were not in order, so I was not sure. Here is where I copied and pasted your settings:

Woofer
LR4 (linkwitz Riley 24db/oct) @ 1000hz
No delay
No level
No eq

Tweeter
BW2 (butterworth 12db/oct) @ 1700hz
Level = -11db
Delay = 0.22ms
Eq
3500hz, -5.0db, q = 0.8
2300hz, -2.0db, q = 2.0
8000hz, -2.0db, q = 1.0
1300hz, +2.0db, q = 1.5
19,000hz, +6.0db, q = 1.0 (optional)
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post #192 of 238
Thread Starter 
I will change the 1,300 setting to 13,000. Then I need to remeasure. The back corner of the right and left speaker are against my front wall and the speakers are 20" from a side wall, but they are toed in so much, that I doubt the side wall is having much effect on the upper end.
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post #193 of 238
No, 1,300hz was right. I just wondered if you read it as 13,000hz.

It could be floor bounce because the waveguide wouldn't have much control there and it's the same for both speakers.. Did you save the measurements?
post #194 of 238
Thread Starter 
Made some adjustments. 1M measurement, no Audyssey and 1/48th smooth.



Here it is 1/6th smooth.

Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 6/14/13 at 9:28pm
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post #195 of 238
Thread Starter 
Here is left with 5db scale. I have it +/- 2db from 350 to 18K.


Changes that I made. I changed the 1,300 to 13000hz, +2.0db, q = 1.5
Changed 2300hz, -2.0db, q = 2.0 to 1,950hz, 4.0db, q=3
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 6/14/13 at 4:37pm
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post #196 of 238
Those look like good adjustments. Ill send you a PM in a bit.

The XO is at 1100hz, so above about 1700hz you can eq however you please to make it flat. Ill pm some ideas anyways though. It looks like the drivers sum well around 110hz so that's the important part.
post #197 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by filtor1 View Post

Forgive my ignorance here Mike but is the dip focused at ~120 and ~2K room related?

120hz would be room related, but not the 2k dip.
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post #198 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

120hz would be room related, but not the 2k dip.

Mike,

I might have missed it; but is that last graph with Aud on or off? Reason I ask is; Aud creates the exact same dip at that frequency in my room.
post #199 of 238
Interesting BA. Maybe they find listeners prefer a dip there. I personally wouldn't, but some like that smile type eq.

The dip could be a reflection. The measurement conditions aren't exactly ideal.
post #200 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Mike,

I might have missed it; but is that last graph with Aud on or off? Reason I ask is; Aud creates the exact same dip at that frequency in my room.

Audyssey is off. Will work on the response from 350hz and down today.
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post #201 of 238
those big dips around 120hz or so are likely 1/4 reflections.

changing position, adding baffles, etc, may help eliminate them.

likely targets are rear wall, side wall, and floor.

boundaries ~2.5 feet cause cancellation at ~120hz, the more the merrier.

the suckout at 280hz could be from floor bounce. that one will suckout at 1/2 wavelength differential distance.
so if you are sitting at about 3 feet ear level and about 8-9 feet from the speakers, you'll get a cancellation
around there.
post #202 of 238
Warning! Don't address sub-350hz using that measurement. Gotta use the LP measurement for that.
post #203 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Warning! Don't address sub-350hz using that measurement. Gotta use the LP measurement for that.

That is what I did. smile.gif Glad I made the right decision.


Since it is all about the room, once you get to the lower frequencies, I figured EQ from the main listening position would be required. Not perfect, but looks pretty good to me. This measurement was made at main listening position, 10.5' from the speaker. No Audyssey.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 6/15/13 at 2:55pm
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post #204 of 238
Looks really good to me.

Note the little bit of excess SPL at 2khz? Now I'm suspicious the 2khz dip was a wall reflection. If you reduced that 1900hx eq you made by a couple db, I would bet it you be an improvement.

Now you're really showing the power of active. Measure, program, listen, measure, program, listen, = world class sound.
post #205 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Looks really good to me.

Note the little bit of excess SPL at 2khz? Now I'm suspicious the 2khz dip was a wall reflection. If you reduced that 1900hx eq you made by a couple db, I would bet it you be an improvement.

Now you're really showing the power of active. Measure, program, listen, measure, program, listen, = world class sound.

Yeah, I really like what you can do with this. I have it working very well, even with my equipment remote located. I Have an active USB cable run to the room. I use it to connect my laptop to the MiniDSP 10x10HD and the 20' long HDMI cable to send the REW signal to my AVR. I can work it all sitting right there in the room. As long as this system is reliable, I doubt that I ever go back to passive.
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post #206 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Yeah, I really like what you can do with this. I have it working very well, even with my equipment remote located. I Have an active USB cable run to the room. I use it to connect my laptop to the MiniDSP 10x10HD and the 20' long HDMI cable to send the REW signal to my AVR. I can work it all sitting right there in the room. As long as this system is reliable, I doubt that I ever go back to passive.

Other than changing oxer frequencies at will; what's really the difference between this and a passive setup? I wouldn't mind picking up a 10x10 to integrate into my system, and don't see why you couldn't accomplish the same thing.
post #207 of 238
Well he's now able to integrate his room eq and also adjust the FR for a very flat response. Once its done its set and forget, just like passive. But passive cant do the room or get quite as flat (usually).
post #208 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Other than changing oxer frequencies at will; what's really the difference between this and a passive setup? I wouldn't mind picking up a 10x10 to integrate into my system, and don't see why you couldn't accomplish the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Well he's now able to integrate his room eq and also adjust the FR for a very flat response. Once its done its set and forget, just like passive. But passive cant do the room or get quite as flat (usually).

On top of that I get a lot more out of my wattage. An active system is two to three times more efficient.
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post #209 of 238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post


On top of that I get a lot more out of my wattage. An active system is two to three times more efficient.

Which is probably irrelevant to most people as these things are already efficient as hell. I'm hooked up to an Outlaw 7125, and there is no way I could get even close to reference for an extended period of time as it is.

In fact, due to their crazy efficiency; I didn't notice much, if any, difference between running off my 3009 and the Outlaw (as far as dynamics are concerned).
post #210 of 238
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Which is probably irrelevant to most people as these things are already efficient as hell. I'm hooked up to an Outlaw 7125, and there is no way I could get even close to reference for an extended period of time as it is.

In fact, due to their crazy efficiency; I didn't notice much, if any, difference between running off my 3009 and the Outlaw (as far as dynamics are concerned).

I am a little lost. I don't know what high efficiency (sensitivity) has to do with not being able to listen at reference level. Clean reference level is clean reference level, does not matter if the speaker has high sensitivity, medium sensitivity or low sensitivity. Of course high sensitivity makes it easier to get to clean reference levels. If it sounds harsh as you approach reference, then that is the speaker, the response, the room, the material or some combination.

For movies I have no problem listening to my system at reference level. The transients seem to be better running active and it sure was a lot easier to get a nice slightly downward tilt to my response and I am not having to use any room correction. Because of the slight downward tilt, is probably why I can listen at reference level. With movies, -5db below reference does not even seem loud at all.

I have measured (when I had JTR T8's) and my room loses around 6db moving from 1 meter to 2 meters. I lose 9db for distance and I need to allow 3db for clean headroom. That means to reach reference, my speakers need to be able to put out 117db. Not going to do that using an AVR even with speakers that have pretty good sensitivity. Rather than argue about if you need the wattage, I will let Tom Danley's post speak for me: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1189404/danley-dts-10-super-spud-diy-kit/210#post_17409024 I am looking to put 300 watts to my woofers and 100 watts to my compression drivers. I will say, reference level sounds much better with my current speakers, compared to my old JTR's.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 6/17/13 at 10:03pm
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