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LCD motion blur: Eye-tracking now dominant cause of motion blur (not pixel persistence) - Page 5

post #121 of 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

CROPPED_LightBoost50-1024x341.jpg

At 120fps@120Hz, a 1/30second camera exposure captures 4 refreshes. All 4 refreshes are stacked on each other, because the pursuit camera is moving in sync with the 120fps@120Hz moving object at a 1/30second camera exposure. The brief backlight flash prevents tracking-based motion blur.

There is extremely little leftover ghosting caused by pixel persistence (virtually invisible to the human eye), since nearly all (>99%+) pixel persistence ghosting & overdrive artifacts are kept unseen by the human eye, while the backlight is turned off between refreshes. The backlight strobe flash length, measured to be 1.5ms by TFT Central, is more than 90% shorter than a 60Hz refresh (16.7ms). The LightBoost 10% setting uses 1.5ms strobe flashes, while the LightBoost 100% setting uses 2.4ms strobe flashes. This is still greatly shorter than even a 120Hz refresh (8.3ms)!   As a result, motion clarity on a LightBoost monitor is comparable to a CRT display.

Observe the leftmost end of the bottommost image. You do see a very faint dot to the left of the line of white dots (in the red base). That's an example of the tiny remnant pixel persistence the human eye sees. This pursuit camera photographic proof, proves that the vast majority of pixel persistence (roughly ~99%) is successfully hidden from the human eye -- completely unseen by the human eye.

Please explain these physics.
I have sent you a PM to the Blur Busters Motion Tests, with a VIP invite.[/quote]

Couple of verifications I need:

1. Is the camera a film or digital? This by itself doesn't necessarily matter at all, but I'd like to know. Discrete mechanisms (even when assuming a wide open shutter for 1/30th of a second) can cause beat frequencies against each other depending upon exactly what is being done to cause the 1/30th of a second effective shutter. Even CCD and CMOS arrays are scanned internally I think, so I'm simply curious about that.

2. When the backlight strobe length is measureed by TFT central is that for the entire frame, or is that for each of the individual pixels. That is, is it possible in this scenario for the pixels to be flashing for a much shorter time than the entire frame seems to be? Is the top of the frame drawn and kept there while the rest of the frame is drawn as well, or does it have a much briefer strobe to it?

All that aside, isn't what you just shown proof that by limiting the pixel persistence you get a clearer picture?
post #122 of 127
Thread Starter 
Contrast-enhancement of LightBoost photograph, showing ultra-faint pixel persistence that's still seen by human eye. It's almost below the noise floor. Most of the pixel persistence (transitions and overshoots) are hidden during the time period the backlight is turned off.

faint_pixel_persistence-246x300.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

1. Is the camera a film or digital? This by itself doesn't necessarily matter at all, but I'd like to know. Discrete mechanisms (even when assuming a wide open shutter for 1/30th of a second) can cause beat frequencies against each other depending upon exactly what is being done to cause the 1/30th of a second effective shutter. Even CCD and CMOS arrays are scanned internally I think, so I'm simply curious about that.
The camera is a Casio EX-FC200S. Any common film or digital camera can be used; they all yield the same motion blur result at the same camera exposure, if you properly synchronize the camera motion to the moving-object onscreen (within accuracy of +/-1 pixel during the duration of the exposure). I've confirmed there's no difference. Also tried an old Panasonic Lumix.
Quote:
2. When the backlight strobe length is measureed by TFT central is that for the entire frame, or is that for each of the individual pixels. That is, is it possible in this scenario for the pixels to be flashing for a much shorter time than the entire frame seems to be?
At the LCD panel level, the pixel transitions are taking longer than the backlight flash. However, the pixel transitions are taking place in the dark. Marc Repnow (scientist) reversed engineered LightBoost, and found it uses a vertical blanking interval of approximately 5 milliseconds. See his discoveries as well as his HardForum post. (Frames are buffered in order to allow accelerated scanouts, in order to have a long blanking interval). The refresh is scanned out fast (top-to-bottom) in total darkness, to allow a bigger idle time period between refreshes.

5ms -- backlight turned off; LCD is being refreshed in total darkness. Pixel transitions is occuring in the dark.
2ms -- backlight turned off; idle period, to wait for the last pixel transitions to settle in total darkness.
2ms -- backlight flash; fully refreshed frame seen by human eye.

This corresponds to one refresh cycle (8.3ms) at the 120Hz refresh. During longer strobe flashes, the backlight flash actually overlaps the next refresh slightly, causing slightly increased ghosting at the edges of the screen (a few percent more visible, only on the top/bottom 10% of the screen, and not objectionable). During shorter strobe flashes, the backlight flash completely fits within artificially-lengthened blanking interval between refreshes. Thus, by this technique, a good strobe backlight on a fast LCD, bypasses greater-than-99 percent of pixel persistence from becoming visible to the human eye.

There is definitely some vertical non-linearity in ghosting; e.g. top and bottom edges have more remnant pixel persistence than the center of the screen. That's an unavoidable situation caused by the top-to-bottom scanout of LCD, versus the all-at-once stroboscopic flash. But this no longer a motion blur bottleneck, unlike scanning which still has unavoidable light leakage between backlight segments (on vs off segments). Only strobe backlights (given a sufficiently fast LCD) currently make possible unbounded improvement in motion clarity.
Quote:
All that aside, isn't what you just shown proof that by limiting the pixel persistence you get a clearer picture?
Therein lies the confusion. The LCD has the same pixel persistence, during all these photographs. It's a photo of the same LCD. The LCD isn't accelerating pixel transitions by 10x. (But yes, it's accelerating the top-to-down refreshing, but the individual pixels still take the same amount of time to transition). The backlight is simply hiding the pixel transitions, simply by being turned off between refreshes.

There is little difference in the LCD panel's ability to change the speed of pixel transitions (overdrive tweaks) in the photographs between 60Hz versus 120Hz versus LightBoost. All of the photos were taken using the same camera on the same computer monitor. The law of physics in the LCD remain the same; it doesn't transition pixels faster between the 120Hz versus 120Hz LightBoost (aka the pixel persistence, from the point of view of the LCD law of physics, is unchanged). Marc Repnow mentioned to me that if you open up a LightBoost computer monitor and force the backlight to continuously shine during LightBoost mode, the motion blur instantly comes back -- including pixel persistence/overdrive artifacts -- which immediately comes back and becomes far more visible to the human eye. Further proof that the backlight being turned off, is successfully hiding pixel persistence. This A/B test of overriding the strobing, proves this.

The fact that the backlight is able to eliminate motion blur in this A/B test, also proves the following:
Quote:
Recently, with today’s faster LCD’s, pixel persistence now only has a minor factor in motion blur.

Edited by Mark Rejhon - 5/19/13 at 7:18pm
post #123 of 127
Let's take this offline (off thread) for now. It requires way too much back and forth here to be productive, and I'm very interested in a bunch of what still seems vague. We'll chat soon! Thanks for the PMs.
post #124 of 127
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Let's take this offline (off thread) for now. It requires way too much back and forth here to be productive, and I'm very interested in a bunch of what still seems vague. We'll chat soon! Thanks for the PMs.
I prefer to educate hundreds of people publicly in public forums and blogs (efficient education), so I prefer not to educate one person privately (inefficient education) (unless it's paid work, of course!)

If sending PM, please keep your questions short enough that I can reply to them in less than 5 minutes. Otherwise, I prefer to discuss publicly.

I hereby invite you to do the following steps:
1. Buy a LightBoost monitor. Supported monitors are listed in the LightBoost HOWTO.
2. Download a motion test such as PixPerAn. (Or use Blur Busters Motion Test if you have an account).
3. Run the motion test. Observe the motion blur with your eyes.
4. Enable LightBoost.
5. Run the motion test again. Observe the lack motion blur with your eyes. The ghosting/overdrive almost completely disappears*

*Some LightBoost monitors (e.g. VG278HE instead of VG278H) don't do as good as job at eliminating visibility of pixel transitions (e.g. 95% gone instead of 99% gone). I also have a BENQ XL2411T, which does an excellent job of hiding pixel transitions.

If you want to actually run a true scientific A/B test with exactly the same LCD refresh pattern (the LightBoost-tweaked overdrive algorithm), then do this too:
6. Open the LightBoost monitor and make the backlight shine continuously while in LightBoost mode.
7. Run the motion test again. Observe the return of motion blur (and ghosting/overdrive artifacts) with your eyes. (unchanged LCD panel pixel persistence)
8. You can run A/B test by disconnecting/reconnecting the backlight strobe feature, while keeping the LCD panel refresh behavior unchanged. Even while the monitor is still running!
9. Observe that whenever the backlight continuously shines, there's a lot of motion blur and ghosting (like regular 120Hz). But if you let the backlight strobe once per refresh, the motion blur (and most LCD transition artifacts disappear -- including most of ghosting/overdrive disappearing).

This proves: "Recently, with today’s faster LCD’s, pixel persistence now only has a minor factor in motion blur."
For Blur Busters Blog purposes, "LCD pixel persistence" means "physical pixel transitions within the LCD panel, independently of whether backlight is ON or OFF". Some sites, including prad.de and PixPerAn, has tended to use this terminology. Others standardize on "pixel transitions" terminology. If this is the confusion, then now we're clear!

That's all, folks. I gotta focus on family and work!
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 5/19/13 at 2:45pm
post #125 of 127
Thread Starter 
Confusion is resolved over PM.
"pixel" = A single controllable LCD element; independently of whether it's seen by human eye or not (e.g. backlight turned off)
"pixel persistence" = The transitions of an LCD element from one state to a different state; independently of whether it's seen by human eye or not (e.g. backlight turned off)

These terminologies has precedent:
"pixel" can be used from the perspective of a digital technology, e.g. an array of CCD pixels, even if the CCD chip is not currently capturing pictures, or when an LCD is not currently visible (e.g. backlight off).
"pixel persistence" has long been used in many contexts, such as PRAD's Pixel Persistence Analyzer.

That said, Blur Busters is going to address this to fix potential terminology confusion, such as posting of a Blur Busters Glossary Page, to keep things consistent. The phrase "pixel response time" is more common nowadays, and may be clearer.

"Recently, with today’s faster LCD’s, the LCD panel's native pixel response time now only has a minor factor in motion blur"
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 5/19/13 at 7:25pm
post #126 of 127
^what he said. smile.gif.

Yeah, it's a good idea to start with known stakes in the sand. I was trying to come up with various symbolic ways of representing this stuff, but it's been done 100 times already I'm sure.

The confusion came in (in my case) because of backward comparisons to CRT persistence of phosphor, which by itself is a crummy analogy because in the CRT case it is the only thing remotely synonymous with "pixel persistence" and being based upon phosphor excitation always refers to light flying out. So Mark was referring to LCD element state with or without light and I thought he was referring to the pixel as viewed (with light coming out of it). LCD element persistence perhaps? "Response time" is also well known as you pointed out.
post #127 of 127
Thread Starter 
What's so exciting to me about LCD today, is that it became possible for motion clarity of LCD to become unbounded from LCD's own panel limitation (provided certain stringent requirements are met). When these requirements are successfully met, the LCD panel's native pixel response is no longer has a factor in motion blur. Pixel transitions completed in total darkness, all the way to below human vision noise floor at normal viewing distances, before the backlight is strobed.

By effective purposes (to the human eye vision), it becomes a true impulse driven display to the human brain. Doesn't matter if parts of the technology is intrinsicially unavoidably sample-and-hold (NRZ), due to the teamwork between the LED backlight & the LCD panel, is all that matters.

That said, other limitations apply (e.g. imperfect black levels are an unavoidable limitation, and faint vertical non-linearities in picture quality due to different ages of pixel transitions, due to the LCD scan-out versus full backlight strobe). Some of the transitions are faintly visible, as seen, and some GtG are worse than others, but are otherwise impossible to see in most scenery (ultra-faint 3D crosstalk too). There can be interplay between the strobing and LCD inversion, causing amplified inversion artifacts (but not on all LightBoost monitors; it's a non-issue on the XL2411T, while far moreso on the VG278HE). Also, some LightBoost monitors are better than others. Older LightBoost monitors such as XL2420T, have more visible ghosting, while newer ones like VG248QE, can have nearly perfectly hidden pixel transitions (at least across a large middle band across the screen, with slight faint ghosting at top/bottom edges).

The pursuit camera photos truly show how successfully the panel's own pixel transitions can be hidden. For many competitive FPS video gamers, the remaining (and created) artifacts are not issues.
Edited by Mark Rejhon - 5/21/13 at 7:55am
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