Official Epson Home Cinema 3020 Thread - Page 19

No, you got it pretty good. The box that houses is overly large where my projector will be (up the line, there are more ducts necessitating a bigger box). There's plenty room in the duct box to fit the projector without moving the duct, I just need to build an enclosure. It would do two things, 'hide' the projector for a cleaner look, and move it back 16" to extend the throw distance.

OK Talked with Epson Advance Tech Support:

One they are looking into the 2Dd to 3D conversion problem with the warped lower part of the left eye field.

Two: The 3010 and 3020 lamps have normal life and are not failing faster than normal.

Rich
Edited by racprops - 2/27/13 at 5:39pm

Speaking to the lens shift (or lack thereof) on the 3020, that's the one thing I did *not* like about it. In fact, I came very, very close to not buying the unit for this reason alone. I use a 120" screen that comes down to about 18" off of the floor, and thus the top of the screen is roughly 6.5 feet above the floor, or 3.5 feet down from my 10-foot ceiling. I really liked that my old projector could be one foot from the ceiling--well out of range of the random "bump". With the 3020 and my setup, the lens center has to be an inch below the top of the screen. If not, the projector has to be angled down, making the image wider at the bottom and narrower at the top. Same with side-to-side. If it's not perfectly centered, you'll has one side being wider on one edge than the other. Careful measurement avoids this side-to-side problem, but it does stink having to hang your projector down so far from the ceiling if you have a semi-high ceiling. And, of course, with lens shift you can make minute adjustments to center everything perfectly without skewing the image. Thus--I think lens shift is an important feature, and I feel it ought to be on all projectors even though you set it and forget it. Just like focusing... set it and forget it.

As for keystone correction, if I understand how it works correctly, it essentially deletes portions of pixels thus "compressing" the image on the top or bottom to take the skew out of it. Although I've heard some projectors do it better than others, I've never seen one where it wasn't noticeable. Some look absolutely horrendous even with minor correction. IMHO, they ought to outlaw keystone correction...!!!!! I'd much rather have a 3.5' ceiling mount than use keystone correction (but... lens shift would have been very nice!!!)

With that said... I have seen some reviews of this projector mentioning the 3020 "defocusing" when the unit heats up. They recommended waiting for the unit to heat up and THEN focus it. That way, although the unit will be out of focus for 5 mins or so after being turned on, it will come into focus thereafter. I haven's had a problem with this at all (nor was it difficult to focus, although the focus slider is sensitive). Has anyone had a problem with the unit changing focus as it heats up? I just wonder if it's a bug they fixed.

Keystone has its place, although like you I would avoid it if at all possible. However, some people are simply incapable of lining a picture up correctly without it.
It has a place on cheap business projectors that has various people setting them up, auto-keystone based on an accelerometer is better than looking at a distorted rectangle in this setting.

I actually did resort to using digital keystone once with my 3010 -- was using the projector at a family member's house for group viewing and there was no possible way to get the projector in the right place with no lens shift and get it to be viewable from the sofas/chairs (I know, here I'm agreeing with you, I'd prefer if it had lens shift). There were also some small children so I couldn't put the projector near the ground. We watched both 2D and 3D movies and it handled it pretty well with digital keystone correcting from projector from probably 30 degrees or so off to the side. I was thinking the 3D couldn't possibly work well, but it worked fine and their screen was smaller than I'm used to (maybe 100"), so the reduction in resolution wasn't that noticeable (we watched Pirates of the Caribbean and Tangled both in 3D, so one animated and one live-action). I could notice the lower resolution, but they all insisted they couldn't.... some people are always more picky than others.

" I was thinking the 3D couldn't possibly work well, but it worked fine and their screen was smaller than I'm used to (maybe 100"), so the reduction in resolution wasn't that noticeable (we watched Pirates of the Caribbean and Tangled both in 3D, so one animated and one live-action). I could notice the lower resolution, but they all insisted they couldn't.... some people are always more picky than others."

As tech I need to point out the SIZE of a picture does not change the resolution: A 19 inch screen can be 1080I and a 200 inch screen can display 1080I.

The major difference is the SIZE of these 1080 pixels, which will be very small and close together on the 19 inch and vary large on the 200 inch screen.

This size of the pixel is why they are now working on the newer super size new picture system with a reported 2X/4X finer resolution.

The early Projector systems that simply enlarges the old 450 line TV picture and of the old picture tube dot matrix were SO had to watch with the scan lines and large dot size, which were a crappy pictures just made bigger and much more visible.

I get a kick out the called for viewing distance: The closer you set the more of the picture elements that create the picture you can see.

I can also get so close to my 120 inch screen for the projector I can see the pixels that make up its picture.

I have a very high resolution 22 inch monitor and can get VERY close to it BUT I can get so close I can make out Its 32 dots per inch screen.

They tell you to set back from the screen, and it seems that no mater what size screen, be it 22 inch or 120 inch: at the suggested viewing space you get just about the same size picture in your eyes...(one that you do not need to move your eyes side to side to see...)

Too close can be like some old theater screens front seats..too close and all you see is the film grain...(Film grain is like our electronic picture pixel system: film grain makes up the picture we see on the film. film used to be rates by IT resolution, IE 100 and up to 1000 grain...and frame size like 35 mm to 70mm)

I really got a BIG LOL with the early Cinerama Theaters, (remember the BIG very CURVED Screens??) The idea was for the screen to warp AROUND you and the put you RIGHT in the Middle of the action (like Disney's old 360 sound theater)..and they then put the big seats, the extra cost seats IN THE BACK....out side the curve.

The best seats were in the MIDDLE ot about the 10Th row...which in 1977 was THE place to watch Star Wars at the Cinerama Theater, these seats put you right in the middle of the action. (at first they showed 35MM film and you could really see the film grain (made the desert scenes look real...) but shortly they had the better 70MM film...(more than double the grain resolution!!)

I have rated a modern TV system by rather I could see film grain while watching films on it.

Loving the Cinerama experiences is why I have wanted a large projector system and have watch the progress to 1080I systems and how I hope to be able to get the newer 4X and LED lighted projectors of the near future.

My 2 cents worth.

Rich
Edited by racprops - 2/28/13 at 6:12am

That's a good point, when I said the time I used digital keystone with 3D the size was smaller, I should have specified that the relative size was smaller -- I don't know why I specified 100" was smaller without saying the seating was also further back from the screen.. The resolution does not change from screen size, obviously, but the resolution where you start seeing diminishing returns (little to no improvement when increasing it) changes based on the relative screen size. My point on the 3D was that I was surprised that the digital keystone + 3D did not have more dramatic degradation of the quality than I observed.

The actual size of the pixel doesn't really matter, what matters is the relative size of the pixel determined by the actual size of the pixel and viewing distance.
Well I'm under 30 so I can't say I've been to a cinerama... I'd like things to move to 48fps though (or higher) and 4K resolution, but I think it will be a while before we'll move past the 1080P/blu-rays -- it took long enough to move from 480P dvds to 1080P.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the film is shot with digital cameras, there is no such thing as grain anymore.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the film is shot with digital cameras, there is no such thing as grain anymore."

Your so right....

Rich

Exact same with me, had an 8350 and enjoyed the screen a little lower down allowing you to look directly ahead at the center, yet the projector mounted close to ceiling. Oh well, had to put the screen higher up with the 3020, and re-adjust the stops! Better than digital corrections!

I am in a standard house with 8 foot ceilings and mounted my screen with hooks just about 6 inches down. (Hooks, "D" Rings and cylinder for the screen..so the top of my accrual screen is about 6 inches from the ceiling)

I then set the picture just a little above my center of vision so for me it feel more like going to the movies, and so when I recline my feet they are not in the pictures so to speak.

PS On the warped left field screen in the 2D to 3D conversion I have been told one of their top advance techs is looking deeply into the problem and as soon as he has figured it out (firmware/hardware update/repair or no repair) I will get a call.

The also said the lamps used in the 3010 and 3020 are very good and do not fail early and thus there is no extended coverage for them. Bewarned.

Rich

Actually, digital video can suffer from "gain" - which looks very similar to film grain. In a lot of cases, to me, excessive gain looks worse than film grain.

For digitally shot projects you will notice noise from excessive gain in dark shots or scenes - in a similar way that film grain is most obvious in darker situations. A lot of low budget films and projects will exhibit this . . . this is because sometimes camera operators have to use gain (electronic amplification of the video signal) to get enough light into the lens. A lot of low-budget shoots don't have the time and money for expensive lighting set-ups, so they do what they can to "get the shot" on a shoe-sting budget with less than ideal lighting scenarios. Very often a lot of gain is applied . . . which is exactly the same as choosing a high ISO number on a digital still camera.

I work as a camera operator, and the goal is always to use the lowest amount of gain possible to avoid images where the blacks are "crawling with noise".

A lot of digitally shot films can look plenty grainy - even if the project didn't originate on film.

Ian

I got the exact same setup. Not too high at all even @ 12-13' from screen.

OK Here is the reply from Epson:

"There are no known issue with the lamp or the life, this is the same lamp used in the PL HC 3010 and they are well over a year old now with a very low failure. Due to the nature of UHE lamp technology some lamps can fail prematurely.

As for the warped 2D to 3D conversion in the left field, this is a normal artifact of the conversion process. We are taking a 2D image and giving it depth, in order to do this we are superimposing 1 image on top of another. the "warp" you are seeing is part of the second image that gives the 1st image depth. It is specification and nothing can be done to correct it. You may also see it on the right side or not at all, the artifact you are seeing may vary based on the content that is being converted to 3D.
As long as you do not see this artifact with Blu-Ray or Broadcast 3D the hardware is OK."

OK NOW we need the opinion of you guys.

It he telling it like it is or blowing smoke??

Do any of the other 2D to 3D convertor system do things like that?

Rich

My opinion is that 2D to 3D conversion is at best a novelty, it is something I will not use, and you should not spend any more time worrying about it

Perhaps it is: but it is one that they charge for and list as a feature of the projector and which has a couple a controls adjusting it for best effect, and all of that is a waste if it cannot be watched due to distortion.

If the other 2D to 3D systems have distortions than it is part of the conversion system.

IF the other system do not distort then I have been lied to and this should be fixed.

It was a selling point to me.

One of the reasons I bought it.

Rich

It's pretty much what i would have expected from Epson. No way would they admit there is a problem as this would mean there is a fault that needs to be rectified. By looking at Epsons response I would say it's a built in hardware fault that all 3d units may have. It's very noticable on a windows desktop, not so on actual movies. Not only does one image look curved, but it also seems to have some corruption/noise.
What we need is a poll to see if everyone suffers or if it's just certain models or units.
Edited by ashyt16 - 3/2/13 at 11:06am

very close to pulling the trigger on a Home Enema 3020. However, I'm very curious, after going thru this thread, have many here aquired the 3020e version? How well, or stable, does the wireless HDMI connection function? This feature seems very convenient, not having to physically route a long HDMI connection around my walls (and expensive HDMI cable itself). I'm looking at 30ft-plus cable.

Although I'm one to favor a hard connection over a wireless connection, especially in a critical situation as this- ie. potentially losing video stream, etc.,... So is this wireless HDMI feature worth the additional cost?

Appreciate your input.

Home Enema?

Clearly he means Epson...or it is a pun.

Rich

No, I'm sure it was a typo. I thought folks would have a sense of humor on Saturday morn.

I do: which why I suggested a pun...

You have to have a sense of humor when Epson clams a major flaw is a feature...

I am trying to get more posts, granted a 2D to 3D will not be fantastic BUT I kind of expected something more like these reviews:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1454894/3d-sets-that-convert-any-movie-to-3d

Rich

a typo. Or freudian-slip? Or possibly just saturday morning comedy ..............

Anyway, was hoping someone has input on the 3020e model

anyway. looks like the 3020e is out-of-stock just about everywhere right now, I think that should confirm to me that this model is very well-functioning. I'm gonna go for it.

I was also considering the BenQ W1070, but I'm feeling the Epson (3020e) yields better performance for the cost

Is there no way to set up a poll as a new thread?
Infact I'd like to see a poll for all the problems people have been experiencing with the 30,50,60, 10 & 20 line of projectors so we can see how many people are in fact having such problems and then link Epson to the poll. It's about time someone from Epson showed their face on here and answered some of the concerns directly.

I tried this:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461085/epson-2d-to-3d-conversion-warp-pictures-is-normal-bs-or-fact

So far not much reaction.

Rich

I just started this:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1461360/official-epson-problem-thread

Rich

We are getting some feed back, please join if you have had any problems.
Edited by racprops - 3/3/13 at 3:24pm

Thanks! This seems very useful, I just have one question. If I understand correctly, if I plug my projector into main outlet, and it is shut down, it will only cut off the power to the switched outlets (i.e. screen), but would the screen roll up automatically? In another words, would on\off on the switched outlets simulate down/up button on the remote for projector screen?

Well the problem is once a person gets a thing figured out, either by replacing the offending product or getting another brand, then they lose interest in posting about the problems.

So: so far we only have heard from a couple of people having problems.

Or there has been less problem that I have seen on other threads, like color blotches and lamp failures etc.

Rich

Either people can't be a**ed or Epson are making problem free PJ's now. I'll have one please.