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Basement Build: Axiom M80 VS KEF Q900 VS PSB Image T6: Decision Made...

post #1 of 41
10/14/12 at 4:52pm
Thread Starter 
Hi all, Long post. But hopefully will help with other people's dilemmas.

I am looking to find some advice before my brother buys his basement home theater surround package. I am the AV geek of the family (and electrician) and have helped him thus far with his 7.1 channel build in his basement. He is in the finishing stages and is anxious to pull the trigger on some gear.

The room is 14.5' x 30' x 8' The seating position will be approx 14' from the front wall which will have a 100" diag screen lit by an Epson 8350 projector. Behind the sofa will be an open area with a pool table and rear surrounds on the back wall. The system considered will have Floorstanders, with a center, wall mounted Dipoles for surrounds and direct radiating rear surrounds; as they are approx 15 feet behind the sofa.

He is currently looking at ordering the Marantz SR6007 AVR to drive the system as an separate amplifier is out of his price range.

His budget for speakers was established at the Epic M80-800 price of around $5500 (ep800 sub included) with added M22s for rear surrounds.

I would like to offer him solid alternatives before he commits to this package. The candidates are:

Axiom M80
PSB Image T6
KEF Q900
Klipsch RF82 (unlikely contender)
Energy Connoisseur CF-50

The subwoofer choice obviously is contentious... I am trying to talk him out of the Ep800. Two smaller but beefy subs would be better for his room dimensions I think.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.... as I will be spending a lot of time there and will be living vicariously through his system until I can do my own build. LOL. smile.gif

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 41
10/15/12 at 8:46am
I would take just about any of those options over the Axioms. PSB would be at the top. You can find much cheaper subwoofers that will outperform the EP800 as well as have better drivers, amp, and a much much better built cabinet. Axiom subwoofer never get recommended on this forum or really any others except for the Axiom forum. They under perform, under built, and just over all out dated compared to the current ID offerings. I owned Axioms and I sold my Axioms and have no regrets in selling them.

For the $2500 asking price of the EP800 you could get dual HSU ULS 15s, a pair of SVS PC12 Plus (one would probably outperform the EP800), JTR Captivator, Seaton Submersive, Funk Audio 15.0, 15.3, Rythmik FV15HP.

I would add Aperion Grand Verus to the list http://www.aperionaudio.com/speakers/verus-family
Arx speakers (which replaced my Axiom setup) http://www.theaudioinsider.com/manufacturers.php?mPath=13
And Swan/HiVi http://www.theaudioinsider.com/index.php?loudspeakers=swan-diva&cPath=21_22
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post #3 of 41
10/15/12 at 10:01am
I just saw/heard the new Ultra speakers from SVS at the RMAF. They were excellent in sound and build quality. I believe they will be released sometime in November. They were, IMO, at least as good as the Versus Grand towers. No specs of third party reviews or measurements yet, but SVS is usually good about sending their stuff out to reviewers.

The PSB and Kefs you mentioned are both often recommended on these forums.
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post #4 of 41
10/15/12 at 10:04am
Has he been able to actually listen to any of those speakers and compare them? That is the first step. My personal opinion is that I like PSB and Kef vs Axiom and Klipsch, but that is just me. I totally agree on the subwoofers, the Axiom's are not bad, but there are much better bang for the buck subs out there.

I would also look into brands like Paradigm, Goldenear, Definitive Technology, etc as well. Tons of options here, and he has a solid budget.
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post #5 of 41
10/15/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I just saw/heard the new Ultra speakers from SVS at the RMAF. They were excellent in sound and build quality. I believe they will be released sometime in November. They were, IMO, at least as good as the Versus Grand towers. No specs of third party reviews or measurements yet, but SVS is usually good about sending their stuff out to reviewers.
The PSB and Kefs you mentioned are both often recommended on these forums.

The new SVS speakers do look good. They usually create 5.1 and 7.1 packages with their subs at good prices. I think they look a lot like the Kef R series.
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post #6 of 41
10/15/12 at 10:34am
Off your list, PSB or KEF

One other reccomendation, and a real good one
Boston VS336
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/BOSVS336PF/BOSTON-ACOUSTICS-VS336PF-VS-Series-3-Way-6-1/2-in-Tower-Speaker-Cherry-Ea/1.html

http://ap.bostonacoustics.com/-VS-336-Floorstanding-Loudspeaker-P239.aspx
Edited by zieglj01 - 10/15/12 at 10:40am
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post #7 of 41
10/15/12 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I totally agree on the subwoofers, the Axiom's are not bad, but there are much better bang for the buck subs out there.

I think EP350 and EP500 are the only worthwhile Axiom subwoofers. EP125 and EP175 are way too expensive and are really only good for maybe a PC setup or soundbar. EP600 has really high distortion numbers, weak under braced cabinet, port chuffing at higher volumes, and DSP that really dampens output, all those draw backs for close to $2k tells me its no where near its asking price, that and it hasn't gone through any thorough revisions since its introduction in 2004. EP800 isn't any better except for no port chuffing. The build quality of the EP800 is bottom of the list in its price range, its almost embarassing to ask $2500 for it.

If Axiom doesn't want to revise/improve there subwooofer offerings than a slashing of prices is need IMO to have them have any respect or even be considered in today market. I say any where from 20-40% off would make them competitive again. But they just recently raised their prices again for the second time in a year so I think the products will stay the same with no improvements but just keep going up in price.
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post #8 of 41
10/15/12 at 2:15pm
Given your skill level, you could get far better HT performance with DIY at a much lower cost than what you have listed. Check out the site below for some great options:



Speakers:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos-speaker-kits.html

Subs:

you supply the driver

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-1.html


The DIY forum here at AVS is full of knowledgeable people willing to help:

http://www.avsforum.com/f/155/diy-speakers-and-subs



If you decide you don't want to be bothered with speaker assembly then just get 7 of these and you will still have about 2 grand left for a killer sub.:

https://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=142&redirected=1&Itemid=142



You really should concentrate on high sensitivity designs as the seating is 14 feet away and you said you will be depending only on a AVR for power needs. You don't want distortion or compression compromising the theater experience.
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post #9 of 41
10/15/12 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks all for your input. The links will keep us busy with a bit more research. Great stuff! Accessories for less is a good find.

Interesting to hear opinions about Axiom products in general. I've spent some time at their forum and have to say it does seem like the kool aid is passed around there quite a bit. It used to be my dream to own their flagship system a few years ago. Kinda like when a kid puts a pic of a bike above his dresser and saves his flyer route money... lol.

I was looking for some enthusiast opinion to cast doubt on an all out Axiom splurge and now I've got some solid contenders to offer up. Any more input would be greatly appreciated on sub choices.

The reason the KEF and PSB options are so attractive-- availability. I am in Canada so the internet direct stuff isn't always ideal.....a costly audition to ship back. frown.gif I'm thinking the PSB or KEF options could be paired up with a SVS sub at this point. He isn't really as into all this as much as I am so I've got to keep it short and sweet with the auditions. A short short list so to speak.

Side note from memory: Stereophile's recommeded products lists the KEFQ900s as a class "B Full Range" while the PSB Image T6 classsed as "C Full Range." The PSB Synchrony Ones are classed "A Full Range." Is there any value in this or is it rather arbitrary?

I'll try to plead my case to my bro and maybe post a pic or two once all finished up.

Thanks!
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post #10 of 41
10/15/12 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 
I would go DIY for myself, as I could pour over every detail and combo option. I've looked into the Zaph audio designs etc. Since this is for my bro, it has to be as convenient as a microwave dinner. The key is getting it to "taste" better. lol.
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post #11 of 41
10/15/12 at 2:45pm
i cant offer any expertise as far as speaker choices, because i went more of a budget route. but, i do have a speaker placement idea. instead of putting the rear surrounds so far back, maybe consider doing a couple ceiling mounts closer to the couch, maybe next to the pool table or over the pool table. i am quite jealous of his room. here is a picture of what i have done as my rear and side surrounds. mirage speakers.

IMG_3427.jpg
IMG_8472.jpg
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post #12 of 41
10/15/12 at 7:09pm
Thread Starter 
What a nice clean job on your ceiling speakers. Good planning. We piped the speaker runs with 3/4 EMT conduit so we are kinda fixed on positions without some serious fishing. We had originally planned the rears to act as a zone 2 option for his pool table area then changed it later..... All good. Will still sound great I'm sure.
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post #13 of 41
10/15/12 at 7:35pm
oh, i see. does that receiver have audyssey or something similar? if so, im sure you are right, good luck and post some pics when you are done. i always like seeing other peoples' setups
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post #14 of 41
10/16/12 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matman1970 View Post

Subs:
you supply the driver
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/subwoofer-flatpacks-1.html

Do they ever have anything in stock?
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post #15 of 41
10/16/12 at 8:53am
About 5-6 years ago I bought the Axiom M80 (v2 I believe) package (minus sub) and to be honest, I've never really been happy with it. o be fair, they've never failed, but as some others have mentioned, they just don't "wow".

Even though I know I have an older version and Axiom has made improvements with the v3 line, I'm calling it with Axiom and moving on (hopefully) greener pastures.I'm also looking at the same (KEF, PSB, Aperion) as potential replacement options.
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post #16 of 41
10/16/12 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whostolemynick View Post

About 5-6 years ago I bought the Axiom M80 (v2 I believe) package (minus sub) and to be honest, I've never really been happy with it. o be fair, they've never failed, but as some others have mentioned, they just don't "wow".
Even though I know I have an older version and Axiom has made improvements with the v3 line, I'm calling it with Axiom and moving on (hopefully) greener pastures.I'm also looking at the same (KEF, PSB, Aperion) as potential replacement options.

Yes I had V2 Axioms as well and they never provided a wow factor especially for movies. From what I've heard the V3s only real improvement is magnetic grills and a slight crossover tweak, i've also heard from someone that the newer V3 drivers are even cheaper quality than the V2 drivers. Not sure who to believe but Ian stated once that the only difference between V2 and V3 is cosmetic, but then Amie said that the V3s have a sound quality upgrade compared to the V2s.


I would put Aperion on the audition list for sure, "free" shipping both ways, means you can order a set and not out a $100plus for shipping.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 10/16/12 at 10:51am
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post #17 of 41
10/16/12 at 11:32am
Keep in mind that some people seem to have certain speaker brands on and endless search and take any and all opportunities to bad-mouth. Just like in politic, you need to not only do your research by asking questions and reading, but then also research the people providing you with information as well. If you see a lot of information leaning hard one way or another, but coming from one or two sources, does that make it completely true for everyone? Heck no.

Not saying that people shouldn't have their own opinions or that the O.P. hasn't asked for opinions, but I don't see any horrible brands/models in the mix. For me, I don't like Klipsch because I find that their designs that use horns are a bit too harsh, but I know other people that are MORE than happy with them.

There are so many other factors than just sound too. What do they look like? That is a big one when spouses get involved. None of the O.P.'s options are extremely "sexy" looking, but some are slightly different in design or finish options that may play into the decision.

Then there IS the performance of the speakers and the room that they are going in to. If you have a room with some null cancelation at mid-range frequencies, you will get a dip in the vocal range, so in music or movies, the dialog/vocals may be difficult to hear. But if one of the brands has an inherit spike in the same frequency range, it may negate that null in the room and sound good. The room is a factor as well as the speaker performance is what I am saying. Some people can take a "bright" speaker, and those high ends are compounded or reduced depending on their room characteristics, so on and so forth.

Don't forget a proper calibration too. With it, good speakers can become great, and great speakers can become outstanding.

Obviously we would all love (ok, maybe not ALL of us) to be able to sample the different brands within our specific home installation setups, but we can't always do that without some substantial money being laid out for it. That is why people come to sites like this to get other people's thoughts and experiences. I just caution people looking for insight in this area because you run into a lot of people with very limited actual experience with different speaker brands/models (or their experience is outdated from when they bought, or whatever) and for those that had a bad experience and like to slam a company as their way to "get back" at them or whatever their motive. It doesn't mean that they should completely move on and forget, but again, a grain of salt with their comments are in order. As an interesting note, one of the posters in this thread has 23% of their post (gotta love a quick search) where they specifically talk about one particular speaker manufacturer. Sure, some of theire early posts are praising the products, but there are a MUCH larger number of all out bashes of that same company. There is a LOT to the backstory there that would just derail this thread, so I will leave it out. That would seem like someone who went from very happy to very bitter towards a company and thus they reflect it online.

I am not defending any speaker company here, and I am certainly not saying that all of the positive OR negative comments above are invalid. I am just saying to look at all of the factors and make up your own mind. Get your research, and weed through some of the noise. Heck, maybe WhoStoleMyNick has some digging that he has done with the brands he is looking in to, even if he is bailing on one of your original choices. He could possibly point you to some of his research or vice versa. Then you can compare that information to other information about Axiom and get almost a full set of options.

Collaboration and common sense SHOULD go hand in hand. A lot of people LOVE to collaborate, but not everyone takes that information and adds common sense.

Good luck! These are exciting times! Stressful sometimes, but fun as well!

PS. Personally I have heard Klipsh, Paradigm, QEF, Axiom, B&W, and Martin Logans. They were all in different rooms, and at different price points. I settled in on what I liked, and have been happy. Then I aded some accoustical treatments and a proper calibration just this year after a long time ownership, and they are even better than I have ever imagined that they could be. I have a coworker who has some cheap Yamaha speakers in his theater, and another coworker that has some (ugh) Bose cubes. They are full of "wow" effect since they are both paired with nice subs (even the Bose guy at uses a separate sub) so you get the low tactile feel of the sub, with the crisp details of the highs which is what most people perceive as being great sound. They are both missing a lot in the middle, but they find their setups to seem very impressive, even if they are missing a whole bunch of the frequency spectrum. Everyone's ears are different, and everyone has different amounts of money to spend. These two guys like the same high/low with no middle sound, but paid a greatly different price to get it.
Edited by nickbuol - 10/16/12 at 11:59am
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post #18 of 41
10/16/12 at 4:12pm
gtpsuper24 and whostolemynick I don't know what you boys are smokin but saying M80s don't have wow factor especially for movies is nonsense. What wow you looking for exactly? I can tell you for a fact that my M80s coupled to a good AVR and Amp wow the pants off everyone who hears them both for movies and music. I also have an EP500 (along with a 10" Polk) and it really puts out a clean, controlled very low end with the emphasis and clean and controlled.

Hell Commute, we are talking big investment here. Try and audition each speaker if you can. Most high end audio organizations have some way to audition their gear. Heck, many (I know Axiom does) will even let you return the speakers before 30 days for a full refund if you are not happy. That is what I did when I bought Axiom. I bought and I listened to them in my own home. I also auditioned two (well one officially) and I made my choice.
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post #19 of 41
10/16/12 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Collaboration and common sense SHOULD go hand in hand. A lot of people LOVE to collaborate, but not everyone takes that information and adds common sense.

PS. Personally I have heard Klipsh, Paradigm, QEF, Axiom, B&W, and Martin Logans. They were all in different rooms, and at different price points. I settled in on what I liked, and have been happy. Then I aded some accoustical treatments and a proper calibration just this year after a long time ownership, and they are even better than I have ever imagined that they could be. I have a coworker who has some cheap Yamaha speakers in his theater, and another coworker that has some (ugh) Bose cubes. They are full of "wow" effect since they are both paired with nice subs (even the Bose guy at uses a separate sub) so you get the low tactile feel of the sub, with the crisp details of the highs which is what most people perceive as being great sound. They are both missing a lot in the middle, but they find their setups to seem very impressive, even if they are missing a whole bunch of the frequency spectrum. Everyone's ears are different, and everyone has different amounts of money to spend. These two guys like the same high/low with no middle sound, but paid a greatly different price to get it.

I had Axiom, Paradigm Monitors, HSU, Aperion, Boston Acoustics, Emotiva, Arx, Dayton Audio, JBL, Polk, and Infinity all in the SAME room using the SAME equipment. I've also spent some time with the Ascend Sierras at a co-workers house about a year or so ago. In Store demo time with Golden Ear, newer Paradigms Monitors, McIntosh Line Arrays, as well as some Monitor Audio stuff. I've had some experience with speakers too, to know what sounds good and what sounds bad or ho hum. I can also use my own two eyes to see what has good quality craftsmenship and what looks dated and/or cheap.

By wow factor means something that you can sit back and listen too and then realize that you've just listened to and entire cd or dvd-a and didnt even realize it. My old V2 M22s, VP150 and M2s didn't provide that, frail, clinical, and lifeless and lacks that fullness that most of the others that I demo'd side by side was not lacking. A few of my favorite ones had a much more natural sound to them. Highs were there but not in your face screaming at you and had much better articulation in the highs and mids. The Axioms lacked the same powerful dynamics that a few others had like the Paradigm Titan, HSU, Boston VRB, and Arx. The Axiom tweeter had a overhang or after ring that a few of the other especially the planar in the Arx did not have, it was more on/off and very articulate. The Axioms were not horrible, but definitely not top of the pile great (like a few seem to push).

Listening time wasn't just a few minutes it was days and weeks spent listening to each speaker, some speaker sound great right away. But you do yourself a disservice by not spending time with another speaker your considering. Just doing an afternoon session isn't enough to say this speaker is better than this speaker. Do yourself a favor and put your Axiom's off to the side and find a brand like Aperion Grands for example and try the out in home for the 3 weeks or so without listening to the Axioms at all. Its then that your can pick out the flaws of the Axioms for example. You might find yourself begin to nitpick somewhat on the Axioms, and the same can be said for other speakers as well. You may end up prefering the Aperions afterward or you might send them back.

I realize that my current speakers are not the end all of speakers. And I realize that there are better speakers out there. The biggest issue when Axiom comes up in conversations is the die hard Axiom fans seem to think that Axiom has no competiiton and are equally good compared to other brands. And by saying that Axiom isn't the best of a certain list of speakers like what OP mention makes everyone somehow a troll or just stirring the pot. First you say everyones ears are different and likes what they like. But then when someone says they think Axioms are bright, the Axiom guys call them crazy or ignorant and don't know good speakers. AVS is a great forum and isn't stressful in the least, you just need thicker skin and realize that your Axioms are not the end all and there are actual living people who've owned them and did not like them. You know what? I recommend my Arx A5 towers alot on here and Audioholics and sometimes the OP likes the idea and researches and other times they say pass, no big deal its not the end of the world.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 10/18/12 at 5:51pm
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post #20 of 41
10/16/12 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Keep in mind that some people seem to have certain speaker brands on and endless search and take any and all opportunities to bad-mouth. Just like in politic, you need to not only do your research by asking questions and reading, but then also research the people providing you with information as well. If you see a lot of information leaning hard one way or another, but coming from one or two sources, does that make it completely true for everyone? Heck no.
Not saying that people shouldn't have their own opinions or that the O.P. hasn't asked for opinions, but I don't see any horrible brands/models in the mix. For me, I don't like Klipsch because I find that their designs that use horns are a bit too harsh, but I know other people that are MORE than happy with them.
There are so many other factors than just sound too. What do they look like? That is a big one when spouses get involved. None of the O.P.'s options are extremely "sexy" looking, but some are slightly different in design or finish options that may play into the decision.
Then there IS the performance of the speakers and the room that they are going in to. If you have a room with some null cancelation at mid-range frequencies, you will get a dip in the vocal range, so in music or movies, the dialog/vocals may be difficult to hear. But if one of the brands has an inherit spike in the same frequency range, it may negate that null in the room and sound good. The room is a factor as well as the speaker performance is what I am saying. Some people can take a "bright" speaker, and those high ends are compounded or reduced depending on their room characteristics, so on and so forth.
Don't forget a proper calibration too. With it, good speakers can become great, and great speakers can become outstanding.
Obviously we would all love (ok, maybe not ALL of us) to be able to sample the different brands within our specific home installation setups, but we can't always do that without some substantial money being laid out for it. That is why people come to sites like this to get other people's thoughts and experiences. I just caution people looking for insight in this area because you run into a lot of people with very limited actual experience with different speaker brands/models (or their experience is outdated from when they bought, or whatever) and for those that had a bad experience and like to slam a company as their way to "get back" at them or whatever their motive. It doesn't mean that they should completely move on and forget, but again, a grain of salt with their comments are in order. As an interesting note, one of the posters in this thread has 23% of their post (gotta love a quick search) where they specifically talk about one particular speaker manufacturer. Sure, some of theire early posts are praising the products, but there are a MUCH larger number of all out bashes of that same company. There is a LOT to the backstory there that would just derail this thread, so I will leave it out. That would seem like someone who went from very happy to very bitter towards a company and thus they reflect it online.
I am not defending any speaker company here, and I am certainly not saying that all of the positive OR negative comments above are invalid. I am just saying to look at all of the factors and make up your own mind. Get your research, and weed through some of the noise. Heck, maybe WhoStoleMyNick has some digging that he has done with the brands he is looking in to, even if he is bailing on one of your original choices. He could possibly point you to some of his research or vice versa. Then you can compare that information to other information about Axiom and get almost a full set of options.
Collaboration and common sense SHOULD go hand in hand. A lot of people LOVE to collaborate, but not everyone takes that information and adds common sense.
Good luck! These are exciting times! Stressful sometimes, but fun as well!
PS. Personally I have heard Klipsh, Paradigm, QEF, Axiom, B&W, and Martin Logans. They were all in different rooms, and at different price points. I settled in on what I liked, and have been happy. Then I aded some accoustical treatments and a proper calibration just this year after a long time ownership, and they are even better than I have ever imagined that they could be. I have a coworker who has some cheap Yamaha speakers in his theater, and another coworker that has some (ugh) Bose cubes. They are full of "wow" effect since they are both paired with nice subs (even the Bose guy at uses a separate sub) so you get the low tactile feel of the sub, with the crisp details of the highs which is what most people perceive as being great sound. They are both missing a lot in the middle, but they find their setups to seem very impressive, even if they are missing a whole bunch of the frequency spectrum. Everyone's ears are different, and everyone has different amounts of money to spend. These two guys like the same high/low with no middle sound, but paid a greatly different price to get it.

Well the OP did say he spent some time following the Axiom forum and came here for some objective opinions....in your post you've taken issue with 2 other posters whos thoughts or opinions are not inline with yours as having an agenda. I myself have listened to some of the brands mentioned here and you've listed above including the Axioms which I audtioned in home and kept for ~6 months....finally opting to go in another route because the Axiom didn't excite me....like they do you or some others who own them....like you said speakers are very subjective and whilst your researching any brand on any forum remenber to keep an open mind....smile.gif
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post #21 of 41
10/16/12 at 5:32pm
Thread Starter 
I have spent a lot of time lurking as a guest in the Axiom forum (also here, and Audioholics.) Generally the folks there are very helpful and willing to offer up sugguestions for room setup etc. I'm not a brand fanboy by any means, and posting here at AVS was purposeful in that I am looking for opinions that are not brand centric. At the Axiom forum it would be somewhat disrespectful to encourage open discourse calling into question pros/cons of their products- even if it was simply to encourage due diligence before dropping 5K$.

I was also an avid follower of Tom Andry of the AVrant podcast. Talk about opinions..... ha ha. He is great! Strong opinions don't scare me-- they exicite me! The HTGuys are another solid podcast.

People should be more thick skinned, yes.... but this is a passionate hobby. That is why we're all here posting right? smile.gif I appreciate all sides and mostly appreciate the open discourse. Great thread so far and thanks everyone for their input.

As a side note I have also contacted the Editor at Home Theater Magazine about a possible Axiom review. PSB, Paradigm and KEF etc. are all routinely examined there. The response was positive and I hope to get some bench results for future buyers-- as my bro's decision should be long made by then. wink.gif Reviews and opinion are a great place to star when there is literally hundreds of options. His ears will make the choice in the end of course.
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post #22 of 41
10/16/12 at 9:25pm
Billy, I didn't take issue per se, but just wanted to give a new AVS member some level of caution, that is all. I was faced with it MANY times here. There are some people that are fan boys (none of the posts here come across as fan boy at all), and there are some people that have different experiences based off of room setup, etc that don't "wow", and that is cool. I never said that there was anything wrong with that. As for the person with 23% of their posts and of those almost 20% (1 in every 5 posts) is negative towards a single brand, regardless of who it is, then it is like taking the top and bottom score out of a test sample and throwing them out. I just wanted to make sure that the OP realized that this type of thing does happen here a lot depending on the topic, and I just wanted to make sure that everything was taken with some of the (again) caution that I've learned from the almost 16 years that I've been here. (I was here before the big server crash in the last 1990's where everyone had to re-setup their accounts.)

That's is all. It is his decision, and I am certainly not going to slam someone for making up their own mind.
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post #23 of 41
10/17/12 at 5:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Do they ever have anything in stock?

Yeah, unfortunately it still seems to be a work in progress, I used it mostly to show him some options. Hopefully it will have more in stock options soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Commute View Post

I would go DIY for myself, as I could pour over every detail and combo option. I've looked into the Zaph audio designs etc. Since this is for my bro, it has to be as convenient as a microwave dinner. The key is getting it to "taste" better. lol.

Understood, as I stated before, if your buddy is only using an avr to power his speakers in that size room with seating 14 feet away from the speakers, he should really consider high sensitivity speakers to avoid compromising the performance at decent volume. Here are a couple of good threads on the subject:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-low-distortion-speakers

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412527/ht-has-anyone-ever-moved-from-high-sensitivity-speakers-back-to-low-sensitivity
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post #24 of 41
10/17/12 at 6:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Commute View Post

I have spent a lot of time lurking as a guest in the Axiom forum (also here, and Audioholics.) Generally the folks there are very helpful and willing to offer up sugguestions for room setup etc. I'm not a brand fanboy by any means, and posting here at AVS was purposeful in that I am looking for opinions that are not brand centric. At the Axiom forum it would be somewhat disrespectful to encourage open discourse calling into question pros/cons of their products- even if it was simply to encourage due diligence before dropping 5K$.
I was also an avid follower of Tom Andry of the AVrant podcast. Talk about opinions..... ha ha. He is great! Strong opinions don't scare me-- they exicite me! The HTGuys are another solid podcast.
People should be more thick skinned, yes.... but this is a passionate hobby. That is why we're all here posting right? smile.gif I appreciate all sides and mostly appreciate the open discourse. Great thread so far and thanks everyone for their input.
As a side note I have also contacted the Editor at Home Theater Magazine about a possible Axiom review. PSB, Paradigm and KEF etc. are all routinely examined there. The response was positive and I hope to get some bench results for future buyers-- as my bro's decision should be long made by then. wink.gif Reviews and opinion are a great place to star when there is literally hundreds of options. His ears will make the choice in the end of course.

Yes, you are going to get bias responses just about anywhere. People are passionate about speakers, and you really need to listen to the speakers to make your decision.
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post #25 of 41
10/17/12 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

Billy, I didn't take issue per se, but just wanted to give a new AVS member some level of caution, that is all. I was faced with it MANY times here. There are some people that are fan boys (none of the posts here come across as fan boy at all), and there are some people that have different experiences based off of room setup, etc that don't "wow", and that is cool. I never said that there was anything wrong with that. As for the person with 23% of their posts and of those almost 20% (1 in every 5 posts) is negative towards a single brand, regardless of who it is, then it is like taking the top and bottom score out of a test sample and throwing them out. I just wanted to make sure that the OP realized that this type of thing does happen here a lot depending on the topic, and I just wanted to make sure that everything was taken with some of the (again) caution that I've learned from the almost 16 years that I've been here. (I was here before the big server crash in the last 1990's where everyone had to re-setup their accounts.)
That's is all. It is his decision, and I am certainly not going to slam someone for making up their own mind.

Or people that purchased speakers that don't provide what they're looking for. Its great that you think if someone doesn't like the Axioms that somehow its my room or my setup, or that I'm just too stupid to know how to setup such awesome speakers like the Axioms rolleyes.gif They don't sound good to me and I think compared to the competition that I owned same time as the Axioms they have very low level build quality and cheap quality parts.

Its me that your talking about the 23%. Although I unlike you don't waste my time researching members to try and discredit them. You hate my postion on Axiom speakers as well as the rest of your friends on the Axiom forum. Who by the way all get together over there when a thread comes up on the internet about Axiom and its Axiom fanboys unite when someone says a negative word about them. You all make a joint effort to get together and all post in that thread. Like you did yesterday at the Axiom forum. You did not come here to help the OP. You can here to attack me and my posts and opinions of Axiom. If Axiom was never mentioned you would have never posted on here. I'm on the speaker forum and subwoofer forum and I never see you posting in those forums UNLESS someone has said something about Axiom products that you don't like.








By the way, what "crazy way" am I misleading the OP. Like I say in my first post guiding him toward PSB, KEF for speakers? Or Seaton Submersive, HSU ULS 15, SVS Ultra? Instead of Axiom M80s and EP800, Really!?!?! Thats Crazy?
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 10/17/12 at 10:57am
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post #26 of 41
10/17/12 at 7:30am
This is an interesting read:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1337283/any-thoughts-on-axiom-audio-speakers
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post #27 of 41
10/17/12 at 7:35am
Thread Starter 
I never really considered 14ft away from the mains a concern for full range towers. I guess I dont have enough experience to tell what I would be missing. That will come later when I build my own towers for my hi-fi setup. wink.gif

The Marantz SR6007 is rated at 110w per channel (Marantz and Denon receivers share a lot of the same components afaik ie. Honda\acura etc.-- so I'm not worried about grunt.) Denon is known for being good at driving demanding loads.

In room DB sensitivity specs from company spec sheets:
The KEF Q900s are rated at 91db
The PSB Image T6 are rated 91db
The Axiom M80 are rated 95db

I'm not sure at "normal" listening levels if any numbers greater than 90 or so will make an appreciable difference. It is my understanding that after the full range of speaker frequency:power demands are met, increased DB will provide headroom at the receiver end. Kind of splitting hairs after that perhaps. Kind of like improving the power factor of a load decreases line current while adding headroom at a transformer. Inductors\Caps and diodes are a little past me once variable frequency is added. I digress... Given the receiver, there should be adequate headroom with any of these choices. No?

Also to note is the Marantz employs MultEQ XT for room correction. I have a Pioneer VSX-9130TXH in my room and the MCACC expert mode was magical in making my budget speakers cooperate with my room. This being said an X-Curve could also tame any outlier speakers in the package.
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post #28 of 41
10/17/12 at 7:36am
Some good folks in Calgary who'll let you have a listen.

Jason (goes by jakewash), who I haven't seen around in a long time has an M80 setup in his basement and M22 in his den. He was also kind enough to lend me a sub while I was waiting for delivery on my Rythmik. He's a big Axiom fan and loves subwoofers - he does not own Axiom subs, I believe he's an SVS guy.

I have a KEF iQ30 x 3 and iQ1 x 2 system you'd be welcome to listen to. Send me a PM. I got them from Visions during the last iQ selloff - not sure if they're doing deals on the iQx0 line or not. Amazing value if they are.
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post #29 of 41
10/20/12 at 2:24pm
Hell Commute,

Good luck in your research and decision. You will get some great sound for sure.

GTP, thank you for bring up my post over at Axiom. Even over there, "among my Axiom friends", I explain that there are a lot of biased opinions here at AVS. I got slammed at one point for not have an Oppo blu-ray, or when I had my Sanyo projector and not a Panasonic. Not everyone were on the attack, but a few. Of course, they would say that whatever they owned was the best.

As with anything, there is a lot of personal opinion. I never said that YOUR room caused you to not like your Axioms, just that ALL speakers can benefit from a good room calibration, and that some rooms DO IN FACT have peaks and lulls in certain frequency ranges and certain brands benefit and suffer from those depending on their own characteristics. I am glad that you found something that you like. Lets drop the personal arguments and leave things as helpful as possible. You opinion DOES matter, but don't bash something over and over and over...
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post #30 of 41
10/20/12 at 3:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

GTP, thank you for bring up my post over at Axiom. Even over there, "among my Axiom friends", I explain that there are a lot of biased opinions here at AVS. I got slammed at one point for not have an Oppo blu-ray, or when I had my Sanyo projector and not a Panasonic. Not everyone were on the attack, but a few. Of course, they would say that whatever they owned was the best.
As with anything, there is a lot of personal opinion. I never said that YOUR room caused you to not like your Axioms, just that ALL speakers can benefit from a good room calibration, and that some rooms DO IN FACT have peaks and lulls in certain frequency ranges and certain brands benefit and suffer from those depending on their own characteristics. I am glad that you found something that you like. Lets drop the personal arguments and leave things as helpful as possible. You opinion DOES matter, but don't bash something over and over and over...

No problem. I only wanted to show everyone that your not posting to help the op first and foremost but to chime in because Axiom isn't getting rave recommendations like they would on the Axiom site forum. Sorry that you get attacked for not owning something. If you can point me to were I attacked you that would be really helpful. I kept my opinions on the product not on you or anyone one else. Its based on my own experiences and there was no references to any Axiom owners, it was solely product based opinion, nothing personal about that. Yes you never said that it was my room but you made it clear that because I grew to dislike the Axioms that I somehow like speakers designed with colorations added on purpose. Have you even heard my speakers? To say they add coloration?

How did you ever come to the conclusion that the Axioms are better and worth keeping over the Klipsh, Paradigm, KEF, B&W, and Martin Logans if they were all in different environments? Did you own the Axioms after listening to those others or did you demo them all at the same time? Did you use same media content, same receiver, amps, same type of EQ or was it different EQs or were some EQ'd and others not?

I think if anyone feels there products are the best its the Axiom guys. Anyone who criticizes any Axiom product is labeled a troll, pot stirrer, or just plain out to trash Axiom unfairly. Maybe not you but alot of the Axiom guys go on and all out offensive for anything said about any Axiom product. Can an owner say anything negative about the VP150 Hell no not without Axiom guys jumping on you. Reviewers get slammed as biased if Axiom doesn't come out on top. If a test shows a negative attribute of an Axiom subwoofer for example they reviewer gets attacked personally for being biased or just too stupid to know how to test something. It been that way for years. Seems they do just as much or more pushing their stuff as the best than any one else. I said I don't like Axioms that means too you that I like lesser quality speakers with unnatural coloration.

I've seen Alan Loft and alot of the other guys on the Axiom forum trash other brands to promote Axioms. Alan Loft said that Paradigm purposefully adds a fatiquing midbass hump to all their speaker, but yet I never seen a single one of the Axiom guys ask for verification or proof that Paradigm does that.
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 10/20/12 at 4:03pm
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