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Basement Build: Axiom M80 VS KEF Q900 VS PSB Image T6: Decision Made... - Page 2

post #31 of 41
I never said that Axioms were better than any of the others, but I certainly can't afford the $10,000 Martin Logans. Stop injecting YOUR thoughts into MY posts. I have continued to say over and over again that the brands that he is looking at are a great list. Lay off the crap and lets move on. I would say that by now everyone else sees that I am trying to help. I think that you like to pick fights and that is all. I am NOT going to get into in this thread any longer.
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickbuol View Post

I never said that Axioms were better than any of the others, but I certainly can't afford the $10,000 Martin Logans. Stop injecting YOUR thoughts into MY posts. I have continued to say over and over again that the brands that he is looking at are a great list. Lay off the crap and lets move on. I would say that by now everyone else sees that I am trying to help. I think that you like to pick fights and that is all. I am NOT going to get into in this thread any longer.

Did you listen to brands in Axiom price ranges? ML makes more than just $10k speakers. This isn't aimed at you but I see several Axiom guys always throw that line out there "I got Axiom only cause I couldn't afford $30,000 speakers" I just keep thinking "Um you realize that there are dozen and dozens, maybe hundreds of speaker in Axiom price ranges, did you forget about all those?"

I'd still like to know why you said on the Axiom forum that I'm steering the OP in a "crazy way". How is that? I told him in the first post that I would put PSB at the top of the list and rattled off several high performing subwoofers over the Axiom stuff.

You posts come across as picking a fight. Why is it your only responding to a thread involving Axiom? If your trying to help theres dozens of pages where people are asking for help with speakers, speaker setup, speaker choices, ect... How come I never see you in the speaker or subwoofer forums? I'm fairly active on these forums and most I think will tell you I don't shill one single brand and usually try and offer the best advice I can, even if they want nothing to do with any of my recommendations. Even some of the brands I've owned for the trial period but returned, i've still recommended them even though I don't own them.

The OP can jump right on the Axiom forum and see your only here to "push" Axiom products and go after my posts, like you said theres history there. Axiom forum, AVS AGAIN. Someone says something about Axiom on Audioholics and sure enough one of you starts a thread over there like "Audioholics bashing mad.gif " So you want to come over here to AVS and jump my posts and then pretend you only here to offer helpful advice.

When I mind my own business and just post my opinions on a subject doesn't mean I'm picking a fight. Its you that came after my posts I made. This just reaffirms what alot of folk on the forums thinks of you Axiom guys. No matter the forum you think you guys have the right to jump in and shut anyone up whose discussing Axiom products. Its not just this forum that "picks" on Axiom products and Axiom isn't the only brand that gets negative attention or has its "haters".
Edited by gtpsuper24 - 10/20/12 at 7:38pm
post #33 of 41
Axiom made their way off my list of speakers to even consider based on reviews of substandard product they offered in the past. Their current line-up may be great, but based on their history... cheap crossovers inside a cheap cabinet, with cheap drivers... no thanks, off the list of consideration.
AND even if they offer a better product today, based on what they did in the past, that's no way to run a business, and they wont get my $$... period.

Yes, I know that was for an older product, and was from 'tear down' reviews from over 2 years ago, and hopefully they make a better product today, and YES, I've never heard a single Axiom product... but I have no desire to... that was the crap they sold then, and it ruled it out for me. I have no tolerance for thay type of 'doing business'.

If you want to roll the dice, fine, go ahead. If you have their current product and are happy, great. That's all that matters... but at one time, they sold a 'polished turd' and called it candy. Caveat Emptor.

bash away... thick skin and no tolerance for BS,
Joseph
post #34 of 41
Thread Starter 
Progress:

We auditioned the KEF Q900s and some Mirage speakers that happened to be there too. I gotta say not really that impressive. From the reviews I expected a lot more. First off the room was horrible (really horrible) and they were set up too far apart imo (about 10ish feet or so) and pushed about 8" from a wall. So that being said I'm sure at home in his room they would produce much better sound.

However, they were very aggresive on the top end and laid back down low. When I applied a THX music setting (x-curve in play) the speakers sounded night and day better. The sales associate told me that the in room correction would take care of the shortcomings of the speaker and that it wasn't a big deal. But for 1500$ a pair I expect great sound with pure direct mode or "vanilla" processing only.

We learned that to get an honest audition you have to go to the pros. We went to a custom AV and retail home theater shop and what a difference. Lets just say when you get people who weed out all of the short straws for you, your job at an audition becomes much easier. Products were set up as we would have them at home. Rooms were treated acoustically and isolated from one another with doors. He understood we were there for an audition, and suprisingly, was more helpful once he knew he could expose us to much more than we had ever experienced.

Have to ever listened to a pair of $100 000 McIntosh line aray speakers? I have smile.gif!!! Exciting. They were taller than me!

We were told when I asked "why isn't this brand here?" questions that either A: They weren't a good seller because they are priced similarly to this brand that sounds better or B: We deemed their performance unfit for our customer base upon sampling from the manufacturer. WOW! What a big help.

We were also told any mainstream brand nowadays is manufactured in china or at least overseas, and that the difference in a brand's price and quality depends on whether the brand company owns and manages the manufacturing facility or just outsources all or part of the process out. Typically, speakers companies that are vertically integrated will have better product, QA, and cost control. This enables some brands to produce a better final product to us picky customers for a better deal.

The example he used was B&W and Paradigm. Both quality speakers with outstanding reputations and pedigree. They dropped Paradigm because for a B&W setup for a similar price there was no comparisson. The customers voted them out by not buying them once listened to side by side.

The final outcome and best advice I can give anyone learning, looking or just tire kicking is: go to a store that cares about quality, has qualtiy audition spaces and has staff that don't wear nametags. Go to a custom AV retailer. Or better yet go to several. You will be floored when you hear speakers for the first time that don't sound like speakers at all. Don't understand? You will. smile.gif

I was floored when I learned magnificent performance was affordable-- entry level high end destroys top tier big box store brands.

Still to audition is a PSB setup and others we happen upon. Will update.
post #35 of 41
Therein lies the rub. It is really about the room and room correction software goes a long way towards curing this. To get the full sonic picture room treatments are required ,along with software to analyse the room. A bad room will make great speakers sound bad, a treated room will make mediocre speakers sound great.
This is a great read and not too long,by and undisputed expert in all things related to speakers. There is plenty of good reading on the subject of room treatment to be found. Hopefully you will find the speakers that meet your needs within you budget and dont forget to factor in shipping if you go the online route. There is no such thing as free shipping.



Richard
post #36 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Commute View Post

Progress:
We auditioned the KEF Q900s and some Mirage speakers that happened to be there too. I gotta say not really that impressive. From the reviews I expected a lot more. First off the room was horrible (really horrible) and they were set up too far apart imo (about 10ish feet or so) and pushed about 8" from a wall. So that being said I'm sure at home in his room they would produce much better sound.
However, they were very aggresive on the top end and laid back down low. When I applied a THX music setting (x-curve in play) the speakers sounded night and day better. The sales associate told me that the in room correction would take care of the shortcomings of the speaker and that it wasn't a big deal. But for 1500$ a pair I expect great sound with pure direct mode or "vanilla" processing only.
We learned that to get an honest audition you have to go to the pros. We went to a custom AV and retail home theater shop and what a difference. Lets just say when you get people who weed out all of the short straws for you, your job at an audition becomes much easier. Products were set up as we would have them at home. Rooms were treated acoustically and isolated from one another with doors. He understood we were there for an audition, and suprisingly, was more helpful once he knew he could expose us to much more than we had ever experienced.
Have to ever listened to a pair of $100 000 McIntosh line aray speakers? I have smile.gif!!! Exciting. They were taller than me!
We were told when I asked "why isn't this brand here?" questions that either A: They weren't a good seller because they are priced similarly to this brand that sounds better or B: We deemed their performance unfit for our customer base upon sampling from the manufacturer. WOW! What a big help.
We were also told any mainstream brand nowadays is manufactured in china or at least overseas, and that the difference in a brand's price and quality depends on whether the brand company owns and manages the manufacturing facility or just outsources all or part of the process out. Typically, speakers companies that are vertically integrated will have better product, QA, and cost control. This enables some brands to produce a better final product to us picky customers for a better deal.
The example he used was B&W and Paradigm. Both quality speakers with outstanding reputations and pedigree. They dropped Paradigm because for a B&W setup for a similar price there was no comparisson. The customers voted them out by not buying them once listened to side by side.
The final outcome and best advice I can give anyone learning, looking or just tire kicking is: go to a store that cares about quality, has qualtiy audition spaces and has staff that don't wear nametags. Go to a custom AV retailer. Or better yet go to several. You will be floored when you hear speakers for the first time that don't sound like speakers at all. Don't understand? You will. smile.gif
I was floored when I learned magnificent performance was affordable-- entry level high end destroys top tier big box store brands.
Still to audition is a PSB setup and others we happen upon. Will update.

While I have never heard the new KEF Q Series they do get very good reviews. I would not be so quick to dismissed them based on your first demo session. Its not fair to judge any speaker in a room even you said was horrible. If you get a chance somewhere else re listen too them and give them a fair chance. I can't think of the person who said it but "Listening to a speaker in a bad room is like driving a Porshe on ice and then complaining about the handling."

Even if the rooms are treated nicely and in separate demo rooms it still is important to remember that they may not sound exactly the same as they will in the living room.

Yes I've heard the McIntosh Line Arrays and they are crazy awesome. Those are my dream speakers if I ever win the lotto, demoed them in a separate large room of all MC stuff, mono blocks, linearrays, full on room treatments.

Don't be quick to dismissed Chinese made speakers/subwoofer. They can have just as good of quality control and fit and finish and be just as well engineer as any North American made speaker/subwoofer or European made. It really does matter how they manage their faclilites.

Also AV retailers have always pushed certain products, especially those with slightly higher profit margins, which maybe why they think so highly of B&W over Paradigm.

Keep up the auditions and have fun.
post #37 of 41
Thread Starter 
I'm sorry if my post read like I'm against speakers manufactured overseas. Not at all. Just that what we perceive insn't always the case with branding and marketing etc.

We've dismissed the KEFs pretty much after our experience at the AV specialty retailer. So much better out there in terms of performance and finish for the price. Looks like we will be going back there to audition a few more and then onto a PSB dealer.
post #38 of 41
Thread Starter 
and the winner is.... none of the above.

After listening to about 7 or so brands in that price range of <$5500 for a 7 channel system (and available locally) he is pretty much settled on a Focal chorus setup. Beautiful sound.

Since I was helping him out it was hard not to pull the trigger on something myself. A mordaunt short mezzo 6 package......outstanding value for performance.

Both are ridiculously good sounding speakers in different ways. We learned and heard so much from our experiences at the higher end Audio stores we visited that the contenders didn't really hold that much appeal anymore..... He still comes in under budget btw.

The sonic qualties both speakers shared were their effortless ability to fill the room with expansive transparent sound...with a stereo pair only. The focals are easily the superior speaker... but not by much. There is just something you can't get from looking at measurements, reading reviews, scouring forums or manufacturers websites..... emotion from sound, and an uncontrollable grin.smile.gif Doesn't hurt to be with a great pal at the same time.

Forums are great for setup, technical and general questions.... cool.gif but after meeting with real pros, who's passion is in it, personal experience with quality gear trumps opinion. We met some great guys who live for speakers. What a great resource we have in those stores. Use it!!

It's kind of bittersweet to think of all the time I've spent lurking in forums, hoping to strike gold with some secret way to get amazing sound for my budget.

The verdict, do yourself a favour and get out there. The forum is "silent" and there is magic out there awaiting you.

-Cheers
Edited by Hell Commute - 10/25/12 at 5:12pm
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Commute View Post

Forums are great for setup, technical and general questions....:cool:but after meeting with real pros, who's passion is in it, personal experience with quality gear trumps opinion. We met some great guys who live for speakers. What a great resource we have in those stores. Use it!!
It's kind of bittersweet to think of all the time I've spent lurking in forums, hoping to strike gold with some secret way to get amazing sound for my budget.
The verdict, do yourself a favour and get out there. The forum is "silent" and there is magic out there awaiting you.
-Cheers

Cool, glad you guys found something he likes. Focal make damn fine speakers. I really like there car audio stuff. The Focal tweeters are awesome. What series of Chorus did you get, 700V or 800V?

Thats great advice, anyone looking for new speakers should always go and demo as many as they can find. Theres is only so much you can learn on a forum. Even though I have my entire setup, I still enjoy wandering around AV shops. But I still prefer ID brands over the store brands most of the time, especially subwoofers. IMO the store brands can't touch the ID subwoofers when it comes to performance.

Jump in the Focal owners thread after you get them setup. Focal is a very popular brand.
post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell Commute View Post

and the winner is....

...hopefully your brother biggrin.gif

Sounds like you both had fun in the process and ended up with some great gear you should enjoy cool.gif
post #41 of 41
Thread Starter 
The Focals are the 826V I believe. Pretty unique looking grills. Kind of like a Transformer mask! Or Bruce Waynes speaker. lol.
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