So realistically, how do DIY flat kits sound compared to high dollar retail finished products? - Page 11

I think you got lost a while ago. I think everyone else has left the room. You should start your own thread, instead of relying on this one. Enjoy your new sub whatever it ends up being.

Building subs, not about proving anything. It's about enjoying music and movies.

Edited by imagic - 11/11/12 at 3:17pm

puppet,

to the best of my knowledge, there are no flat pack kits that are fully finished and will outperform your choices for the same money.

just stop and think about what you are asking for a second. where would the savings come from? the time that it takes to assemble the enclosure and the shipping of the larger enclosure relative to a flat pack. with a medium small sub, that would be something like $30 (which is a whopping 3% of $1000).

since you don't want to do any of the work and are interested in a mainstream product, internet direct is your best choice.

my best advice for you is to order a copy of this:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092

if you are hoping to buy a sub, plop it in your room, and get good results, don't count on it.

Exactly. That has been my question all along.

Oh, no, I'm willing to do some of the work! I just don't have the ability to transport and precisely cut up a sheet of MDF. Assembly and finishing is no problem. But if I'm not going to save much money...

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll definitely look into that. I know that room placement is critical, and I've done plenty of experimenting and measuring with a db meter, graphs, averages, etc. The spot I have for my sub is pretty good. I do love Audessy EQ, too.

Puppet,
The issue is that there are only a few subwoofer kits available and these really aren't DIY since all you are doing is assembling them the design is made by someone else using the modest components put into the kit and you don't really save all that much money over the commercial completely finished option like SVS/HSU. Essentially these are just commercial subs that you assemble yourself in an effort to save maybe $150. As John says you haven't left any room for savings in there.

The number of raw enclosure kits that you can order as a flat pack are even more limited currently. There are usually only a few sizes or designs unless you go true custom which gets very expensive. Typically the flat enclosures will need some modification to suit your particular needs as well. Building your own enclosure is a huge part of the process and savings.

In other words these options are very generic while real DIY is completely custom or as much so as you need it to be to fit your exact situation. However this requires either money or lots of work. Sometimes both. You have a very specific set of requirements including very small size, a price cap, use of a plate amp. very nice finishing, etc. Also you do not wish to make the enclosure yourself which limits you to the pre-rolled kits available or the pre made cabinets which often don't fit into your criteria. Something quite good could be put together for $1000 but it will require a lot of effort on your end and the finishing quality would depend on you.

These are the places that DIY typically saves(Not kits)

#1. Use more drivers, more powerful drivers, bigger drivers etc...
#2 Use larger or more enclosures (efficiency and deep bass output increase substantially)
#3 Build the things yourself.
#4 Use pro amps instead of plates (Much higher watt per $ return)
#5 adapt the system to your exact situation or desires.

Commercial manufacturers have a lot of things to consider including shipping costs, warranty, looks, size and manufacturing costs which in a lot of cases end up defining how the unit takes shape long before considering how it performs acoustically. When you apply all of those same restrictions to a kit or DIY effort you will find that it is much more difficult to realize substantial gains over the commercial unit.

For example you can buy a compact 15" vented powered sub with a rather nice finish for under $400. If you give a guy around here $400 and ask him to produce a sub system that outperforms it sonically that wouldn't be too hard. Now ask a second guy to do the same thing but he also has to keep the sub the same size or smaller and it must be finished just as well. I doubt he will be able to do it all. The economies of scale afforded by the manufacturer simply can't be competed with at that level IME.
Edited by Ricci - 11/12/12 at 9:37am

Ricci,

Thanks for the info. I think you've put it very nicely.

I think ID companies change this model a little. They can afford to put acoustic performance higher on the list of priorites. These guys are audio enthusiasts who are free to create whatever they want as long as they can find customers for it. For mid-fi and lower hi-fi, they take some of the incentive out of DIY, do they not?

I saw pictures on the forum here of some subs with incredible cabinet work. It really inspired me to try something nicer-looking than a shiny black cube.

I know this is OT, but on you mention plate amps vs pro. It seems like car sub amps would be a good bang for the buck, wouldn't they? And they could be mounted on/in the sub?

You're not likely to find a car audio amp that has the same options something like the rack amps with built in DSP. Plus, you'd need to convert power.

"Oh, no, I'm willing to do some of the work! I just don't have the ability to transport and precisely cut up a sheet of MDF. Assembly and finishing is no problem. But if I'm not going to save much money..."

then get a behringer inuke3000dsp amp $400 and two rss460ho 18" drivers $250 ea and wait for the 3.5-4.0 cubic foot flat pack kits from erich at around $125 ea.

now you have two enclosures with higher sensitivity, flexible eq, more power per cab, etc. all you have to do is the finishing work--duratex or birds eye maple, it is up to you.

performance would be equal to about 2.5-3.0 of one hsu uls15.

I appreciate the suggestion. Has anyone built this?

I think you are missing the point. Flat packs aren't diy, and don't really save you money. And you don't get to customize the design and squeeze out every last bit of performance. But to answer your question... if you have an attic, just put a couple of folded horns up there, with the mouths pointing through some fake heating vents. Can't beat that with $2000 retail. Got a basement? What about an infinite baffle setup. With these options, you don't even see a little sub in the room, you see nothing. Maybe this has already been suggested though, I can't keep track of this thread...

Someone is in the process of building something very similar, so you should have your answer shortly.

If you drive a Ferrari and live in a malibu mansion, just get a Thigpen Rotary sub and end it there
I believe you get more performance for less, then you upgrade (or add more), again for less. Who says commercial buyers don't upgrade? And when they do , they more than likely sell the old stuff for a large loss...
LOL! I am sanding my 2nd DIY now, and have another in the hopper!
T-nuts are definitely not the best choice for MDF. Hurricane nuts are most likely the better choice. I use threaded inserts since they come with my kits and I use gorilla glue with them. As for the comment about the weatherstrip from local hardware store, I disagree. My drivers and PRs are REAAAALLY stuck on there with closed-cell weatherstrip. I had to pry them off slowly with a lot of force. (3/8" wide, 1/4" thick)
The simple way and proven as well!! You don't even need screws, as long as you have the patience to wait a day between each panel (for the glue to dry). No priming needed if you use Duratex as well, which also does a good job at hiding imperfections.

^^ good advice. The only reason I recommend screwing the panels together is that you can throw a box together on your day off, and finish it the next day. If you have the usual sat and sun off, it just takes a weekend and a little bondo. If you use real wood and want to stain it, it would certainly be easier to skip the screws rather than deal with trying to match wood putty with the stain.

I always glue and screw. Heh. Countersink those screws and get a putty close enough and even though in daylight it is a little clear where you did the putty, once I got the boxes down in the theater, you could see them at all from even a foot away

i came across this thread that does just that!

Yep, I read that one. Very interesting. I would have kept things a little more equal - they were auditioning single subs and multiple subs together. It's a little hard to get a fair comparison that way.

Yeah, I'd thought about that.
Edited by Puppetboy - 11/14/12 at 12:38pm

I glued my first one, and for the one I just finished, I glued & screwed. I found you get progress faster this way, especially since the wood shop is only open 3 days/week.

When I build I use either screws or a braid nailer. Screws for big boxes and the nailer for the smaller ones. Clamping and waiting to dry is not possible as it's much to slow.

I don't like the big sub comparison thread because there's not a good DIY LLT entry. The dual-daytons would have been much more impressive in 400 liter ported cabs.

How about these buddies?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1388343/how-easy-to-source-parts-and-build-a-quick-llt

Because it's realistic to throw a LLT in the back of your ride and transport it anywhere, muchless a long way from home.

Wait? Nevermind, that's not very realistic at all...

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?

Hahaaahahaha....

Touche. That is the best one up I've ever seen.

Not my intent to beat a dead horse, but here is another glaring example...

DIY Dayton HO $400 + $300(amp)

vs

Velodyne DD18+ $5,000

i will be once erich has the boxes out, i might use a EP4k but the result will be similar

Gorilla83 built 2 dual opposed cabs running on a Crown XLS 5k Here

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435795/first-diy-project-for-a-guy-looking-to-upgrade-multiple-sealed-18s/0_100