Help me select a good Whole Home Audio System. - Page 3

+1, discuss Nuvo with a couple local installers.

They can sell you the hardware, or install. Discuss options for DIY takeover of the system, after they install the first zones. It's a lot of money, for a GC, GC Expander, and MPS4/MPS4E.

Appreciate the input. I will start contacting some local Nuvo dealers next week and get some pricing for a full DIY install. I did call HTD today and the only downside that was readily apparent to me was that they are limited to 12 zones total, and the way the plans on my house are laid out is for a 16 zone system. That seems really high, so I would think that I could collapse it to a 12 zone system -- for example in my fitness room I have a sauna/steam shower/workout area separated into 3 separate zones that could probably just be a single zone.

Other than receiving source metadata and selecting sources from the keypad, is there any other advantage that the Nuvo system has over the HTD system? From what I have been reading in other discussion threads, the Sonos system provides a much better Internet streaming system and control interface on a tablet than the Nuvo MPS4/MPS4E. Some people like the sonos so much that they rack them up in their basement and just put an IPOD right into the wall to act as the keypad. I don't have any experience with either, though.

Also, is getting software updates going to be a big deal if I do buy the Nuvo system online, without using a local dealer? I wish they would just retail this stuff through Best Buy

Thanks,

Tim

This is going to be my approach. And there's a Sonos module for iRule, so I can control everything from one app, versus having to exit the iRule app to get to my audio control. When all is said and done, it will end up being a more expensive solution than some others, but I can add on at my own speed. I'll start with 4 zones (3 connect amps and one connect to my Denon AVR) and will add on as I want.

Home run those speakers, though, and combine at the amp end. But yes, those sounds like a good set to combine. Note that keypad-based systems don't have "direct" ties between a keypad and a set of speakers. Meaning, they are all just control devices for the system, and are typically "assigned" to one zone for ease of use. The NuVo systems (and many others as well) can assign multiple keypads to a single zone (or the other way 'round). So you could place three keypads in one zone. Or control three zones from one keypad.

If you can fit into fewer zones, yes, it can be a big savings (at least initially). I've got really 10 zones squeezed into eight at the moment, to avoid the expense of the expansion system, and for my current usage model, it works fine.

The HTD and any other keypad-based system will allow source selection and volume control (obviously). The menu-driven keypads and display of metadata from supported sources is THE big feature difference, and is a huge leap in functionality. But having mobile device access to the sources does provide for an alternative solution that can approach a similar level of usability.

I don't know if I'd call it "much better". The Autonomic / NuVo apps work just fine. The Sonos certainly gets the edge, and is likely to improve and add services at a better rate than the MPS4 app (which is probably "done"). I'd really like to see some hands-on reviews of the new NuVo wireless systems that compete head-on with the Sonos...

iOS6 with the "Guided Access" single-app mode can now be a decent solution, IMO, for a wall-mounted keypad. Before iOS6, this was clumsy at best.

The NuVo P3100 was designed to compete for folks who are racking multiple Sonos units. Essentially three units in a 1U chassis. Again, haven't played with the UI in person - really want a head-to-head shootout with Sonos.

Not a huge deal in that you should be able to get it, but quite frankly there hasn't been much change in a while on the base system, and I wouldn't expect any new features/services to be added to the MPS4.

Well, not Best Buy... Let's face it, anything that requires home wiring is not going to be for the HTiB crowd... But NuVo did announce that they are selling the wireless systems officially to end users directly via Parts-Express and Smarthome. So you'll pay MSRP as if you bought from a dealer, but you'll be buying from an authorized source. Although, really, this has been true for a long time. The difference may be a change to the support policy, though, you might not be asked to "call your dealer" on those two systems... We shall see. NuVo's new owners may have more plans and the resources to allow them to scale up to allow for this (and be able to walk the fine line with the direct vs. custom install model).

Jeff
Edited by jautor - 1/11/13 at 11:15am

Within three years, the major manufacturers will abandon their proprietary keypads (as sonos did a year ago). They cannot dream of competing on a cost/power basis with iOS an Android. The battle is over.

You only have to watch what happened with PoS (cash register) systems - the iPad has crushed the current market.

I am a fan of Sonos:
1. Pay for zones as you need them, stick it in the basement
2, Every PC, iPad, iPod, iPhone and android device is a remote. Can't find one, borrow your wife's
3. 30 seconds to configure
4. YOUR WIFE WILL USE IT!! Don't ignore this. You want budget for your next toys? Don't make your sound system require programming and crap wall panels. Everyone I know with Sojos point out that it is actually used by women.

But even if you choose otherwise, please get a system that comes with smartphone integration, not panels. That is where it is going.

I have in-wall keypads (Nuvo GC), 2 iPads, and 3 iTouches, in the house. I use the GC every day, but almost never with iOS. KPs are just insanely convenient and fast. I was initially going to replace a KP with a wall-mounted iPad, but not now, after using it a couple years. I may mount an iPad next to the Nuvo KP, but it won't replace it. Single tap of a button, power on. Tap again, power off. 1-2 taps for volume up or down, press and hold power for all KPs off. Very easy to scroll to another favorite. Just stupid easy.

Edit - and my wife, who has an iPad glued to her hand, also never uses the iPad for control, and she LOVES the Nuvo GC too.

I disagree, to an extent... The general purpose mobile device will never be as good as a dedicated keypad for a number of reasons. But the economics of the technology and consumers' expectations of both price and functionality have been dramatically altered by the pervasive smartphone... Do people use them as wall displays, sure. Do they work, sure. Can something better be done, yes.

I fully expect we'll see much lower-priced, but purpose-built keypads in the near future - call it the "next generation" of these products. Wouldn't surprise me if Sonos made one as an "in-wall, dedicated Sonos controller". And the guts of those devices are very likely to be a mobile phone-class processor running Android, swapping PoE for the battery and 3G.

Which is why I always push folks to ensure they have cat5e running to their potential keypad locations - them's gonna be Ethernet real soon now. And yes, if they're not, they're gone. Period.

The issue for future keypads is going to be the direct comparisons to the iPod Touch (comparisons to subsidized phones will happen, but aren't valid) in terms of price. I'll admit it's going to be somewhat of a challenge to offer a, say, even a $300-400 keypad that "appears" to have the same or less functionality than a $239 iPod. $900 color keypads, that's just a really hard sell to anyone that looks at the bottom figure with concern.

In a lot of areas, the iPad (or tablets in general, but the iPad wins a lot of these because it's a single-design-target for accessories) is a disruptive technology, and is replacing low-end systems in a lot of markets, with what *can* be somewhat clunky solution. But they're going to follow the "disruptive curve" and eat up from the low-end assuming the entrenched "proprietary" systems don't do something to adapt...

Jeff

Jeff,
Fair points. And I did run cat5e to keypad locations, as you suggest.

I do believe there is a role for fixed controls, but I think that proprietary will go the way of Nokia and Motorola.

This market is just way too small right now to support quality interface design, device design, and low cost manufacturing.. As a result, suppliers will have to "cheat" and build on android or use iPads.

I can imagine android-based devices that boot to a HA control screen, but are manufactured by Samsung. I can see Lutron or Leviton acquiring or copying a smaller company to deliver a powered in-wall device mount.

But the days of Russound ET al building and maintaining their own custom controllers is over.

Pre-wiring for flexibility is the right answer. We don't know what the future will bring, at least, not for sure... But if the wall-mount keypad goes the way of the dodo, you're only out a few bucks in cat5e wire. If it goes a different way, you'd be sorry you didn't have those wires in place...

The word "proprietary" gets thrown around a lot. If you don't think Apple is proprietary, I have a Lightning connector to show you...

Well, just about every company "cheats" then already. Very few firms do all of that work in-house. The scale would kill you on cost and complexity. Any of these companies will simply hire a contract manufacturer/developer/designer for various chunks of the work, which will leverage the same supplier and component ecosystem that the mobile phones have created. Using an OS from another company is not cheating - no one in the right mind starts building a computer-based product from scratch with zero software... In fact, it's the opposite - I'll use whatever hardware makes sense given what OS and software is available that I can use.

They won't acquire a manufacturer - they'll just hire one (for example, say, the one Apple uses!) to do that work. Android may be a fine choice, but done properly, users may not even recognize it in the final product... There's lots of gas pumps and kiosks running Windows (ok, you can sometimes tell - we've all seen stupid Windows dialog boxes on busted kiosks - my favorite being a Blue Screen on one of the marquees on the Las Vegas Strip years ago...).

Certainly a challenge, but I think it's the wireless / table-top controllers that are doomed, as they directly compete with the iPad and so forth. Wall-mounted controllers, even if they have similar guts, will function better as "task-specific" devices, not the general-purpose computer / Internet access device. You don't need to play Angry Birds on the wall station. And you don't want to have to move from one app to another to turn on lights, then adjust the thermostat, see today's weather, etc. etc.

Jeff

Haven't gotten a hold of a Nuvo dealer yet, but that is on my list for next week. Quick question on speakers for in-ceiling since I have not run in-home audio before. Any preferences on 2-way/3-way for music in non-surround rooms? Most of my zones are just 2 ceiling speaker systems, while 2 zones are going to be setup for 7.1 sound on a separate system from the in-home audio amplifier that will be home run to the basement

Polk Audio RC80i 2-way ceiling speakers -- $130 a pair on Amazon

Driver Configuration1X 8" mid / woofer, 1x 1"tweeter
Frequency Response Curve35 Hz - 20kHz
Audio Sensitivity90 dB
Total Harmonic Distortion<1% MHz
Impdedance8 ohm
Speaker Driver Material TypePolypropylene
Peak Power Handling - Speakers50 watts
Maximum Speaker Depth (inches)3.5 inches
RMS Power Range - Amplifiers130 watts

Pyle PDIC80 2-way ceiling speakers -- $54 a pair on Amazon
8'' Midbass Speaker
1.5'' High Temperature Voice Coil
Directable 1'' Titanium Dome Tweeter
4-8 Ohm Impedance

Yamaha NS-IW480CWH 8" 3-Way In-Ceiling Speaker -- $162 a pair on Amazon
Driver Configuration1x 8" woofer, 2x .75" Tweeter
Frequency Response Curve50 Hz - 28 kHz
Audio Sensitivity 86 dB
Impdedance 8 ohm
300 Watts Rated Peak Power
Frequency Response: 55Hz-22kHz

You may want to compare those to the Monoprice 8" speaker as I've heard good things from them for non Home Theater use.

My suggestion... pick up some decent 6.5" speakers. It's far easier to upgrade 6.5" than 8". Once you install 8", you're kinda stuck with that size. It's much easier to make the hole larger than it is to decrease the hole size.

Generally if the room is large enough for 2 speakers, 2-way are better, IMO, though others disagree.

3-way are better for half baths, wiring closets, and hallways, again IMO.

If you can take an iPod, a 3.5mm-to-RCA cable, an RJ45 patch cable, and any speaker(s) with you (or if they can provide any/all of that to test), you can plug in the unit, attach an iPod as a source, and use the RJ45 patch cord to direct connect a keypad (to the NuVoNet jack). It should boot, produce keypad display, prompt you for a keypad zone (just pick one, you can change it later). Then you can select a source and make sure it produces sound out of at least one zone amp. You could repeat that for all six keypads and zones, but probably overkill.

At a minimum, plug it in and attach a keypad with a patch cord. If the keypad lights up, goes through the setup, you're probably fine, especially if it appears to be new-in-box. The odds of a broken amp circuit compared to a DOA unit are probably slim

Make sure there are six keypads, the EZport wall plate, and the software. Those are the expensive / critical components. Everything else is cheap and easily replaceable.

Jeff

Keep in mind you still need to buy the MPS4.

If he's a good guy, I hope he would take it back if it doesn't work. Not an easy way to test it, until it's home. Do you know where he lives?

The program is sent to the GC via an RS232 connection. Since you likely don't have a PC with that connection, you'll need a USB to serial adapter. I think most current adapters would work fine; some older models had troubles.

Read the install manual several dozen times, so you understand how to set it up.

Good deal! The Elite has some additional features the primary one being the ability to pull music from a NAS or other drive on your network. But IMO if you just sync a reasonable amount of medium-bitrate stuff to the MPS4's internal 320GB drive, you'll probably have more than enough. I tend to use the Pandora and Internet Radio functions more, anyway... Also, navigating large libraries through the apps and especially the keypads can be tedious, so keeping a subset of your library for WHA usage can be a better answer.

And go for the server, not the tuner - most of your local AM/FM stations are probably on the internet anyway. Check the TuneIn database to see if they're there - so you can get them without a separate tuner.

Jeff

The MPS4 will support four audio streams (hence the "4"). Now, how flexible those are in terms of duplication of sources - someone with hands-on with one in multi-source usage will have to say. I don't know if, for example, two people can listen to different Pandora stations at the same time. Certainly, access to the digital library won't be a problem, and I assume it would provide four separate TuneIn radio streams. It's the account-based services (SiriusXM, Pandora, Rhapsody) that I don't know the limitations... Hopefully Neurorad will chime in...

Even though it may not mention it, the MPS4 should have the same IP control as the Elite (since it's just an API, and I have it available on the old software-only MusicPort). Perhaps they disabled it, but that would surprise me...

But yes, I believe those are the difference and I agree with your assessment. If you had a 2nd location to sync to, there would be a lot of benefit to the Elite.

They stopped shipping the CD in the box a few years ago (don't know exactly when). Send an email to NuVo tech support and explain the situation, they should give you access to the software to download.

The keypads aren't that deep and the cat5e cable can bend easily, but you'll be better off using low-volt rings instead of boxes (ring essentially the same thing except without a back).



(this is a "new work" box, there's old-work retrofit boxes, too)

Jeff

I've read that Arlington LV old work rings are superior to Carlon, if you're ordering online.

I've bought all orange Carlon Old work LV rings from Home Depot.

Junction box, though, for garage, if you want to keep it 'to code'. Garage drywall fire rated, in some areas of the world, but others not. I have LV rings everywhere, except my garage.

Use the tiny holes in the corners of the LV rings to mark the drywall cutouts.

When mounting a keypad at eye height, in the vicinity of other plates (switches/dimmers, alarm keypads), I find eyeballing is superior to a level. You don't want it level, you want to match the existing plates.

Search for the correct keypad eye height. I think it's 60" from the floor, IIRC, but pick the height that's best for you and your SO.

I use this keyhole saw, but a folding one would be better, for a tool bag or tool box.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=OFDQZ1W-eqw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DOFDQZ1W-eqw
I use an EZRJ45 crimp tool and EZRJ45 connectors for adding male connectors to my category cables.

I use Wago Lever Lock connectors to splice speaker cable conductors, though you may not have a need.