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The Next Step in Calibration

post #1 of 20
10/19/12 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
I ran my first calibration with Calman 5 last night. I used the Advanced Calibration workflow and I have mixed feelings about my results. Here's a summary of my calibration:

Display: Panasonic 50" UT50
User Controls: Brightness, Contrast, Color, Tint, Sharpness
Available in Service Menu: 2 pt white balance

Test Patterns: AVS Rec 709 v. 1.2 (possibly v. 1.2b. I downloaded it from SpectraCal but the disc home screen says v. 1.2).

There is no CMS available so primaries and secondaries can't be adjusted outside the controls listed above.

Calman 5 gave me similar results to HCFR, but my RGB levels and saturation Delta E values are a bit different. Perhaps that's because HCFR is Delta E and Calman is Delta E 2000. I also felt a lot more confident about getting RGB balanced at 30 IRE and 80 IRE.

Here's the report generated after finishing my calibration:

20121018report.jpg


My test video was Diamonds Are Forever Blu Ray, and I thought the blacks seemed to have quite a bit of red in them. I dialed in my Warm Default white balance settings on the Normal color temperature to try and see a before and after and when comparing them it seemed default had better black as opposed to seeming red. I know it's possible it's supposed to look like that, but I think shadows and night scenes were meant to be pure black. Looking at the RGB graph my low end white balance seemed elevated compared to high end white balance. I figured both should be at 0. To accomplish this, according to the graph, should I increase blue? The Delta Es are pretty good, though.

I wasn't sure if there's a way to adjust the primaries and secondaries or of that will get better by correcting my low end white balance?

Edit: Added report as attachment. It's a scan from a printout, so I apologize for the quality of it. I can update it later with the original. 20121018report.jpg 833k .jpg file
Edited by anikun07 - 10/19/12 at 8:17am
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post #2 of 20
10/19/12 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I ran my first calibration with Calman 5 last night. I used the Advanced Calibration workflow and I have mixed feelings about my results. Here's a summary of my calibration:
Display: Panasonic 50" UT50
User Controls: Brightness, Contrast, Color, Tint, Sharpness
Available in Service Menu: 2 pt white balance
Test Patterns: AVS Rec 709 v. 1.2 (possibly v. 1.2b. I downloaded it from SpectraCal but the disc home screen says v. 1.2).
There is no CMS available so primaries and secondaries can't be adjusted outside the controls listed above.
Calman 5 gave me similar results to HCFR, but my RGB levels and saturation Delta E values are a bit different. Perhaps that's because HCFR is Delta E and Calman is Delta E 2000. I also felt a lot more confident about getting RGB balanced at 30 IRE and 80 IRE.
Here's the report generated after finishing my calibration:
20121018report.jpg
My test video was Diamonds Are Forever Blu Ray, and I thought the blacks seemed to have quite a bit of red in them. I dialed in my Warm Default white balance settings on the Normal color temperature to try and see a before and after and when comparing them it seemed default had better black as opposed to seeming red. I know it's possible it's supposed to look like that, but I think shadows and night scenes were meant to be pure black. Looking at the RGB graph my low end white balance seemed elevated compared to high end white balance. I figured both should be at 0. To accomplish this, according to the graph, should I increase blue? The Delta Es are pretty good, though.
I wasn't sure if there's a way to adjust the primaries and secondaries or of that will get better by correcting my low end white balance?

Can you post your report as an attachment ? I'd be curious to see it.
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post #3 of 20
10/19/12 at 8:21am
Thread Starter 
Attached.
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post #4 of 20
10/19/12 at 8:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I ran my first calibration with Calman 5 last night. I used the Advanced Calibration workflow and I have mixed feelings about my results. Here's a summary of my calibration:
Display: Panasonic 50" UT50
User Controls: Brightness, Contrast, Color, Tint, Sharpness
Available in Service Menu: 2 pt white balance
Test Patterns: AVS Rec 709 v. 1.2 (possibly v. 1.2b. I downloaded it from SpectraCal but the disc home screen says v. 1.2).
There is no CMS available so primaries and secondaries can't be adjusted outside the controls listed above.
Calman 5 gave me similar results to HCFR, but my RGB levels and saturation Delta E values are a bit different. Perhaps that's because HCFR is Delta E and Calman is Delta E 2000. I also felt a lot more confident about getting RGB balanced at 30 IRE and 80 IRE.
Here's the report generated after finishing my calibration:
20121018report.jpg
My test video was Diamonds Are Forever Blu Ray, and I thought the blacks seemed to have quite a bit of red in them. I dialed in my Warm Default white balance settings on the Normal color temperature to try and see a before and after and when comparing them it seemed default had better black as opposed to seeming red. I know it's possible it's supposed to look like that, but I think shadows and night scenes were meant to be pure black. Looking at the RGB graph my low end white balance seemed elevated compared to high end white balance. I figured both should be at 0. To accomplish this, according to the graph, should I increase blue? The Delta Es are pretty good, though.
I wasn't sure if there's a way to adjust the primaries and secondaries or of that will get better by correcting my low end white balance?
Edit: Added report as attachment. It's a scan from a printout, so I apologize for the quality of it. I can update it later with the original. 20121018report.jpg 833k .jpg file

Red does look high in the lower end and all the saturations look high also to my amatuer eye. Isnt the goal to get the rgb as close to 100% across the board ? Seems all three are elevated in you graphs. This is not my work but where I ended up on my ST30 after Chad B's efforts. ST30 CAL.pdf 268k .pdf file
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post #5 of 20
10/19/12 at 9:08am
Thread Starter 
Should 100% saturation or 75% saturation be used for taking readings? 75% saturation for white is the "White" reading, and then there's 100W, for 100% saturation white. I used 100% saturation for this report.
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post #6 of 20
10/19/12 at 9:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Should 100% saturation or 75% saturation be used for taking readings? 75% saturation for white is the "White" reading, and then there's 100W, for 100% saturation white. I used 100% saturation for this report.

That's a good question, my understanding is that 75% should be used for all color work. I have yet to give Calman 5 an actual spin for a Calibration session. I am just basing my observations on other Cal reports I have seen. What were your end settings btw and are you shooting for a particular light output, for example 30ftl ?

Have you tried running thru the basic worklflow,? I found the advanced workflow to be a little confusing(not a sleight on the product, it is just my lack of cal experience)..
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post #7 of 20
10/19/12 at 9:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunon View Post

That's a good question, my understanding is that 75% should be used for all color work. I have yet to give Calman 5 an actual spin for a Calibration session. I am just basing my observations on other Cal reports I have seen. What were your end settings btw and are you shooting for a particular light output, for example 30ftl ?
Have you tried running thru the basic worklflow,? I found the advanced workflow to be a little confusing(not a sleight on the product, it is just my lack of cal experience)..

No, I didn't run through the basic workflow because I was curious to see the next step up. I think I understood it all right and I used the help quite a bit.

My pictures settings are for Cinema Warm2
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 48
Color 49
Tint: 50 (+/- 0)
Sharpness 0

I'm still not quite clear on settings contrast. I understand the method and what it's achieving, but the contrast pattern on my TV shows up to around 243 from a setting of like 50 all the way up to 100. So I did near white reads to look for clipping, so I tried at different levels and went with 90. So that was based on clipping and how linear RGB looked. With HCFR I just aimed contrast at roughly 35 ftL, I actually don't know what my Calman calibration is set to, probably 38-40 ftL would be my guess.

Do you prefer to calibrate with small windows, large windows, or full screen? I've read that small works best, but the AVS 709 1.2 doesn't have small windows on it. Also, does it matter whether I use Calman or HCFR patterns?
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post #8 of 20
10/19/12 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

No, I didn't run through the basic workflow because I was curious to see the next step up. I think I understood it all right and I used the help quite a bit.
My pictures settings are for Cinema Warm2
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 48
Color 49
Tint: 50 (+/- 0)
Sharpness 0
I'm still not quite clear on settings contrast. I understand the method and what it's achieving, but the contrast pattern on my TV shows up to around 243 from a setting of like 50 all the way up to 100. So I did near white reads to look for clipping, so I tried at different levels and went with 90. So that was based on clipping and how linear RGB looked. With HCFR I just aimed contrast at roughly 35 ftL, I actually don't know what my Calman calibration is set to, probably 38-40 ftL would be my guess.
Do you prefer to calibrate with small windows, large windows, or full screen? I've read that small works best, but the AVS 709 1.2 doesn't have small windows on it. Also, does it matter whether I use Calman or HCFR patterns?

Definitely dont want to use full screen that will cause ABL to kick in, I used the medium size windows on the 709 disk, some folks have had success with the smaller APL windows but I didnt get very good results. I had problems knowing what my true light output was because of ABL didnt really know where I was at until Chad measured with smaller windows. Those settings look pretty good what happens to your delta e errors for color when you drop it down a couple of clicks ? I always tried to minmize the error for the 3 primaries Delta L, you want them to be as close to each other as possible and red is the most critical to get right I believe. For tint the secondaries it would be minimizing the Delta H errors. But in the end it all comes down to a accurate greyscale as a foundation. Those setting look pretty resonable to me.
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post #9 of 20
10/19/12 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 
I see in the Calman 4 documentation to use 75% saturation except for 100% white
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post #10 of 20
10/19/12 at 10:37am
you really need to turn down the Color control until you minimize the deltaL for the primaries... the current setting for Color is way too high based on the report
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post #11 of 20
10/19/12 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I see in the Calman 4 documentation to use 75% saturation except for 100% white

that's 75% stim in v4, not saturation
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post #12 of 20
10/19/12 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

Should 100% saturation or 75% saturation be used for taking readings? 75% saturation for white is the "White" reading, and then there's 100W, for 100% saturation white. I used 100% saturation for this report.

you are confusing stimulus (aka amplitude) with saturation

in the "CMS" section of the workflow the 100W and 75% gray readings are for calculating both the white reference and the native gamma at 75% stim and the colors are all 75% stim, 100% sat
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post #13 of 20
10/19/12 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

you really need to turn down the Color control until you minimize the deltaL for the primaries... the current setting for Color is way too high based on the report

That's what I was attempting to say smile.gif Thanks for the assist
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post #14 of 20
10/19/12 at 12:25pm
Thread Starter 
I tweaked everything a little bit and it seems like the readings are pretty good this time around.

calmanRGB.jpg

calmanprisec.jpg
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post #15 of 20
10/19/12 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anikun07 View Post

I tweaked everything a little bit and it seems like the readings are pretty good this time around.
calmanRGB.jpg
calmanprisec.jpg

looks much better smile.gif
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post #16 of 20
10/19/12 at 2:10pm
BTW, which workflow is that?
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post #17 of 20
10/19/12 at 2:17pm
Thread Starter 
Those are in Quick Analysis. I did the calibration in basic, but it didn't give any kind of good report/color readings, so I tried that instead. It's pretty in-depth with the readings it takes. It has primary and secondary steps at 20%, and there was also wavelength. Pretty neat.
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post #18 of 20
10/21/12 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

looks much better smile.gif

Your results look much better nice job, get rid of the reds in blacks ?
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post #19 of 20
10/21/12 at 3:25pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah the red is gone. And I think it may have been partly Diamonds Are Forever. When I watched the scenes again I thought the blacks looks like they had yellow in them, but I think that's just a warmth of how the blacks got exposed on the film or during editing/remastering.
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post #20 of 20
10/22/12 at 4:14pm
Thread Starter 
How much picture correction can be done using an HTPC? I'm hoping gamma and a 21-point white balance can be achieved by using my PC more as a multi-media device. Is there anything special that needs to be done when calibrated a PC? Is there a certain order of operations? I tried using the ATI CCC software on my computer (different from my HTPC, CCFL LCD Screen) and I started by setting white balance at 100% white on the monitor, and then did a 2 pt. white balance using ATI CCC and adjusting RGB individual channels of brightness and contrast. It looks okay, but trying to set the brightness to begin with seemed unreliable because I couldn't see the black bars until it brightness was pretty high. How much color correction can be done on the PC/video processor side of calibration?
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