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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 43

post #1261 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

Zombie (or any other videophile), can you give me some advice? For 2D ONLY, which would be better. The new RS4810 or a used RS35 (older model with handpicked parts)? My seating distance will be 1.6 SW. I appreciate the response. smile.gif

Without knowing what e-shift 2 will do to the image, we cannot give you the answer yet.

If it were just e-shift 1, I would say go for the RS35.
post #1262 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Zombie friend can you please tell me a projector name that doesnt make soap opera effect or a slight effect. i really hate soap opera effect thank you

In 2D on low setting:

Mitsubishi 9000D, it's the only motion flow I would ever use so far. I don't know how they did it, but to me it was so close to perfect...
post #1263 of 8029
Yesterday I went to see a demo of the Sony HW50 and the Panasonic PT-AT6000E (PT-AE8000U US version), they were set up in a light controlled room with a 104" 16:9 1.0 screen.
PJ/seating distance was about 14,5 feet. I'm not an expert but these are my observations:

In 2D the HW50 had the nicer picture, especially in darker scenes the black looked better on the Sony and it had a more "cinematic" look. Both PJ were running at the same time and by blocking one or the other lens I could see the (subtle) difference. The HW50 was also brighter (HW50 and AT6000 both in ECO).

In 3D the HW50 was a lot brighter but the image had a lot more "flicker" compared to the AT6000. With the AT6000 i didn't notice the flicker at all.
Can this difference be cause of the 240H vs 480Hz panels?
Edited by Flash3d - 11/25/12 at 7:06am
post #1264 of 8029
So I'm on the fence between the hw50 or the new jvc4810, does anyone live near Bolingbrook, IL that wouldn't mind a quick demo of the Sony or comparable Jvc? I can't seem to find a dealer that has either.
post #1265 of 8029
So I visited a dealer in the Orlando area yesterday just to take a look at the Epson 5020 and it looked great and I can grab one for just under $2500. I already have a JVC X3 for movies and a Epson 8350 for tv and gaming. I love the JVC for 2D but 3D leaves a lot to desire. The 5020 3D looked way better but 3D is not my primary concern, If I can find that holy grail all around projector I would buy it and sell off the other 2.

Has anyone here gone through this type of upgrade from a JBC to the new 5020 and if so can you share your thoughts?
post #1266 of 8029
I'm in the same position as the past couple of posters. I've narrowed down to the Sony HW50 and JVC X55 (think same as 4810). I've found a place where I can demo the new JVC's this week. I saw last years models and was impressed with 2D (3D is an after thought for me and will rarely be used). Can't wait to see the new eshift2. The dealer had an engineering sample in a few weeks ago and said it was impressive (of course what else would he say, he is selling JVC). I have demoed last years model in Sony ( the HW30 ) and it too looked good for 2D. So far though I haven't found a place to demo this years HW50 model. I'd have to say that between last years models the JVC was slightly better for me (2D eval only) but difficult to say for sure because I couldn't do and A/B comparison with both in the same place with same conditions. What the JVC can do in black detail without a dynamic iris is impressive, however the whole lamp issues I keep reading about scares the crap out of me. Important for me is a bright, sharp picture once calibrated because when we entertain the room becomes muti-use and I understand the new Sony HW50 is noticeably brighter than last years version. Price difference for me is about $600 apples to apples between the 2. Might come down to drawing out of a hat.
Zombie or anyone, help !!
post #1267 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Dude why didn't you say so... I'll hook you up. PM sent.
Hope had a fantastic Turkey Day (as with you all on this thread!)! biggrin.gif

You are a kind soul! I very much appreciate the offer! smile.gif Shot you a PM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

The fact that he's even struggling to see ghosting is at least very encouraging (especially on a pre-prod).

No doubt about it. All good signs so far as far as blu ray is concerned. Still very curious about 120hz content as it seems only the Epsons right now can do this well as far as non DLPs go. Just noticed a few 8000 owners have mentioned how bad the ghosting is for 120hz content which I was curious about. Only one left to find out about is the JVC. Should not be long smile.gif

Hope you and the family had a great Turkey day.........I am still trying to recover from the food/drinking!
Edited by Toe - 11/25/12 at 9:02am
post #1268 of 8029
Ive pretty much settled on getting the 5020 for my theatre when its complete in the next couple months but Ive been keeping my eye on any deals for the w7000 for Black Friday/Cyber Monday. Logic being for a few hundred dollars Ill go 5020 all day but start reaching $1000 difference i might reassess. Checked Newegg's website because I know they've had good deals before and they list the w7000 as "discontinued". I thought the consensus was this was the model going forward and there was no new model incoming? Is this just a Newegg thing or could there possibly be something incoming perhaps at CES in January?
post #1269 of 8029
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash3d View Post

Yesterday I went to see a demo of the Sony HW50 and the Panasonic PT-AT6000E (PT-AE8000U US version), they were set up in a light controlled room with a 104" 16:9 1.0 screen.

PJ/seating distance was about 14,5 feet. I'm not an expert but these are my observations:
In 2D the HW50 had the nicer picture, especially in darker scenes the black looked better on the Sony and it had a more "cinematic" look. Both PJ were running at the same time and by blocking one or the other lens I could see the (subtle) difference. The HW50 was also brighter (HW50 and AT6000 both in ECO).

In 3D the HW50 was a lot brighter but the image had a lot more "flicker" compared to the AT6000. With the AT6000 i didn't notice the flicker at all.
Can this difference be cause of the 240H vs 480Hz panels?

if your sensitive to flicker, you can see a bit of a difference between the HW50 and the 5020 (480hz similar to the Panasonic) but I don't think it's going to bother most folks. The brighter 3D image will make it stand out more.

Also, check to see if the 3D brightness setting was set to 'max' on the HW50. It should be lowered down 1 position. This can help reduce any residual ghosting and knock down some of the perceived flicker. turning on FI to low in 3D can help as well.


edit: for anyone on the fence making a decision, there's going to be plenty of feedback on the new JVC's in the next 2 weeks here and on other AV forums.
post #1270 of 8029
Zombie friend can you please tell me a projector name that doesnt make soap opera effect or a slight effect. i really hate soap opera effect, epson 5020 makes soap opera effect?
post #1271 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

edit: for anyone on the fence making a decision, there's going to be plenty of feedback on the new JVC's in the next 2 weeks here and on other AV forums.

Looking forward to it!!! Will you be getting the RS46 soon too?
post #1272 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

if your sensitive to flicker, you can see a bit of a difference between the HW50 and the 5020 (480hz similar to the Panasonic) but I don't think it's going to bother most folks. The brighter 3D image will make it stand out more.
Also, check to see if the 3D brightness setting was set to 'max' on the HW50. It should be lowered down 1 position. This can help reduce any residual ghosting and knock down some of the perceived flicker. turning on FI to low in 3D can help as well.
edit: for anyone on the fence making a decision, there's going to be plenty of feedback on the new JVC's in the next 2 weeks here and on other AV forums.

Zombie:
With these HW50 3D brightness setting you change the brightness of the glasses? And did you notice a difference in perceived flicker between the 5020 and the hw50 in 3d?

thanks
post #1273 of 8029
This may sound strange but the most worried I am about the new jvc's is the 23db that it will have......
post #1274 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

...edit: for anyone on the fence making a decision, there's going to be plenty of feedback on the new JVC's in the next 2 weeks here and on other AV forums.

For someone like me who sits 2x screen widths (106" diag screeen) would you say that the RC of the Sony has a more visible effect on the picture than e-shift1? I've heard from a number of folks that at 2x e-shift doesn't really make much if any noticeable difference. To that end, I wonder if e-shift2 will offer advantages that are more appreciable at 2x seating distance.

I am very happy with my VW95, but I do miss the absolute inky blacks of the JVC in mixed scenes. If the JVC 4810 and give me at least the same 3D quality as the VW95 does, I would seriously consider the JVC this year. Maybe even the model just under that one, since I have a Radiance XS for color management and especially if e-shift2 is still not going to be too useful at 2x... Thoughts?
post #1275 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphinc View Post

So I visited a dealer in the Orlando area yesterday just to take a look at the Epson 5020 and it looked great and I can grab one for just under $2500. I already have a JVC X3 for movies and a Epson 8350 for tv and gaming. I love the JVC for 2D but 3D leaves a lot to desire. The 5020 3D looked way better but 3D is not my primary concern, If I can find that holy grail all around projector I would buy it and sell off the other 2.
Has anyone here gone through this type of upgrade from a JBC to the new 5020 and if so can you share your thoughts?

Never mind, I decided I cannot part with my JVC so I ordered a Epson 3020 to replace my Epson 8350 and I expect much better 3D than the JVC as well. smile.gif
post #1276 of 8029
I just placed an order with AV science sales for an RS4810U. Pretty excited smile.gif Mike, cell phone service around my house is horrible so I apologize for the difficulty I had hearing you on the phone. It doesn't help that my hearing isn't so great either lol.
post #1277 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

For someone like me who sits 2x screen widths (106" diag screeen) would you say that the RC of the Sony has a more visible effect on the picture than e-shift1? I've heard from a number of folks that at 2x e-shift doesn't really make much if any noticeable difference. To that end, I wonder if e-shift2 will offer advantages that are more appreciable at 2x seating distance.
I am very happy with my VW95, but I do miss the absolute inky blacks of the JVC in mixed scenes. If the JVC 4810 and give me at least the same 3D quality as the VW95 does, I would seriously consider the JVC this year. Maybe even the model just under that one, since I have a Radiance XS for color management and especially if e-shift2 is still not going to be too useful at 2x... Thoughts?

I thought the VW95 was pretty much on par with the RS45/X30 as far as black levels go. Is that not correct? Also, do you use FI in 3D on your VW95? If so, you'll miss it on the JVC as FI isn't active in 3D. One reason why I've considered going from my RS45 to an HW50 is not only because of ghosting in 3D but also because motion looks poor in 3D. I just can't make the switch because I have a feeling that I'm going to miss the higher native contrast in 2D. Unfortunately, most people aren't overly picky about this and even on this forum I can't really get a good idea of what to expect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphinc View Post

Never mind, I decided I cannot part with my JVC so I ordered a Epson 3020 to replace my Epson 8350 and I expect much better 3D than the JVC as well. smile.gif

I believe Joseph Clark switched from an RS40 to an Epson 5010 and was very pleased with the 3D upgrade it gave and the 5010 was good enough but did miss the higher native contrast of the JVC.
post #1278 of 8029
I traded a JVC RS45 to another AVSer who wanted to try it because of the raves JVC gets here on AVS. He wasn't interested in 3D, just 2D. He sent me his Epson 6010. Ironically, he didn't care for the JVC and sold it eventually. He discovered that he really preferred the Epson's motion handling and frame interpolation. I think it's better, too. It goes to show you that people are going to respond to these projectors differently, no matter the conventional wisdom. I loved the improvement in 3D performance. The Epson handles 24p Blu-ray 3D, as well as all the 120 hz material I throw at it, with barely noticeable ghosting.

However, the 6010 passed 1700 hours recently, and the ghosting is definitely worse. An aging lamp seems to affect the Epson's 3D just as it does the JVC's. It's just not as pronounced. At its worst, the Epson has not matched the terribleness of the JVC's dark ghosting at its best. (I suspect that at 2,000 hours or so I won't be able to say that anymore.) OTOH, at its best the JVC's 3D blows the Epson away. That is, in dark scenes the JVC's 3D can look breathtakingly good. It's simply that the goodness can never overcome the drag-me-out-of-the-3D-movie awfulness of its dark ghosting. That changes a little when I compare the RS40's 3D to the RS45's. The RS40 is a better 3D projector, IMO, than the RS45 until the RS40 hits a 200-400 hours on the lamp. Then it's a tossup. The RS40's 3D dark ghosting performance is barely within the threshold of acceptability for me when its lamp is new. That's what made me so mad about JVC's claims of "improved" 3D performance last year. It was anything but. I won't believe anything about the JVC's performance until Jason's report.

If some displays are bad because of light ghosting, and the JVCs bad because of dark ghosting, the Epson's one 3D weakness may be with 3D in the "gray" area. Even with a brand new lamp, the Epson has a tendency to ghost its worst in scenes with lots of shades of gray. I watched Imax Sharks last night on the 6010. There are lots of murky underwater shots, and these tended to show the greatest amount of ghosting. Given, this was at over 1,700 hours, and it's a lot worse now than it was when the lamp was new. But even new, gray scenes were much more likely to exhibit minor ghosting. Higher contrast scenes almost always present the bigger challenge to 3D displays, but that hasn't been my experience with the Epson. I don't have a clue why that might be, or if my experience is unique. Maybe some other Epson owners can give their impressions.
post #1279 of 8029
Do we have a ship date for the jvc yet? Or a estimate
post #1280 of 8029
Joseph -- please let us know what you think of your 3D Bee. I am really curious about just how well this thing will do 2D to 3D conversion.


Here's Art's Epson vs. Panny comparison:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectors/pt-ae8000_vs_hc5020/index.php
post #1281 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

Do we have a ship date for the jvc yet? Or a estimate

I spoke to Mike today from AV Science and he said the first batch should be shipping next week. I suspect people will be getting theirs in the next couple of weeks.
post #1282 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Joseph -- please let us know what you think of your 3D Bee. I am really curious about just how well this thing will do 2D to 3D conversion.
Here's Art's Epson vs. Panny comparison:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectors/pt-ae8000_vs_hc5020/index.php

Very interesting, i was close to buying the ae8000 and now it seems the 5020 trounces it.

sigh.. just remembered the god awful response time on the 5010, still that way with 5020? i play xbox, and even movies id be worried about the 100ms+
Edited by omegaslast - 11/25/12 at 8:15pm
post #1283 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

I spoke to Mike today from AV Science and he said the first batch should be shipping next week. I suspect people will be getting theirs in the next couple of weeks.

Keep in mind that is JVC shipping to distributors and distributors to us. II think we are still looking at the end of the first week of December before we have them available for shipping to customers. Getting close. For those on the fence, the preorder ends, when these projectors start shipping. smile.gif
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post #1284 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Very interesting, i was close to buying the ae8000 and now it seems the 5020 trounces it.
sigh.. just remembered the god awful response time on the 5010, still that way with 5020? i play xbox, and even movies id be worried about the 100ms+

I would be looking at the Sony HW50 then.
Reply
Reply
post #1285 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Joseph -- please let us know what you think of your 3D Bee. I am really curious about just how well this thing will do 2D to 3D conversion.
Here's Art's Epson vs. Panny comparison:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectors/pt-ae8000_vs_hc5020/index.php

I ordered the 3D Bee last night, so I should get it this week. I missed the half price sale, but it's $100 off through tomorrow, CyberMonday.

I find myself using 2D to 3D conversion in spurts (not sports smile.gif). Since my original Samsung 3D plasma had conversion built in, it was the only way I could get "new 3D content" for several months. It was either use the conversion or re-watch Monsters vs Alens or the Panasonic demo disc I got with my first player. Fortunately, the Samsung does fairly pleasing conversion some of the time. Here's how I would rate the built-in conversions I've seen, from worst to best:

Sony 3D TVs (in the big box stores)
Panasonic 3D Blu-ray players and TVs (owned the players, saw some conversions at BB)
Epson 6010
Samsung 3D TVs (significantly better than Sony and Panasonic)
LG passive (significantly better than the Samsung)

Sony and Panasonic don't do much more than push the entire 2D image back into the distance. Worthless. The Epson is similar, sometimes a tiny bit better, often worse. Samsung conversion gives a convincing sense of depth if there are enough cues, but faces and bodies are almost always flat. Oddly, it does collars fairly well, even though they usually seem to jut out a bit too far. My LG 47" LM7600 passive display does the best job with conversion that I've seen so far. I can see into the throat of the MGM lion as it roars. biggrin.gif Eyes and noses even look 3D on the face (albeit a little freaky at times smile.gif). The effect is far more convincing than what the Samsung does.

I'm looking forward to the 3D Bee, but I'm not terribly hopeful. I may end up sending it back. But if it does a half-way convincing job even for limited types of programs, I'll probably keep it. Apparently, the Teranex is the cream of the crop right now, but $5,000 is a lot to spend for conversion that is almost certainly guaranteed to fail much of the time. Short of doing it manually, conversion is bound to fail. We're a long way off from real time conversion that's totally convincing - if it ever happens. I bought the "iRobot 3D" conversion that used JVC technology (partially automated and partially manual), and it had instances of very unconvincing scenes (especially crowd shots), no better IMO than what my Samsung plasma does at times.

I understand completely why many people are not even a little interested in conversion. It's hit and miss, and mostly miss, but IMO it can be a fun diversion once in a while. In spurts.
Edited by Joseph Clark - 11/25/12 at 9:32pm
post #1286 of 8029
Good news on JVC shipping. But i still don't have my seats lol
post #1287 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I would be looking at the Sony HW50 then.

I have been smile.gif

Its just way too far out of my price range..
post #1288 of 8029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I traded a JVC RS45 to another AVSer who wanted to try it because of the raves JVC gets here on AVS. He wasn't interested in 3D, just 2D. He sent me his Epson 6010. Ironically, he didn't care for the JVC and sold it eventually. He discovered that he really preferred the Epson's motion handling and frame interpolation. I think it's better, too. It goes to show you that people are going to respond to these projectors differently, no matter the conventional wisdom. I loved the improvement in 3D performance. The Epson handles 24p Blu-ray 3D, as well as all the 120 hz material I throw at it, with barely noticeable ghosting.
However, the 6010 passed 1700 hours recently, and the ghosting is definitely worse. An aging lamp seems to affect the Epson's 3D just as it does the JVC's. It's just not as pronounced. At its worst, the Epson has not matched the terribleness of the JVC's dark ghosting at its best. (I suspect that at 2,000 hours or so I won't be able to say that anymore.) OTOH, at its best the JVC's 3D blows the Epson away. That is, in dark scenes the JVC's 3D can look breathtakingly good. It's simply that the goodness can never overcome the drag-me-out-of-the-3D-movie awfulness of its dark ghosting. That changes a little when I compare the RS40's 3D to the RS45's. The RS40 is a better 3D projector, IMO, than the RS45 until the RS40 hits a 200-400 hours on the lamp. Then it's a tossup. The RS40's 3D dark ghosting performance is barely within the threshold of acceptability for me when its lamp is new. That's what made me so mad about JVC's claims of "improved" 3D performance last year. It was anything but. I won't believe anything about the JVC's performance until Jason's report.
If some displays are bad because of light ghosting, and the JVCs bad because of dark ghosting, the Epson's one 3D weakness may be with 3D in the "gray" area. Even with a brand new lamp, the Epson has a tendency to ghost its worst in scenes with lots of shades of gray. I watched Imax Sharks last night on the 6010. There are lots of murky underwater shots, and these tended to show the greatest amount of ghosting. Given, this was at over 1,700 hours, and it's a lot worse now than it was when the lamp was new. But even new, gray scenes were much more likely to exhibit minor ghosting. Higher contrast scenes almost always present the bigger challenge to 3D displays, but that hasn't been my experience with the Epson. I don't have a clue why that might be, or if my experience is unique. Maybe some other Epson owners can give their impressions.

Does anyone know the actual reason for why ghosting gets worse with lamp age? I'm curious.
post #1289 of 8029
We're guessing that it's heat, but the only ones who know for sure are probably the engineers, and they're not talking. smile.gif
post #1290 of 8029
So . . . Anyone seen the BenQ w1070? I know it's less than $3000 but on paper it looks better than the w7000 (brighter, better blacks, 6x color wheel) but half the price. Any chance you can get one to test Zombie?
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