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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 44

post #1291 of 8015
Just to get back into JVC/Crosstalk what are the best scenes to test it with? I've heard about Sammy's Adventures, Despicable Me etc. but is there an actual list of specific scenes/times? The reason I ask is that I can quite easily visit a local vendor (5 minute drive from our office where I currently sit) that has the pro prod X55. So if I knew exactly what to test I could pay them a visit the check those worst cases with the X55. Just got Sammy's, got most IMAX stuff, going to look for Despicable Me today. If I get my X55 this week I want to be ready to torture test it's 3D, but if not it is really not that much work for me to pay the vendor a visit and check how those scenes behave there. I think I got some 50-60 3D movies so I actually might have most test stuff already if I only know what scenes to look for.

I believe there is no actual 24p frame packed test material available? All the specific crosstalk tests/clips I've seen are SbS 50/60 Hz so they are not much use in analyzing the JVC as they behave quite diffrently with 24p vs higher frame rates.
post #1292 of 8015
I had the chance to see a JVC X55 serial production unit at the weekend (but only for 20 minutes or so).
In 3D there was nearly no ghosting visible! It was even a bit better than the Sony I think!
But with motion the Sony is better. In 3D anyway because of the FI and in 2D both with the FI on in low mode, the Sony is still better.

The new JVC RF glasses are ok, but a bit fragile!

In high lamp mode the X55 was very loud for my taste! In low lamp I didn't really hear it, but I was about 8-10 ft away and it was a big demo cinema. At home you'll hear more I think.

In 2D with MPC (e-shift2) on we tried different presets, with the factory settings the picture always seemed to be a bit articial, like the HW50 with the RC set too high. We couldn't do a direct comparison unfortunately and I need to play more with the 3 sliders in the MPC menu...
post #1293 of 8015
Maybe the reports of the improved 3D have to do with the new lamp used in these new JVC models? If 3D worsens as the bulb ages, maybe the bulb of the older JVCs were never really where they needed to be and got progressively worse. Just a thought, I know I'm not very technical but projectors aren't my forte.
post #1294 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

So . . . Anyone seen the BenQ w1070? I know it's less than $3000 but on paper it looks better than the w7000 (brighter, better blacks, 6x color wheel) but half the price. Any chance you can get one to test Zombie?
I support this request. A DC3 chip 1080p 3D DLP with RGBRGB 6x speed color wheel for 1000$ is more tempting than anything for me right now.
post #1295 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

I support this request. A DC3 chip 1080p 3D DLP with RGBRGB 6x speed color wheel for 1000$ is more tempting than anything for me right now.

Here. Here. Audiovideohd.fr reviewed it recently and compared to the w7000 found it slightly quieter with excellent sharpness, no ghosting (which they did find with the benq glasses on he w7000), better contrast, but with less 'depth' in 3D... No iris seemingly, so while better contrast, blacks (especially in 2d) are likely pretty grayish ( my guess, not the review)... Also, only positive lens shift from top of screen to 30% above and pretty short throw compared to most HT projectors... NOT a good candidate for an HP screen. Why oh why could they not put a better DMD in the w7000?
Edited by dougri - 11/26/12 at 6:50am
post #1296 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

Just to get back into JVC/Crosstalk what are the best scenes to test it with? I've heard about Sammy's Adventures, Despicable Me etc. but is there an actual list of specific scenes/times? The reason I ask is that I can quite easily visit a local vendor (5 minute drive from our office where I currently sit) that has the pro prod X55. So if I knew exactly what to test I could pay them a visit the check those worst cases with the X55. Just got Sammy's, got most IMAX stuff, going to look for Despicable Me today. If I get my X55 this week I want to be ready to torture test it's 3D, but if not it is really not that much work for me to pay the vendor a visit and check how those scenes behave there. I think I got some 50-60 3D movies so I actually might have most test stuff already if I only know what scenes to look for.
I believe there is no actual 24p frame packed test material available? All the specific crosstalk tests/clips I've seen are SbS 50/60 Hz so they are not much use in analyzing the JVC as they behave quite diffrently with 24p vs higher frame rates.

Dinosaurs Giants of Patagonia starting at about 6.5 minutes in where the scientist gets out of the vehicle (as I remember?) is a torture test for the JVCs as far as blu ray goes. Do you have this disc? If I were able to test out a new JVC, this is the first disc I would throw in to see if any improvements have been made.

I am most looking forward to hearing your report with games since this is by far the area (120hz 3d) where the JVCs need the most improvement as far as ghosting goes.
Edited by Toe - 11/26/12 at 7:17am
post #1297 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

We're guessing that it's heat, but the only ones who know for sure are probably the engineers, and they're not talking. smile.gif

A number of manufacturers are shipping two lamps with their projectors so that when ghosting gets really bad you just swap out the problem. By the time the second lamp is toast you're ready for something new anyway. biggrin.gif
post #1298 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Nemo 3D was an excellent conversion. The only problem I see if that can't seem to get any pop-outs on these conversions

Excuse me, Nemo 3D is not just a "conversion" like "Alice in wonderland 3D" or "Clash of the Titans 3D", or any other fake 3Ds.
Nemo was re-rednered twice with two virtual cameras from two different points for each eye, like any 3D animation. So Nemo 3D is a 100% real 3D.
post #1299 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Here. Here. Audiovideohd.fr reviewed it recently
Yes, I'm aware of Kraine's review. But kraine and zombie often give different views on the same projector. And their measured values for brightness and contrast is different too. So it'd be interesting to know whether there will be consistency with this projector or not. But first things first, we're all eagerly awaiting for zombie's report on Mitsubishi HC8000 rolleyes.gif
post #1300 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

Just to get back into JVC/Crosstalk what are the best scenes to test it with? I've heard about Sammy's Adventures, Despicable Me etc. but is there an actual list of specific scenes/times? The reason I ask is that I can quite easily visit a local vendor (5 minute drive from our office where I currently sit) that has the pro prod X55. So if I knew exactly what to test I could pay them a visit the check those worst cases with the X55. Just got Sammy's, got most IMAX stuff, going to look for Despicable Me today. If I get my X55 this week I want to be ready to torture test it's 3D, but if not it is really not that much work for me to pay the vendor a visit and check how those scenes behave there. I think I got some 50-60 3D movies so I actually might have most test stuff already if I only know what scenes to look for.
I believe there is no actual 24p frame packed test material available? All the specific crosstalk tests/clips I've seen are SbS 50/60 Hz so they are not much use in analyzing the JVC as they behave quite diffrently with 24p vs higher frame rates.

Check out Monsters vs Aliens, chapter 7. The President walks up a set of wooden stairs to communicate with the alien robot. The long shot of his body against the bright sky showed severe dark ghosting on my RS45. It's one of the first shots I use to check for it. Also check out the suspension cables of the Golden Gate Bridge fight scene in chapter 12. Any bright daytime scene that has thin dark objects against a bright background should work - telephone poles, tree branches, cables. That's all I have time for now. Gotta run.
post #1301 of 8015
There was a CyberMonday deal that I couldn't resist, so I bought the JVC DLA-X35. tongue.gif

The dealer said their JVC shipment is coming in tomorrow.

I tried to justify the extra cost of the Sony (for good gaming lag), but just couldn't do it. And, the Mits HC8000 looks like it won't have the black levels or brightness that I would've liked. So ... time to do some prep work in the HT!
post #1302 of 8015
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilya Volk View Post

Excuse me, Nemo 3D is not just a "conversion" like "Alice in wonderland 3D" or "Clash of the Titans 3D", or any other fake 3Ds.
Nemo was re-rednered twice with two virtual cameras from two different points for each eye, like any 3D animation. So Nemo 3D is a 100% real 3D.

understood on the technique. The point is, it wasn't made for 3D to begin with, so elements like pop-outs aren't really there. The depth and overall 3D PQ does look excellent though.

Sammy's remains the ultimate 'show off' 3D animation for extreme depth and popouts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Yes, I'm aware of Kraine's review. But kraine and zombie often give different views on the same projector. And their measured values for brightness and contrast is different too. So it'd be interesting to know whether there will be consistency with this projector or not. But first things first, we're all eagerly awaiting for zombie's report on Mitsubishi HC8000 rolleyes.gif

I've read about the 1070, it looks interesting for the low cost and a good replacement for the Acer 5360 since it also supports Nvidia's 3D setup. The lack of a full lens shift and the noise level could be an issue depending on the setup.

i'm still waiting for the 3D glasses on the HC8000. I just rebuilt one of my HTPC's that I use for the lag tests. I'll start with that on the HC8000 this week.
post #1303 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

Maybe the reports of the improved 3D have to do with the new lamp used in these new JVC models? If 3D worsens as the bulb ages, maybe the bulb of the older JVCs were never really where they needed to be and got progressively worse. Just a thought, I know I'm not very technical but projectors aren't my forte.
I don't think it's the lamp. How could it be?
And it's also not the glasses.
They changed something in the panel driver I think.
post #1304 of 8015
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

I don't think it's the lamp. How could it be?
And it's also not the glasses.
They changed something in the panel driver I think.

I saw your post earlier regarding the X55, what 3D movies did you get a chance to see?
post #1305 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I saw your post earlier regarding the X55, what 3D movies did you get a chance to see?

zombie please can you tell me there is a strong opera effect on epson 5020 or not? and what about sony hw50es have soap opera effect? sorry for my english thank you
post #1306 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

I had the chance to see a JVC X55 serial production unit at the weekend (but only for 20 minutes or so).
In 3D there was nearly no ghosting visible! It was even a bit better than the Sony I think!
But with motion the Sony is better. In 3D anyway because of the FI and in 2D both with the FI on in low mode, the Sony is still better.
The new JVC RF glasses are ok, but a bit fragile!
In high lamp mode the X55 was very loud for my taste! In low lamp I didn't really hear it, but I was about 8-10 ft away and it was a big demo cinema. At home you'll hear more I think.
In 2D with MPC (e-shift2) on we tried different presets, with the factory settings the picture always seemed to be a bit articial, like the HW50 with the RC set too high. We couldn't do a direct comparison unfortunately and I need to play more with the 3 sliders in the MPC menu...

Thanks for the report. You confirmed what I expected that even without the ghosting the JVCs will still have motion issues in 3D. I suppose I'm biased here as I prefer FI in 2D as well.

Did the contrast black levels look similar in 3D as well to the X55? Also, did the HW50 look a bit brighter in 3D as well?
post #1307 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

I don't think it's the lamp. How could it be?
And it's also not the glasses.
They changed something in the panel driver I think.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to think lamp aging causes increased ghosting. They seem go hand in hand. When the lamp is new, it's not only brighter, it's hotter. Increased heat could allow the panel to shift back and forth from light to dark more easily. That is, the hotter the chip, the more easily pixels might be able to transition from fully on to fully off or vice versa. Apparently, the D-ILA panel has more trouble switching from fully off to fully on than from fully on to fully off. Thus, dark parts of the image stay visible longer. That's what I call dark ghosting, where a dark telephone pole ghosts against a bright sky. The pixels displaying the pole can't transition fast enough back to the bright sky, so we see the ghost image. OTOH, bright pixels can transition faster, so we don't see double images of bright objects against a dark background. As General Monger comes out of the darkness of the door toward Susan in Monsters vs Aliens, we don't see his "eyes" ghosting. As the lamp ages, and the heat decreases, ghosting of every kind becomes much more pronounced.
post #1308 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I saw your post earlier regarding the X55, what 3D movies did you get a chance to see?

guess?

Sammy of course! Intoduction scene with the palm where the older JVCs showed much ghosting, X55 not, and HW50 also not. Then the sandpit at the beach where the turtles hatch from their eggs. Usually with the JVCs Sammy had at least 3 eyes there... with the X55 only two and with the HW50 also. But in the same scene we could see some ghosting at an eggshell with the Sony, which wasn't visible with the X55!
Unfortunately there was not more time to check other scenes but it seemed quite good what we saw regarding ghosting on the X55.
Brightness in 3D was good, I think on par with the Sony. But we couldn't compare them directly and if the difference would be some 10 lumens you wouldn't recognize. In 3D, still all the shutter projectors have to be called dark.

Motion is still a weak point of the JVCs. Even in 2D with the FI in low mode on both projectors, the Sony was better, with not too much soap effect for my taste.

I can say nothin about black levels of the X55, not in 2D and not in 3D at the moment.
In 2D there is no question that it will be better than the HW50 in dark scenes with little light, but usually you recognize this only in direct comparison I think.
post #1309 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

When the lamp is new, it's not only brighter, it's hotter.
Are you just guessing here or is this documented somewhere?

If the lamp draws always the same power, it emits one part of it as visible light (normally a very small percentage) and the other part as heat. If an old lamp draws the same amount of power but emits less visible light, the heat dissipation then should be higher!
Or is this a proven fact that an older lamp draws less power?
post #1310 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Are you just guessing here or is this documented somewhere?
If the lamp draws always the same power, it emits one part of it as visible light (normally a very small percentage) and the other part as heat. If an old lamp draws the same amount of power but emits less visible light, the heat dissipation then should be higher!
Or is this a proven fact that an older lamp draws less power?

Just guessing. I'm not an engineer. But what is clear is the relationship between an aging lamp and ghosting. Virtually everyone has reported it. The physics of the process I'll leave for someone else. smile.gif
post #1311 of 8015
It seems to me that the complaints about motion handling on the JVC might be related to the general inability of the D-ILA chips to transition as fast as other technologies. We know that the JVCs historically have been capable of much higher native contrast. Perhaps the tradeoff all along has been high contrast for a slower panel? It seems to me that what we perceive as ghosting in 3D mode on the JVCs might translate to "softer" motion in 2D mode. If the individual pixels are transitioning more slowly, doesn't it follow that we'd pick up on that as motion that looks less "clean" in 2D, especially if we're using frame interpolation? If the panel is changing the 2D image five times as fast as normal (24x5=120), wouldn't it "smear" in 2D, just as 120hz 3D ghosts? Just a thought that's been bouncing around in my head but which I never posted before.
post #1312 of 8015
Hm, without an FI I found both the HW50 and the X30 "smeary" in motion. I saw no big difference there. I always wanted to have a good FI without too much soap effect, the Sony has this, the JVC not. With JVC I see a little bit more soap opera effect in low mode and more "stuttering" in slow pans, although using the FI..
post #1313 of 8015
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Hm, without an FI I found both the HW50 and the X30 "smeary" in motion. I saw no big difference there. I always wanted to have a good FI without too much soap effect, the Sony has this, the JVC not. With JVC I see a little bit more soap opera effect in low mode and more "stuttering" in slow pans, although using the FI..

thanks for the feedback. on the topic of FI in 3D - I noticed something that a number of HW30->HW50 owners have reported on.. the FI in 3D (when set to low) appears to be closer to the 'high' setting. In other words, the FI is more obvious in 3D on the HW50 than it was on the HW30.

I don't know if they changed the aggressiveness of the FI in 3D mode, but imo, it's more noticeable in 3D mode than it is in 2D mode. It doesn't bother me, but I am seeing the same thing others have reported.
post #1314 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post

Just to get back into JVC/Crosstalk what are the best scenes to test it with? I've heard about Sammy's Adventures, Despicable Me etc. but is there an actual list of specific scenes/times? The reason I ask is that I can quite easily visit a local vendor (5 minute drive from our office where I currently sit) that has the pro prod X55. So if I knew exactly what to test I could pay them a visit the check those worst cases with the X55. Just got Sammy's, got most IMAX stuff, going to look for Despicable Me today. If I get my X55 this week I want to be ready to torture test it's 3D, but if not it is really not that much work for me to pay the vendor a visit and check how those scenes behave there. I think I got some 50-60 3D movies so I actually might have most test stuff already if I only know what scenes to look for.
I believe there is no actual 24p frame packed test material available? All the specific crosstalk tests/clips I've seen are SbS 50/60 Hz so they are not much use in analyzing the JVC as they behave quite diffrently with 24p vs higher frame rates.

I went to a local dealer to audition the RS45 last week. I only own two animated films on 3D bluray, The Lion King and Brave. Since I had loaned out Brave the choice was simple. Lion King showed significant ghosting in several scenes. The one that comes to mind is a few chapters in. Zazu is flying overhead following young Simba and Nala. In this scene it looked as if there were two Zazus flying overhead. Very easy to spot.

With that being said, I was surprised how fun watching an old animated movie like this in 3D actually was. The cells were jumping off the screen and I really liked the way it gave depth to what started as a 2D cell in the first place.
post #1315 of 8015
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by havok2022 View Post


With that being said, I was surprised how fun watching an old animated movie like this in 3D actually was. The cells were jumping off the screen and I really liked the way it gave depth to what started as a 2D cell in the first place.

Lion King is a tough movie for crosstalk. It is amazing how they made it into 3D, they did the same thing with Beauty and the Beast and it worked really well. We'll have to see how these 2 titles look on the new JVC models.
post #1316 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Hm, without an FI I found both the HW50 and the X30 "smeary" in motion. I saw no big difference there. I always wanted to have a good FI without too much soap effect, the Sony has this, the JVC not. With JVC I see a little bit more soap opera effect in low mode and more "stuttering" in slow pans, although using the FI..

Another thing I have always missed with any animated 3d title (there are a ton of these obviously) on the RS40/45 is FI. Even with the FI on setting 3 on the JVC which apparently is not the best out there vs competitors from various reports, I find the effect very pleasing and I wont watch an animated movie in 2d without this now. I am very disappointed that the new JVCs STILL wont have this. frown.gif From what we learned last year though, apparently this is a hardware limitation, so it is going to take what I assume would be a panel revision to get FI implemented for 3d. Maybe next year?
post #1317 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Yes, I'm aware of Kraine's review. But kraine and zombie often give different views on the same projector. And their measured values for brightness and contrast is different too. So it'd be interesting to know whether there will be consistency with this projector or not.:

This is why I would love to have Zombie test one. To me it seems like BenQ took out everything that isn't "essential" to putting their best possible picture up on the screen, (frame interpolation since the dlp's are so good at motion anyhow, horizontal lens shift since most people can mount their projector in the middle of the room, the iris since it's noisy, blacks out, and many people turn it off anyway, etc) and kept all the good stuff, brightness, sharpness, improved contrast without the iris, and kept the cost WAY down. Awesome if it's true.
post #1318 of 8015
For those on the fence, Visual Apex has the 5010 on a Cyber Monday deal that's a steal! Just ordered mine smile.gif
post #1319 of 8015
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Here's some initial impressions:

Sony HW50 Overall - This is a nice projector for the price point. I liked my HW30 and this HW50 is a good upgrade. Better brightness, Sharpness (due to the RC) and very good 3D. I do wish it had the power lens and native optical sharpness of the VW95 lens, but that might not be possible at this price point. We do need to investigate the buzzing in 3D mode as I can definitely hear it during the movie.
.

Zombie, your comments above comparing the HW30 to HW50 indicate better brightness. I think the published specs are about 30%. Can you comment a little more in this regard. Was it really that much brighter without sacrificing proper color balance? Thanks for all your efforts in this shootout. Very valuable insight.
post #1320 of 8015
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjsbuyer View Post

Zombie, your comments above comparing the HW30 to HW50 indicate better brightness. I think the published specs are about 30%. Can you comment a little more in this regard. Was it really that much brighter without sacrificing proper color balance? Thanks for all your efforts in this shootout. Very valuable insight.

Hi, glad you found the thread useful. The HW50 is definitely brighter in 2D than the HW30 with everything else being the same (D65 calibration). The 3D doesn't seem to benefit quite as much, I measured ~900 lumens in 3D on the HW30 and ~1064 on the HW50 (both un-corrected).

it's impressive though considering the chassis, lamp and lens are the same.
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