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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 45

post #1321 of 8026
My LPE filter for the 5010/5020 6010/6020 finally came today! Sure looks like the real deal. I'll be starting up a thread with a complete analysis using an i1 Pro and Calman 5. Much thanks to AndyK48 for the translation of the instructions!!! Supposedly, according to the instructions, it bumps the native contrast on the 5010 up to 5000 from 4300. Also, the claim is around 1200 color correct lumens--in ECO. over 1600 in Normal lamp. I'll start the study when my new 5010 gets here in a couple days.
post #1322 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

My LPE filter for the 5010/5020 6010/6020 finally came today! Sure looks like the real deal. I'll be starting up a thread with a complete analysis using an i1 Pro and Calman 5. Much thanks to AndyK48 for the translation of the instructions!!! Supposedly, according to the instructions, it bumps the native contrast on the 5010 up to 5000 from 4300. Also, the claim is around 1200 color correct lumens--in ECO. over 1600 in Normal lamp. I'll start the study when my new 5010 gets here in a couple days.

very cool, please post the link here so we can follow the progress of calibrating with the LPE filter.
post #1323 of 8026
Wilco. smile.gif
post #1324 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

...Brightness in 3D was good, I think on par with the Sony. But we couldn't compare them directly...

This is surprising to hear. Did you make sure that both projectors were in the same lamp mode? The HW50 is supposed to be a very bright projector. Also, the new glasses are supposed to be brighter however for me I'm not sure how much added brightness I would see over the RS45 as I'll still be staying IR with my Xpand X104s as the new JVC glasses would be expensive to replace 6 pairs.
Quote:
...I can say nothin about black levels of the X55, not in 2D and not in 3D at the moment. In 2D there is no question that it will be better than the HW50 in dark scenes with little light, but usually you recognize this only in direct comparison I think.

This would be nice to know if true. I viewed an RS50 at a semi-local dealer back when it first came out and comparing if from memory to what I would see on my RS2 on an HP screen they both looked on par even though the RS50 should have been a slight improvement (which it very well may have been but I couldn't tell the difference without a side by side comparison). If this is true, it might be worth a change for me as even though black levels are of the utmost priority I don't like the JVCs w/o FI now that I've grown accustomed to using it. I see too much breaking up in the picture without FI and in 3D it looks bad. I can see why many do not like FI because it makes movies look like video however in my mind 3D is different as the effect is to make the experience more lifelike which looks move like video than film smile.gif.
post #1325 of 8026
Thread Starter 
In 3D mode, I measured the HW50 @ 1064 at near shortest throw on my 142". The W7000 was ~1100 (both uncorrected). It's not a far stretch to think the JVC is going to be close to this output in 3D with a 20% increase from last year.



I'm glad some of the AV reviewers are starting to use Sammy's as a benchmark, there are many tough scenes in this movie. I'm looking forward to seeing this on the 4810.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC_X-Serie_2012/JVC_DILA_2012.htm

In terms of ghosting / crosstalk but the X35 has played its strengths clearly. Even with heavy content with high contrast (eg, in the palms "Sammy Abeneteuer"), the new projector showed significantly less ghosting, than its predecessor. The difference is so significant that one can speak of a big jump in quality. It can also affect the image menu manually (Crosstalk Canceller in several stages).

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2012/jvc_beamer_2012.shtml

Next up is a 3D comparison between the 2011 models DLA-X30 and DLA-2012 model X-35 on the program. When software was "Sammy's Adventures" in 3D. The DLA-X30 with the old shutter glasses provides a direct AB comparison less detail, also, especially in the rear image planes is more ghosting seen. Colors appear slightly distorted, and there is indeed reasonable, but noticeable loss of brightness. Use the new glasses and the DLA-X35, is the faithful image detail, sharper and mainly occurs less crosstalk. Color losses are smaller, the image brightness is greater, the detail contrast excellent. Also, the entire image stability is better, also is the new shutter system less susceptible to head movements. At a second Live-example - a film about the earth at the time of the dinosaurs - is also clear that the DLA-X35 produces less visible ghosting and provides more stability in the rear image planes. Despite all the improvements - the crosstalk is completely gone yet, but now reduced to a level that enables a lot more harmonious movie experience.

Toe - I wonder if they are referring to the Giants of Patagonia 3D?
post #1326 of 8026
Glad I held out for a r46 so far atleast
post #1327 of 8026
That is very encouraging! I had not seen that before now and appreciate you posting it. They are either talking about Patagonia or Dinosaurs Alive (any other dinosaur discs I dont know about?) Either way, it sounds like a good sign for blu ray 3d.
post #1328 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

In 3D mode, I measured the HW50 @ 1064 at near shortest throw on my 142". The W7000 was ~1100 (both uncorrected).

Have you by any chance measured the lumens behind the glasses? I really do remember the W7000 being significantly less bright in 3D, & I'm wondering if that has to do with the glasses. Then BenQ doesn't have a lamp pulsing mode like the Sony, after all.

Thanks.
post #1329 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallnick View Post

So . . . Anyone seen the BenQ w1070? I know it's less than $3000 but on paper it looks better than the w7000 (brighter, better blacks, 6x color wheel) but half the price. Any chance you can get one to test Zombie?

This projector looks interesting, it would be a nice replacement for the original Acer 5360 which I still have. I'll ask some folks I know @ BQ to see if they have a model for demo.

the included glasses caught my attention. They look exactly like the original Nvidia 3D vision glasses (2nd picture, lower right), except these are DLP link.

http://www.pconline.com.cn/projector/review/1211/3060242_all.html#content_page_7

3060242_GLA2.jpg

allglasses1.jpg
post #1330 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarangiman View Post

Have you by any chance measured the lumens behind the glasses? I really do remember the W7000 being significantly less bright in 3D, & I'm wondering if that has to do with the glasses. Then BenQ doesn't have a lamp pulsing mode like the Sony, after all.

Thanks.

in the recent A/B from ~2 weeks ago, they both appeared similar through the glasses (Sony set to 1 tick below the brightest). The 5020 appeared a 'notch' brighter than both of them which makes sense since it was ~1400 in 3D (uncorrected but still decent color)

The HW50 looked great after I calibrated it through the glasses. I didn't get a chance to re-measure the lumen drop but It wasn't much since the gain/offset changes were relatively minor.

The W7000 also responded very well to the calibration behind the glasses. Avengers 3D looked nice after the colors were corrected.

W7000-cal.jpg

W7000-cal2.jpg

W7000-cal1.jpg

W7000-cal3.jpg
post #1331 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

That is very encouraging! I had not seen that before now and appreciate you posting it. They are either talking about Patagonia or Dinosaurs Alive (any other dinosaur discs I dont know about?) Either way, it sounds like a good sign for blu ray 3d.

I just saw the Dinosaurs Alive the other day, I don't think there are any others besides those 2. Both are rough with light backgrounds and the dark rendered dinosaurs in the foreground.

At least these guys aren't using Avatar as demo material.. smile.gif
post #1332 of 8026
Zombie where has coder been?
post #1333 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

thanks for the feedback. on the topic of FI in 3D - I noticed something that a number of HW30->HW50 owners have reported on.. the FI in 3D (when set to low) appears to be closer to the 'high' setting. In other words, the FI is more obvious in 3D on the HW50 than it was on the HW30.
I don't know if they changed the aggressiveness of the FI in 3D mode, but imo, it's more noticeable in 3D mode than it is in 2D mode. It doesn't bother me, but I am seeing the same thing others have reported.

I feel that I have to stress this point really. re the Sony HW50 - I watched Puss In Boots 3D with FI on last night, looked great - BUT prospective owners should know that with live action material, for me at least, it's far far too aggressive. I love it in low mode on 2D but to me the soap opera effect is too strong in 3D. I'd recommend people demo if FI is important to them in 3D. Just tried The Avengers in 3D and I can't watch it with FI on, it looks like those badly set up TV's in stores where everything is set to max. For me a crucial point is that low and high look the same - I'm by no means an expert but Zombie, do you think it's possible that low mode hasn't been set properly and somewhere in the service menu there is an option to tweak it?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
post #1334 of 8026
Hi, I can confirm that the FI with the HW50 in low mode looks stronger in 3D than in 2D, one could say more "soapy". But it's a thing of getting used to it..

Since the projector does 48 Hz per eye with 24p 3D material, it can only process one interpolated frame per eye. So the only difference between low and high could be at which speed of motion the projector creates interpolated frames or not.

I wished there would be official statements of the manufacturers how exactly their FIs work (but of course they'll regard that as intellectual property..)

I'm looking forward to see "The Hobbit" in 3D and 48fps in cinema in a few weeks to see if it'll also look soapy..
post #1335 of 8026
It seems that my initial impression of 3D on the new JVC's are being backed up by early reviews. I saw the prototypes at the CEDIA show in Sept and brought Sammy with me to try. On Sat morning I got to the show early when they were not busy and got the JVC people to try Sammy in 3D. They only had the old glasses so I can't comment on how things will look with the new ones. That being said, I feel that there was much less ghosting that with the previous models. We played about 10 minutes of Sammy's Adventure and I could hardly notice the ghosting on the trees and the start of the film. It is really noticeable on the older models. I did not check for flicker which was also a problem with last years models. After leaving the JVC booth I also tried Sammy on the Mits 8000 and as expected there was no ghosting at all.
The 3D picture on Sammy looked very good. Waiting for Zombie's reviews.
post #1336 of 8026
That's a really good point re. The Hobbit. I do recall Zombie saying however that the FI in 3D mode ('low') on the HW30 wasn't as strong, so something has apparently changed. I would love to know if it could be tweaked.
post #1337 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Hi, I can confirm that the FI with the HW50 in low mode looks stronger in 3D than in 2D, one could say more "soapy". But it's a thing of getting used to it..
Since the projector does 48 Hz per eye with 24p 3D material, it can only process one interpolated frame per eye. So the only difference between low and high could be at which speed of motion the projector creates interpolated frames or not.
I wished there would be official statements of the manufacturers how exactly their FIs work (but of course they'll regard that as intellectual property..)
I'm looking forward to see "The Hobbit" in 3D and 48fps in cinema in a few weeks to see if it'll also look soapy..

Speaking of Hobbits, will any of these projectors be able to handle Peter Jackson's new HFR 3D filmed at 48pmI wonder?
post #1338 of 8026
Good question
post #1339 of 8026
pml?

The panels would be able to show 48fps per eye (since this is whats going on at the moment with 24p "double flash" as well) but there is a) no HDMI-standard for 1080 48p framepacked an b) no Bluray standard for that format either.

720 50p framepacked would be possible (with a small speedup from 48 to 50 fps) or 1080 50p SBS. Both would have lower resolution and you don't really want that...

I think the Hobbit-movies will be released as normal 1080 24p framepacked Blurays. Switch on the FI in 3D with the Sony and you'll get your 48fps... wink.gif

This is an interesting question: Will real 48fps material look different than the 24p version of it (and there will be 24p versions of the Hobbit in cinemas, 2D as well as 3D) with an activated FI?
post #1340 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

pml?
The panels would be able to show 48fps per eye (since this is whats going on at the moment with 24p "double flash" as well) but there is a) no HDMI-standard for 1080 48p framepacked an b) no Bluray standard for that format either.
720 50p framepacked would be possible (with a small speedup from 48 to 50 fps) or 1080 50p SBS. Both would have lower resolution and you don't really want that...
I think the Hobbit-movies will be released as normal 1080 24p framepacked Blurays. Switch on the FI in 3D with the Sony and you'll get your 48fps... wink.gif
This is an interesting question: Will real 48fps material look different than the 24p version of it (and there will be 24p versions of the Hobbit in cinemas, 2D as well as 3D) with an activated FI?

Not that it fully answers your question, but you can get tickets now in 4 favors. Standard 2D, RealD 3D, IMAX 3D and HFR 3D. I doubt they'll use FI in a theater since true HFR is an option and only offered in select theaters that support it (like Dolby Atmos which I still have yet to hear).
post #1341 of 8026
you misunderstood.
I didn't refer to commercial cinemas with the FI-comment. cinemas never-ever would use any image-"improvements" like FI or DI (that is why most cinema DLP-projectors only have an on/off CR of about 2000:1).
I thought of the true 48fps version of the movie in cinema against the 24p version of it in home cinema with an FI.

by the way: The Hobbit will only be in 3D in HFR (high frame rate, 48fps), not in 2D. And also there will be no 4k versions of the film either.
Formats that the Hobbit will be distributed in:
35 mm analogue (24fps of course)
2D 2k 24fps
3D 2k 24fps
3D 2k 48fps (HFR)

and well, also the so called IMAX-version, which is also only a specially processed version of the film, and it's also only in 2k 3D and probably 48fps. (The digital IMAX today is not real IMAX anymore.. just google "Liemaxx"....)

real D, that you mentioned, is not a digital movie format, it's only one of the different techniques used in cinema to show 3D content. There's also Dolby 3D, Xpand (Shutter) and special variants of real D, like real D XLS with the Sony projectors.
post #1342 of 8026
From everything I've read here if I were to update I'd buy an Epson 6020. It has to be the best bang for the buck. I'm still amazed at what the 6010 will do, so I'll probably stay the course for another year, but who knows.
post #1343 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grazza B View Post

I feel that I have to stress this point really. re the Sony HW50 - I watched Puss In Boots 3D with FI on last night, looked great - BUT prospective owners should know that with live action material, for me at least, it's far far too aggressive. I love it in low mode on 2D but to me the soap opera effect is too strong in 3D. I'd recommend people demo if FI is important to them in 3D. Just tried The Avengers in 3D and I can't watch it with FI on, it looks like those badly set up TV's in stores where everything is set to max. For me a crucial point is that low and high look the same - I'm by no means an expert but Zombie, do you think it's possible that low mode hasn't been set properly and somewhere in the service menu there is an option to tweak it?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiohobbit View Post

Hi, I can confirm that the FI with the HW50 in low mode looks stronger in 3D than in 2D, one could say more "soapy". But it's a thing of getting used to it..


thanks for confirming, I wanted to make sure we were seeing the same thing. I recall it being less aggressive in 3D mode on the older HW30 model.

Grazza - I'm not sure if this is something that can be changed in the SM. I'm sure someone will do some exploring to see if any tweaks are possible.
post #1344 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Another thing I have always missed with any animated 3d title (there are a ton of these obviously) on the RS40/45 is FI. Even with the FI on setting 3 on the JVC which apparently is not the best out there vs competitors from various reports, I find the effect very pleasing and I wont watch an animated movie in 2d without this now. I am very disappointed that the new JVCs STILL wont have this. frown.gif From what we learned last year though, apparently this is a hardware limitation, so it is going to take what I assume would be a panel revision to get FI implemented for 3d. Maybe next year?

I don't really like the FI, especially in 3D. But I just checked out Toy Story 3 with the FI on low on the w7000 and it looked excellent. Then, I looked at a little of Finding Nemo in 3D with it on and it looked much better too. Maybe I need to use it more often. Can't wait until my Oppo 103 gets here tomorrow so I can use the 2D-3D conversion to calibrate 3D.
post #1345 of 8026
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't really like the FI, especially in 3D. But I just checked out Toy Story 3 with the FI on low on the w7000 and it looked excellent. Then, I looked at a little of Finding Nemo in 3D with it on and it looked much better too. Maybe I need to use it more often. Can't wait until my Oppo 103 gets here tomorrow so I can use the 2D-3D conversion to calibrate 3D.

the FI in W7000 does look good, nice and subtle. Can you play back 3D ISO's? Joseph Clark made a great 3D demo disk with 30, 80 and 100 IRE patterns in full frame packed 3D mode + a ton of other useful patterns. The 2D conversion works as well, but I like having it in native 3D too.
post #1346 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

It seems that my initial impression of 3D on the new JVC's are being backed up by early reviews. I saw the prototypes at the CEDIA show in Sept and brought Sammy with me to try. On Sat morning I got to the show early when they were not busy and got the JVC people to try Sammy in 3D. They only had the old glasses so I can't comment on how things will look with the new ones. That being said, I feel that there was much less ghosting that with the previous models. We played about 10 minutes of Sammy's Adventure and I could hardly notice the ghosting on the trees and the start of the film. It is really noticeable on the older models. I did not check for flicker which was also a problem with last years models. After leaving the JVC booth I also tried Sammy on the Mits 8000 and as expected there was no ghosting at all.
The 3D picture on Sammy looked very good. Waiting for Zombie's reviews.

You hit on a good point here that I keep coming back to as well which is flicker. Some of us are at a point where flicker bothers us as much as ghosting. From what we know of the new JVCs as far as same 120hz panels, etc......is there any reason to believe flicker will be improved at all? Even if the ghosting has been improved, flicker is still going to rear its ugly head on the new models which is a big negative for those sensitive to this. Throw in lack of FI (which is subjective I know, but something a lot of us enjoy and would like to have especially with the JVC motion) and I can only get so excited about 3d on the JVCs.

There is also the 120hz 3d issue which we have heard nothing about on the new models. This is the area that the JVC units are by far the weakest at with 3d. I am very curious to hear if any improvement has been made here.

As far as FI goes and for those who have seen both, how does low mode 3 on the JVC compare to low on the 7000? Is one more aggressive vs the other or are they similar?
post #1347 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the FI in W7000 does look good, nice and subtle. Can you play back 3D ISO's? Joseph Clark made a great 3D demo disk with 30, 80 and 100 IRE patterns in full frame packed 3D mode + a ton of other useful patterns. The 2D conversion works as well, but I like having it in native 3D too.

Where can I find this 3D demo disc?

Thanks.
post #1348 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

the FI in W7000 does look good, nice and subtle. Can you play back 3D ISO's? Joseph Clark made a great 3D demo disk with 30, 80 and 100 IRE patterns in full frame packed 3D mode + a ton of other useful patterns. The 2D conversion works as well, but I like having it in native 3D too.

I am looking into buying a media player that plays back ISO 3D files. I'm using the AIOS HD Media Center for my 2D play backs now.
post #1349 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I don't really like the FI, especially in 3D. But I just checked out Toy Story 3 with the FI on low on the w7000 and it looked excellent. Then, I looked at a little of Finding Nemo in 3D with it on and it looked much better too. Maybe I need to use it more often. Can't wait until my Oppo 103 gets here tomorrow so I can use the 2D-3D conversion to calibrate 3D.

How would you compare the JVC FI in low mode 3 vs the 7000 in its low mode?

Hope you enjoy the 103 as it looks like a fantastic player! I have the 93 and love it. Just recently got into streaming flack concerts through the USB on the 93 which I have not been able to do up to now with any of my players. These Oppos' do quite a bit!
post #1350 of 8026
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

How would you compare the JVC FI in low mode 3 vs the 7000 in its low mode?
Hope you enjoy the 103 as it looks like a fantastic player! I have the 93 and love it. Just recently got into streaming flack concerts through the USB on the 93 which I have not been able to do up to now with any of my players. These Oppos' do quite a bit!

I never really cared for it, I wouldn't have checked it out again until you said something about how u wouldnt watch another animated film with it off. I like the way it looked before but sometimes the image looks distorted, so that's the main reason I turn it off. I didn't get that with toy story 3, so ill be checking it out more. I do remember watching the RS55 with it on 3 with Cowboys vs Aliens. It looked great but with fast moving scenes, it looked too distorted.

I'm very curious to see how other devices hooked up to the 103 plays. I know for a fact that my htpc looks much better going straight to the projector than going through the receiver. I want to get that same blu ray quality with my cable and media player. Plus, it has a good video processor in it to upconvert everything to 1080p so that I can always activate eshift. I wish it could play back ISO files, then it would be perfect
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