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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 59

post #1741 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

i'm holding off on the 3D tests until we find out more information tomorrow about the 3D firmware update that I posted earlier. From the various info I've seen, it only affect the X35/RS46. The claim is that the ghosting is more noticeable on the X35/RS46 than it is on the X55/4810 due to a firmware issue.
There is some discussion on it in this mini-shootout:
http://www.takeoffmedia.de/journalismus/testberichte-heimkino-hardware/bildwiedergabe/beamervergleich-2012.html
and here as well:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifi-forum.de%2Fviewthread-94-12294-47.html
http://www.grobi-shop.tv/showpost.php?id=2172

Thanks for the information. Hope that it is only a firmware issue.
post #1742 of 8048
Hi Zombie,
How about a lag test?

Thanks smile.gif
post #1743 of 8048
I second the lag test if possible. Thanks! smile.gif
post #1744 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Thanks for the information. Hope that it is only a firmware issue.

If I remember correctly, I think the current firmware of my X35 is 29.001

Is this the same # as those problematic European X35's?
post #1745 of 8048
Hi, i am thinking of buying the epson 5020, i have the high power screen 119´, i am siting at 16 feet and the projector will be shelf mounted at 20 feet in the eye level. Do you think it will have to much light at 2D in Cinema/natural and eco mode? Do you advise using an ND filter?
Thanks
post #1746 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Reborn View Post

If I remember correctly, I think the current firmware of my X35 is 29.001
Is this the same # as those problematic European X35's?

I'm pretty sure my UK X35 is this firmware, but I'll check next time I switch it on. If it's only for 3D then not a big deal as I didn't buy the glasses or emitter, but if it's only a matter of a firmware update not a big issue.
post #1747 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

Hi, i am thinking of buying the epson 5020, i have the high power screen 119´, i am siting at 16 feet and the projector will be shelf mounted at 20 feet in the eye level. Do you think it will have to much light at 2D in Cinema/natural and eco mode? Do you advise using an ND filter?
Thanks

I have the same setup (same screen and size and the same distance), but using the 6010 and it works very well and looks great.
post #1748 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I'm pretty sure my UK X35 is this firmware, but I'll check next time I switch it on. If it's only for 3D then not a big deal as I didn't buy the glasses or emitter, but if it's only a matter of a firmware update not a big issue.

The dealer in Germany is claiming it needs to sent in for the update. We'll find out more info this week.

http://www.grobi-shop.tv/showpost.php?id=2172
post #1749 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

Hi, i am thinking of buying the epson 5020, i have the high power screen 119´, i am siting at 16 feet and the projector will be shelf mounted at 20 feet in the eye level. Do you think it will have to much light at 2D in Cinema/natural and eco mode? Do you advise using an ND filter?
Thanks

Ditto to Deja. biggrin.gif

I have a 6010, viewed at 12' from a 110" HP. It's really good for both 2D and 3D. This setup will put all but the finest and most advanced commercial theaters to shame! I wouldn't worry about a ND filter. Even on my smaller HP, I don't use one.
post #1750 of 8048
The X35 must be opened up and using a special cable somehing is flashed on the board. It can not be done with the regular firmware update. Thats the info I got from my dealer, and a JVC tech guy will come monday to update the unit. From all others I head the same. And I am sure JVC would just send a bew firmare to customers or dealer if they could, to safe costs.
All current X35 on stock at JVC wherehouse are supposebly already fixed.
post #1751 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Reborn View Post

If I remember correctly, I think the current firmware of my X35 is 29.001
Is this the same # as those problematic European X35's?

My RS46 EU modell

post #1752 of 8048
My RS46 unfortunately jvc Center back streaking problem.
fw update is going to think or Exchange the machine.
post #1753 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Respect. I enjoyed it quite a bit but there some pretty harsh dark ghosting scenes. wink.gif
In terms of your other post this is the second time I'm hearing about the 4k whine in this shootout link, so I'd be interested in your take on the X55. As well I don't know if you saw the other link in your post from Denmark? where they had their own "Jason shoot out"! ==> here Pretty interesting if you can get by the translation issues!
And is it just me or do you see a much different coloring of the internal glass on the new bulb (the RS55 looks almost yellowish??

Krichter1

Actully its from Germany wink.gif ( or you can bet on, that I would have been there:D )

Anyway, I like the conclusion smile.gif : you get, what you pay for = 1000ES is the most expensive projector, but offer the best quality all over, and after that, the very expensive, but very good X95 do a wonderfull job to ( sad it has problems with the 96 hz buzzing, but it hopfully will be directed ).


dj
post #1754 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it's just a reflection from the camera angle, they both look clear.
thanks for the link, there is good info in that mini-shootout. They mention something about the X35 firmware:
"3D display with instantaneous firmware ghosting-afflicted"
overall it seems their favorites were the HW50 and X55.

Zombie10k

You forgot the 1000ES wink.gifbiggrin.gif


dj
post #1755 of 8048
Thanks for the answer, i was starting to be a little worried and thinking of use the nd filter or move away from the center cone of the screen to low the lumens, but in that case... cool! How about the black level of the 5020 on the 2.8 high power 119`screen, what do you think? I have the european epson tw3200 (powerlite 8350 in the US), it will be mutch better or just a little because of the high gain? How it will be in comparation with the epson 8350, the sony hw 50 and the jvc x35?
Thanks
post #1756 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by lgreis View Post

Thanks for the answer, i was starting to be a little worried and thinking of use the nd filter or move away from the center cone of the screen to low the lumens, but in that case... cool! How about the black level of the 5020 on the 2.8 high power 119`screen, what do you think? I have the european epson tw3200 (powerlite 8350 in the US), it will be mutch better or just a little because of the high gain? How it will be in comparation with the epson 8350, the sony hw 50 and the jvc x35?
Thanks
With the JVC, you just have to close the iris down. With the iris open, you can get close to 1000 lumens and with it close, you can get in the 350-400 range. I have the HP2.4 screen at eye level. With the iris open, I can get close to 50ftL and most likely more. With it closed, I should be in the 16-20ftL range.
post #1757 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Zombie10k

You forgot the 1000ES wink.gifbiggrin.gif

dj

They certainly did like the 1000 as well. For the $$, i'd like to see much more 3D lumens vs. the current 5K and under projectors. I imagine if they did a V2.0 next year, it might have the lamp pulsing tech.

what projector did you end up with?
post #1758 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Careful on that temptation... are you sure the other side of the bend doesn't feed air somewhere else??

Zombie10K. You are indeed the man but you are not a thermal engineer and Sony employs one to design the cooling in its projectors. I would refrain from trying an ad hoc change. If it would have helped without affecting something else Sony would have done it. The intake shape considers I would suspect laminar and turbulent air flows and drasticall changing the intake shapre tunnel, let's call it, could really adversely affect things such as laminar air flow to the bulb and would clearly void the warranty with respect to any heat deterioration.

I plan on visiting you over Christmass to bring you my Sony 1000ES so we compare the 4.$k native upscaled 1080p image to the pseudo 4K image thrown by the eshift 2 on the JVCs. I am awaiting caterac surgery on Jan 23 and I can't drive at night so all my travel will have to be during dayligh but its under 3 hours each way.
post #1759 of 8048
Good luck on the surgery. You can always get some medical weed and if its good enough it might make your 3d experience 10 times better lol.


Instead of finding ghosting problems you will be the one ghosting.
post #1760 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I run two of these boxes. They are a much cheaper solution. The only draw back is they take up more room compared to a single PC tower.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816132016
They connect to your PC via a 2 port eSata card which does port multiplication. For simple storage it's all you really need. The card supplied does various forms of RAID but I choose to run them in a JBOD configuration for ease of use and setup.


Will those boxes allow you to run all 8 drives in raid. I use Sans Digital 5 drive boxes, but I believe that the Sans Digital 8 drive box won't let you use all 8 drives in one raid configuration
post #1761 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Zombie buddy i read that comment in avforums, is this right?
Originally Posted by fredwatt
7) The epson has full active 3D 1080p in each eye - the sony does not (as I read in a review)

I doubt that. In fact, I thought it was Epson LCD panels (with 480Hz technology) that uses an interlaced method to transfer information to the LCD panel faster so it can operate, effectively, at 480Hz (since a full 1080p HD picture can only be 'written' to the LCD in 1/240s). Don't know if it actually functions at 480Hz, though that's what the marketing would have you believe. I think this tech was at least used in the Panasonic PT-AE7000U, as explained here: http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/Panasonic_PTAT5000/PT-AT5000_Test-Final.htm

Sony should have the full 1080p image going to the panels, at 96Hz for 24p Blu-Ray, according to audiohobbit.
post #1762 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I'm pretty sure my UK X35 is this firmware, but I'll check next time I switch it on. If it's only for 3D then not a big deal as I didn't buy the glasses or emitter, but if it's only a matter of a firmware update not a big issue.

You might want to do it to protect your resale though Kelvin (you might not care about 3D but the next bloke you sell to just might!). wink.gif
post #1763 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Zombie10K. You are indeed the man but you are not a thermal engineer and Sony employs one to design the cooling in its projectors. I would refrain from trying an ad hoc change. If it would have helped without affecting something else Sony would have done it. The intake shape considers I would suspect laminar and turbulent air flows and drasticall changing the intake shapre tunnel, let's call it, could really adversely affect things such as laminar air flow to the bulb and would clearly void the warranty with respect to any heat deterioration.
I plan on visiting you over Christmass to bring you my Sony 1000ES so we compare the 4.$k native upscaled 1080p image to the pseudo 4K image thrown by the eshift 2 on the JVCs. I am awaiting caterac surgery on Jan 23 and I can't drive at night so all my travel will have to be during dayligh but its under 3 hours each way.

Hopefully that cataract surgery helps your reading skills... he was talking about the JVC RS55. tongue.gifwink.gif

What happened to my phone call today? smile.gif
post #1764 of 8048
There's very interesting comments about Sony HW50 3D from hdtvtest site.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-vpl-hw50es-review-201212042380.htm?page=Picture%20Quality

Can anybody test about this in 3D?
Quote:
Does the VPL-HW50ES have any weaknesses in the third dimension? Yes, but they’re small. It did not reproduce a full 1920×1080 image during our testing, failing to resolve discrete white and black 1-pixel transitions in our 3D frame-packed resolution test. Just to be clear, Sony’s projector is not the only “Full HD 3D” device to use the phrase “Full HD” a little creatively. However, the resolution limitation didn’t affect our enjoyment of 3D movies on the projector. Unlike plasma televisions which feature a temporally inconsistent resolution limitation in 3D, the Sony VPL-HW50ES’s slightly softer 3D image didn’t produce flicker or jaggies. Judging from other user discussion of the HW50, the issue has gone unnoticed, largely due to the scarcity of commercially available 3D test signals. There is also the possibility that the manufacturers are not (collectively) aware of their own product’s limitations, for this same reason.
post #1765 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

There's very interesting comments about Sony HW50 3D from hdtvtest site.
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-vpl-hw50es-review-201212042380.htm?page=Picture%20Quality
Can anybody test about this in 3D?

Oh that's very interesting. Thanks for the link. I wish they described their test pattern better.

I'm wondering if what they're saying is that the 120Hz switching is actually a little too fast for the panels to switch from black to white, hence ghosting which can, in turn, affect the MTF of patterns?

Maybe this is why we all find the need to crank RC up higher in 3D than in 2D...
post #1766 of 8048
Quote:
Oh that's very interesting. Thanks for the link. I wish they described their test pattern better.

The pattern is just horizontal and vertical resolution checks with single-pixel white and black lines. The HW50 does not resolve these.

(The pattern also has variations of the same thing with different luminance levels to catch out Plasma displays which draw some subfields at lessened resolution, like the "Full HD 3D" Panasonics).
post #1767 of 8048
At the moment my 6010 is working just fine. I'll give it a hug and just keep it thanks very much! Upgrading is such a dilemma with all the reports of issues with just about every projector discussed in this thread, including the Epsons. Maybe I got lucky. Touch wood.
post #1768 of 8048
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_hs10 View Post

Can someone please tell me how to test for convergence and focus on a jvc? Thanks

Download the AVS test disc / patterns here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration
post #1769 of 8048
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

The pattern is just horizontal and vertical resolution checks with single-pixel white and black lines. The HW50 does not resolve these.

(The pattern also has variations of the same thing with different luminance levels to catch out Plasma displays which draw some subfields at lessened resolution, like the "Full HD 3D" Panasonics).

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-vpl-hw50es-review-201212042380.htm?page=Picture%20Quality

David, thanks for the great info in your review. I had a few quick questions / comments.

Are you running those patterns in the 2D -> 3D conversion or is this a frame packed 3D source? Regarding the comment on the 3D resolution, I noticed last year my HW30 was the only projector I reviewed that looked a little soft in 3D compared to the JVC, Epson, BenQ, etc. I'm projecting on a 142" screen so sharpness stands out here (for good or for bad). The HW50 with the RC in 3D seems to counteract the effect I was seeing on the HW30 and overall looks quite good in 3D.

I'm curious if you've run the resolution test on the JVC projectors. They look naturally sharp in 3D, similar to my experience with the 3D DLPs.




3D Calibration - I don't recall this being discussed much in the past. The color shift with the 3D glasses is something that always bothered me with 3D and takes away from the overall presentation since my brain knows I am looking through tinted glasses and color that isn't right. I figured it could be calibrated out with the glasses in front of the meter.

Your before / after 3D calibration looks very similar to my results as well with red being way down before the calibration. I had to pull back green and blue quite a bit to compensate.


"After calibration through the active-shutter glasses to essentially remove the tint they add to the picture, the Sony VPL-HW50 produced some of the best 3D video we’ve seen to date. Even before calibration, it was no slouch.

If you’ve seen projected 3D video calibrated, you’re in a very fortunate position, because the practice isn’t widespread. The improvement calibration made on the Sony VPL-HW50ES was huge, though, and honestly has to be seen to be believed. We’re sure that most of our readers have had the experience of sitting in a cinema and pulling polarised 3D glasses in and out of their view and noting that the colours never look completely right either way. After seeing so many compromised cinema presentations of 3D films, watching them naturally coloured on a high quality, calibrated home projector like the VPL-HW50ES is really special. In our case, we tinted the picture coming out of the projector to be overly red, so that it would look correct seen through the glasses (we covered the process in the calibration section on the previous page)."


I'm glad you found the same positive results. The last HW50 I calibrated looked excellent through the glasses with 'people' movies (non-animations).


White field uniformity - our experience here differs a bit, I've only seen 2 HW50's so far, but both were relatively consistent with white field and gray field uniformity. Definitely better than the Epson's I've seen recently. I think the JVC's usually lead in this area.

Reality Creation- you have a good perspective on reality creation. I agree that each year there is an expectation of new features. This year it was reality creation for Sony, Super Resolution for Epson (a leftover from last year) and E-shift 2 for the JVC's. Plus we have the Darbee which has been wildly popular even with video purists. Each technology attempts to create sharper image in their own unique way.

All of these processing techniques are acquired tastes, but they seem popular with the masses so far. I like using the reality creation with the setting at minimum on the resolution since I sit relatively close @ 1.25 from the 142" 16:9.

This is a great review, everyone interested in the HW50 should take the time to read it.
post #1770 of 8048
Thread Starter 
FYI -RS4810's are shipping from AVScience today. 2 full weeks to spare before X-mas for those that got their pre-orders in early. smile.gif
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