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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 84

post #2491 of 8074
No, because neither him nor Art stated what mode(s) did or did not work for 3D, and once 3D is enabled if the mode that was working still produced the same lumens as the 2D mode.
You will find a major drop in most cases, that projectors like the Benq w7000 (2000 Lumens in 2D, 1100 in 3D), Optoma hd33 (1300-1500 in 2D, 800? in 3d), and the Acer h9500bd (1500+ in 2D, 700 in 3d), and the JVC RS-45 (1100+ in 2D torch, 800-1000 or so in 3D)... I think the Epson was more like 1400-1600 in 3D depending on your calibration, etc...

See the problem, could be 1200 lumens in 2D, and 500 in 3D, we just don't know. Those are raw 3D lumens before the glasses (the fL our eyes see is much lower after the glasses, 70% to 75% loss generally).
Edited by coderguy - 12/27/12 at 6:03pm
post #2492 of 8074
Go
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

No, because neither him nor Art stated what mode(s) did or did not work for 3D, and once 3D is enabled if the mode that was working still produced the same lumens as the 2D mode.
You will find a major drop in most cases, that projectors like the Benq w7000 (2000 Lumens in 2D, 1100 in 3D), Optoma hd33 (1300-1500 in 2D, 800? in 3d), and the Acer h9500bd (1500+ in 2D, 700 in 3d), and the JVC RS-45 (1100+ in 2D torch, 800-1000 or so in 3D)... I think the Epson was more like 1400-1600 in 3D depending on your calibration, etc...
See the problem, could be 1200 lumens in 2D, and 500 in 3D, we just don't know. Those are raw 3D lumens before the glasses (the fL our eyes see is much lower after the glasses, 70% to 75% loss generally).

Agreed... I thought you were just complaining about the use of ftL rather than lumens. I really wish they'd pick a common pair of glasses and measure behind the glasses.
post #2493 of 8074
I wrote a projector calculator, hopefully I know what fL is by now and have a pretty good feel, if not so sad my bad...
I don't think I'd be complaining about what format they gave it in, more about their shoddy methods.
post #2494 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I wrote a projector calculator, hopefully I know what fL is by now and have a pretty good feel, if not so sad my bad...
I don't think I'd be complaining about what format they gave it in, more about their shoddy methods.

That made me laugh... Reading/responding faster than advised on a phone I sometimes miss key words (3D) and forget that many here know significantly more about the topic than I!
post #2495 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Up 3D is good, I'm just not a fan of the story. My issue when they re-render an animation that wasn't designed for 3D in mind, is that it's mainly depth with little to no popouts. The re-rendered Toy Story's and Shrek's are a good example with the last having the 'wow' 3D.
I am looking forward to seeing Monsters Inc get the 3D treatment. Also Despicable Me 2 is coming out next year.. one of my favorite 3D animations.
what projectors are you deciding upon?

Sony HW50 or JVC RS46. I could MAYBE swing the RS4810, but that would really be stretching my budget.
post #2496 of 8074
hw50 if going 3D, simple as that. As a matter of fact,if faced with the same decision (given the extra 3D lumens of the hw50 and cleaner 3D vs. the RS-45 I now own), I would now take the hw50 instead of the RS-45/46. Of course depending on price, if you can get the w7000 + RS-46 for near the same price, then two projectors might be better. I would go view a Sony hw50 first if you can though. Of course I've been too lazy to go out and see the hw50 (only because I am not considering buying it), had 2 chances to see one but got too busy at work. Also, just a reminder, anyone can go see the Sony 4k at the Cinema on the commercial 4K theaters, no idea how this matches up to the vw1000 (I can tell you the commercial version will have much worse blacks, and might not be setup right, might have a fading lamp, etc..).

As much as I appreciate the great blacks of the JVC, it very much sounds like the hw50 is beating the Epson now (both with a more invisible IRIS and getting darker blacks), then I'd take the Sony over the RS-45/46. The Sony hw50 has gotta be getting pretty close to the RS-45/46 in black levels, so I'm sure I'd be able to live with it. However, there is the focus uniformity issue, but it's not so visible in video content (I've owned many projectors with focus uniformity issues, JVC doesn't have the issue). For HTPC, might be slightly annoying, but otherwise I doubt you'd notice much (that's my take).
post #2497 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

hw50 if going 3D, simple as that. As a matter of fact,if faced with the same decision (given the extra 3D lumens of the hw50 and cleaner 3D vs. the RS-45 I now own), I would now take the hw50 instead of the RS-45/46. Of course depending on price, if you can get the w7000 + RS-46 for near the same price, then two projectors might be better. I would go view a Sony hw50 first if you can though. Of course I've been too lazy to go out and see the hw50 (only because I am not considering buying it), had 2 chances to see one but got too busy at work. Also, just a reminder, anyone can go see the Sony 4k at the Cinema on the commercial 4K theaters, no idea how this matches up to the vw1000 (I can tell you the commercial version will have much worse blacks, and might not be setup right, might have a fading lamp, etc..).
As much as I appreciate the great blacks of the JVC, it very much sounds like the hw50 is beating the Epson now (both with a more invisible IRIS and getting darker blacks), then I'd take the Sony over the RS-45/46. The Sony hw50 has gotta be getting pretty close to the RS-45/46 in black levels, so I'm sure I'd be able to live with it. However, there is the focus uniformity issue, but it's not so visible in video content (I've owned many projectors with focus uniformity issues, JVC doesn't have the issue). For HTPC, might be slightly annoying, but otherwise I doubt you'd notice much (that's my take).

I've been leaning towards Sony for a few reasons. 1. Cheaper overall cost as I want 3D and by the time you add RF emitter and glasses the JVC eclipses the HW50 in price. 2. As mentioned already, I'm interested in 3D. Though it will only be 5-10% of my viewing, I still want to be able to view a pleasing 3D experience. I actually dont have anywhere nearby to see the Sony. The only places I can see something close is Best Buy/Mag, which have the HW30 and a local high end retailer which also only have the HW30 on display and dont plan on displaying the HW50 until after selling out of the 30. My local JVC dealer just informed me they have no plans to display the X-35 and are going right to the X-75. So I have to rely on what I hear/read online. Not something I typically like doing.
post #2498 of 8074
I have the same question... I want to know how the rs46 will perform against the Sony, with the new firmware and with it's own glasses and emitter... I am sure that in 2d will outperform the Sony and if it has an acceptable 3d... Zombie tested 4810 with the Sony but rs46 is brighter! What I want to read before i deside is jvc rs46 (firmware update) with darbee vs sony 50es...
post #2499 of 8074
The hw30 should give you a general idea, though the hw50 is going to be brighter (and with RC enabled, sharper). Keep in mind that you can use different emitters and glasses with the JVC though (and all these projectors), so don't even order the JVC glasses IMO, they aren't as good as others (never tried the new ones, but similar I'm guessing). So don't really count the glasses as part of the cost unless they are not only throwing them in free, but also giving you a good pair of free glasses.
post #2500 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The hw30 should give you a general idea, though the hw50 is going to be brighter (and with RC enabled, sharper). Keep in mind that you can use different emitters and glasses with the JVC though (and all these projectors), so don't even order the JVC glasses IMO, they aren't as good as others (never tried the new ones, but similar I'm guessing). So don't really count the glasses as part of the cost unless they are not only throwing them in free, but also giving you a good pair of free glasses.

I know I can, but the few reviews I've read re: the new RF glasses is that they are a great improvement over previous generation ones. They also have a much lower tint that isn't as colored. I like the look of the Xpands, but they seem to have a very dark tint compared to others.
post #2501 of 8074
Stephen Withers tested both (new firmware and glasses) and by the score that he gives seems that jvc is better than sony... I am waiting Jason's review to decide... :-)


http://www.avforums.com/reviews/JVC-DLA-X35-X35BE-X35WE-3D-DILA-Projector-Review_452/Review.html
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Sony-VPL-HW50ES-SXRD-3D-Projector-Review_413/Review.html
post #2502 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl7gr View Post

Stephen Withers tested both (new firmware and glasses) and by the score that he gives seems that jvc is better than sony... I am waiting Jason's review to decide... :-)
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/JVC-DLA-X35-X35BE-X35WE-3D-DILA-Projector-Review_452/Review.html
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Sony-VPL-HW50ES-SXRD-3D-Projector-Review_413/Review.html

Yep, read both those. There's a lot adding to my overall indecisiveness. Though, given I'll be coming from a 7 year old 32" Panasonic LCD, I think either of them are going to be a bit of an upgrade. biggrin.gif
post #2503 of 8074
I am coming from rs45 which I really liked except 3d ghosting. I can get jvc with emitter and glasses at the same price with the Sony, so money is not an object for me...
post #2504 of 8074
As far as comparing lumen output between 3D projectors: It seems to me that the glasses could be measured fairly easily... Set 2D to 3D conversion "On", put up a 100 IRE window, Measure light off the screen both with the glasses and without. Wouldn't that give you an accurate figure to use? So, using hypothetical numbers for ease of understanding, a PJ that had 1000 Lumens in 3D with glasses that passed 50% of the light would be brighter than a 1200 Lumen projector with glasses that only passed 33% of the light. Does that make sense, or am I missing something?
post #2505 of 8074
Maybe Zombie can test the JVC and Sony with sbs 3D material. The Epson is amazing with this type of 3D material. If I were to move to another it has to handle thid type of 3D at least as well as the Epson.
post #2506 of 8074
My REFURB w7000 should be here next week, I'll let people know what I think. Price was good and it comes with 1.03 firmware, Zombie pointed it out to me (Thanks Z). We'll see if I'm still thanking him next week (j/k).
Haven't ordered the glasses yet...

Projector # 12 for me I think since 2006...
Edited by coderguy - 12/27/12 at 7:42pm
post #2507 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

it might be time to break out the hot glue gun. Or create a 'stockade' to hold the lens in place from your heavy bass. smile.gif

Dont give me any ideas! eek.gif This projector is as close overall to 3d nirvana as I have seen (of course things like brightness could still be improved and I would love a more stable lens as well as improved sync with the glasses) and I am bound and determined to resolve this. Looks like I was able to improve and maybe fix the lens movement. Two toothpicks wedged in the joystick and a piece of velcro between the zoom ring and housing may be the ticket from my tests. biggrin.gif

Just watched Sammys in 3d for the first time on the 7000 and WOW was that awesome! Great depth throughout and some amazing pop out moments. No hint of ghosting or flicker and once you throw in the FI......HOLY $HIT! I now know why Zombie and so many others have raved about this one.

Coder,

Good luck on your refurb. I went that route as well and while my first unit had a sharpness issue, my advanced replacement is excellent. So far, I am glad I went this route.
Edited by Toe - 12/27/12 at 10:05pm
post #2508 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Coder,
Good luck on your refurb. I went that route as well and while my first unit had a sharpness issue, my advanced replacement is excellent. So far, I am glad I went this route.

By sharpness issue, do you mean it had a lens problem or just pre-1.03 firmware?

Good to know, I was going to go with a refurb Optoma hd8300 at first, but I missed the timeframe where they had them cheap. I kind of have buyer's remorse a little (just because the hd8300 was my first choice).

Hopefully you guys are right about the FI in 3D, that is why I bought the Benq, although the brightness is great, I am only on a 106" HP screen, so the hd8300 would have been plenty bright enough too in 3D. I figure the sub-par blacks shouldn't be too big of a deal, I mean I didn't buy it to watch space scenes (that's what the JVC is for), I bought it to watch bright 3D.
post #2509 of 8074
Both my machines have/had 1.03. The first unit had a sharpness uniformity issue where I could focus the center/right side of the screen well or the left side but not both. The replacement fixed this (BenQ covered all the shipping).
post #2510 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl7gr View Post

Stephen Withers tested both (new firmware and glasses) and by the score that he gives seems that jvc is better than sony... I am waiting Jason's review to decide... :-)

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/JVC-DLA-X35-X35BE-X35WE-3D-DILA-Projector-Review_452/Review.html
http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Sony-VPL-HW50ES-SXRD-3D-Projector-Review_413/Review.html

There isn't much objective info to go by on these reviews. There is no 3D lumen comparisons, through the lens screenshots or direct A/B comparisons.

If the post firmware RS46/X35 patch makes the 3D the same as the RS4810, then the HW50 is going to exceed it by nearly 2x the 3D output with the CT controls set to factory (0) for minimal crosstalk.

Pre-firmware, the RS46 3D output is ~900 lumens, but with identical performance to the current RS45/55.

The HW50 2D PQ is closer to the JVC this year than the HW30 was last year. It's a tough decision depending on how important 3D is. The HW50 has less flicker and the FI in 3D to consider as well.
post #2511 of 8074
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post


Hopefully you guys are right about the FI in 3D, that is why I bought the Benq, although the brightness is great, I am only on a 106" HP screen, so the hd8300 would have been plenty bright enough too in 3D. I figure the sub-par blacks shouldn't be too big of a deal, I mean I didn't buy it to watch space scenes (that's what the JVC is for), I bought it to watch bright 3D.

you're going to hate this projector, I can't believe you bought it. we're never going to hear the end of this if you don't like it....

this is all toe's fault. btw, the buttkicker is one of the coolest things ever... this is never going to get old.. it's a perfect extension of my subs.
post #2512 of 8074
@Toe or @Zombie
The Benq's dynamic mode is pretty good right?
I assume I will need to keep the Benq in dynamic mode because I am so sensitive when I watch projectors with 4x color wheels unless I am watching only bright scenes with no black mixed in. On a 4x color wheel, I can even see rainbows in bright scenes somewhat (well only like if a guy was wearing a black leather jacket or a jet black car next to bright white or something). Still it's much worse in dark scenes.
post #2513 of 8074
Thread Starter 
see, it's already starting... biggrin.gif

rainbows, red DLP flash, you're done for...

I'm not sure why, but I saw more rainbows on the HC8000 vs the W7000 but I can't explain why. On the HC8000 when I switched to 6x, it was better but the image was a bit flatter (colors) and we lost some lumens.

Most 3D movies have bright scenes, I don't think it will be a problem in 3D but you'll just have to see how it goes.
post #2514 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you're going to hate this projector, I can't believe you bought it. we're never going to hear the end of this if you don't like it....
this is all toe's fault. btw, the buttkicker is one of the coolest things ever... this is never going to get old.. it's a perfect extension of my subs.

The only regret I would have is if Sharp updated the firmware to include FI and then found out it could do 800+ lumens in 3D, then yah I'd want the Sharp instead.

Ahh, I know you're half-joking, but I am watching Fringe on my Pro8200 instead of the JVC right now. My cheap Pro8200 has 3000+ hours on it and I still get 14 fL calibrated lumens in ECO mode, how is that for a $500 refurb going 3000 hours on a lamp. I expect the Benq to beat the Viewsonic, so not too worried, it's my 2D workhorse replacement as well as my 3D. The main thing though is, I can actually watch some of my 3D movies without cringing from the ghosting. My RS-45 is completely a joke with 800 hours on it, saying the ghosting is bad doesn't even describe it, it is completely unwatchable now.
Edited by coderguy - 12/27/12 at 11:17pm
post #2515 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

you're going to hate this projector, I can't believe you bought it. we're never going to hear the end of this if you don't like it....
this is all toe's fault. btw, the buttkicker is one of the coolest things ever... this is never going to get old.. it's a perfect extension of my subs.

Nice! cool.gif Glad you are enjoying the BK! I am still amazed how well it blends in with the sub and just seems like a natural extension.
post #2516 of 8074
The old saying is true, this forum is the most expensive place I ever visited. Geeze, now still have to buy a Lumagen, some b-kicker thing, replace HT speakers, get some super blacker than black materials, more 3D glasses.
When does it stop...
Edited by coderguy - 12/27/12 at 10:57pm
post #2517 of 8074
Both you err guys are getting old, it's menapause, nothing more, nothing less. smile.gif

I do want to clear something else that zombie10K I think said.

My comments about Bluray 1080p be so vastly inferior to 2K and 4K DCI content and feeds. Zombie said what I was seeing, flaws in the bluray 1080p medium being visable on because of my superior projector, the 4K Sony VPL-vw1000ES and my reference quality Stewart Snomatt 100 screen.

That is not the reason. Its comparing DCI feeds to commercial 2K and 4K DCI machines and then viewing the same Bluray material on my 1000ES fed by Bluray 1080p. The greater bit depth and absence of edge enhancement compared to 8 bit and severely edge enhanced Bluray content. My comments thus are not dependent on the quality of the 1080p projectors compared to the 1000ES. The projectors under discussion in this thread are fine machines and for many are their proud possessions chosen in part because of the great information presented by zombie and verified and supllemented by many of the participants here. All these machines like any other machines have strengths and weaknesses. many caused by compromises necessitated because of the price points and some of course by the type of technology employed.

My comments go to the weaknesses of Blurays noticed by me and others whose cmpetence would be recognized by all if I were at liberty to identify them not posting here but who have posted in the past based on their observations of DCI content on their commerciasl quality msachines present in theirs HTs. I hope as the late president Kennedy once said, have I made myself perfectly clear?.
post #2518 of 8074
You are not lying..... I need black material now as well
post #2519 of 8074
I miss my old living room, 20+ foot vaulted ceiling so the PJ beam didn't even reflect off the ceiling (it was better than having a blacked out ceiling).
If I could build the ultimate HT room, it would be 50x50 with a 50 feet ceiling, that is the only way to get TRUE black. Although concentrated light does not diminish much, scattered light reflections go outward so in a large room the amount of light scatter that hits the walls and ceiling is very small (but it takes a gigantic room).

Mom, look at that 6 story house (no son the neighbor just built a new HT add-on ROOM).
Edited by coderguy - 12/27/12 at 11:13pm
post #2520 of 8074
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I miss my old living room at my old place, 20+ foot vaulted ceiling so the PJ beam didn't even reflect off the ceiling (it was better than having a blacked out ceiling).
If I could build the ultimate HT room, it would be 50x50 with a 50 feet ceiling, that is the only way to get TRUE black. Although concentrated light does not diminish much, scattered light reflections go outward so in a large room the amount of light scatter that hits the walls and ceiling is very small (but it takes a gigantic room).
Mom, look at that 6 story house (no son the neighbor just built a new HT add-on ROOM).

Even my lowly x10 looks substantially better in the back yard than it does in the living room... of course, the audio is a different story.
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