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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014 - Page 89

post #2641 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You need what is called a Darby ($350) + RC on the Sony, then you will see all the fine details just like any projector.

so do you mean if we dont use darbee and turn of RC, All projectors have better sharpness than sony?

confused.gif
post #2642 of 8005
No, what I mean is when you blow up images so big to show them that big as we do on projectors, well you need some enhancements to maximize sharpness, as per a TV the image is much smaller and will appear sharper even without enhancements. From seating distance, Zombie has noted the projectors appear to be about the same in sharpness for movies and general viewing.

I have not seen the hw50, but have seen other PJ's with similar lens issues. If you are obsessing on sharpness, the only way to know if it will be good enough for you is to go see it in a showroom, we can't really tell you that for sure. For video though, in A/B it's hard to tell, only when you get close to the screen you can tell some projectors are not as sharp (unless a projector has bad convergence or just such bad focus it's very noticeable). I literally mean you can stare in A/B for 30 seconds from a good bit back and sharpness is hard to see in most movies, a few you can tell more than others, but very very slight. I can see it a little more in the background images like of mountains or oceans or scenery shot on IMAX cameras, but that's about it.
post #2643 of 8005
Setting RC to a lower setting such as 20 the HW50 looks sharper than my RS45 to my eye. My wife even commented on it. I've only watched very good material on it thus far and I've not noticed any more noise in the picture than my RS45 but this isn't an area that I am extremely picky with either.

On a side note, I ordered an ND2 filter for 10 bucks to see how much black levels improve and if it's worth using in 2D. We'll see.
post #2644 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I still use my little LED DLP for watching a quick HDTV show. Centered on the HP, it's watchable for TV. One time I left it on all night.. oh well.. smile.gif
JVC-RS46-3.jpg

I been debating on another LED projector, but I just can't pull the trigger on one for a 3rd, everyday projector. After having one, I don't think its worth it. I just might grab one of the Acers or Benq with the extra long eco bulb that is 6000-7000hrs, they are much brighter, 1080p, and a much better picture. With a 2nd lamp, it should last me 10hrs, if I don't get rid of it. I figure I will only use it 5 days a week for an average of 3-5 hours a day.
post #2645 of 8005
@xb1032
Even in HTPC, does RC help the text appear sharper in HTPC, just curious?
I meant it's hard to tell between projectors when the post-processing is equalized. If you are adding processing, then they need to be exhibiting the same level of smoothness and lack of ringing, or not fair. (it's still a valid comparison, but I can stack sharpness filters and make one PJ appear much sharper than another)... The RC might be a great sharpness algorithm, better than what the RS-45 has, but there are other options to stack sharpness enhancements on the JVC in addition to the Darby as well. Totally depends on convergence luck partly, I can add more sharpening to better converged projectors before I see too much side-effects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I just might grab one of the Acers or Benq with the extra long eco bulb that is 6000-7000hrs, they are much brighter, 1080p, and a much better picture. With a 2nd lamp, it should last me 10hrs, if I don't get rid of it. I figure I will only use it 5 days a week for an average of 3-5 hours a day.

I would look at more than just lamp ratings if wanting to maximize lamp life. First look at starting lumens and then look at projector wattage. In general (beyond lamp quality), the projector producing the most lumens at the lowest wattage will have the longest lasting lamps. I have 3000 hours on my Pro8200 and it can still do 14-18 fL on my HP 2.4 screen in LAMP LOW. I could easily go another 500-1000 hours before even turning it to lamp high unless the lamp starts dying soon. So I am pretty sure I could get 5000-8000 hours out of it on one $225 lamp. That said, I probably will never find out as I've got the Benq on the way so Viewsonic isn't going to get much love now.
Edited by coderguy - 12/29/12 at 1:55pm
post #2646 of 8005
The only difference I can find regarding the JVC RS 4810 is they call it a media room projector vs the RS48 where they don't specifically say "media room". Also there is this AVAD stuff:

Long lasting performance and added value

Specialized final QC
Available exclusively through AVAD custom installers
3 year parts & labor warranty

What is the deal with the 4810 vs the 48?
post #2647 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I would look at more than just lamp ratings if wanting to maximize lamp life. First look at starting lumens and then look at projector wattage. In general the projector producing the most lumens at the lowest wattage will have the longest lasting lamps (in general).
I have 3000 hours on my Pro8200 and it can still do 14-18 fL on my HP 2.4 screen in LAMP LOW. I could easily go another 500-1000 hours before even turning it to lamp high unless the lamp starts dying soon. So I am pretty sure I could get 5000-8000 hours out of it on one $225 lamp. That said, I probably will never find out as I've got the Benq on the way so Viewsonic isn't going to get much love now.

I should be looking at one of the Viewsonics than. Its just getting it to work in my setup with the throw distance on my 120in HP screen. With the JVC, i'm at close to max zoom with the iris completely closed, to maximize all the contrast. After having both a neutral size screen that was 100in and a 120in HP screen, I much prefer this setup now. I had to have the iris at -11 on high lamp for 14ftL, and the HP screen on low lamp at -15 gave me 16ftL. The HP screen just looked better to me, so I sold the SI screen.

So, I'm leaning toward the W1070, I read Kraine's review on it, and its over 1000 lumens in the smart eco mode, that is 6000 hours, supposedly. I hope the bulbs are as cheap as the Sony and Viewsonics, I saw a W7000 replacement bulb was $260, so its cheap enough. Also, it has some lens shift, but I will have to ceiling mount it or find some way to shelve mount it upside down. The throw is good in my setup with the JVC, and that's the reason I had to sell the W7000. I will be able to still get 1.4-1.6 gain, with room for a new 3D projector on my shelf. Still trying to figure it out
post #2648 of 8005
You need to let us know how the two projectors compare, w1070 vs w7000. Almost no-one in the forums has compared these yet, and I don't trust reviewers (I'm done with reviewers).

I would do the Benq w1070 as well in your position assuming it fits from the throw ratio and what not. I wasn't recommending the VS, just giving an example.
VS is good for a cheap backup 2D projector, but given the price of the w1070 and some others these days, I would pay more and get the Benq with 3D for sure. I only paid $500 for the Viewsonic (should have paid $450 but like a dummy I paid $50 for a warranty I never used, maybe it was buying refurb that made me nervous).
post #2649 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post


As long as the Sony HW50 isn't garanteed to look significantly soft, I will give it a try, perhaps try and see one in action in my area, Southern Ontario. I live in Pickering, so the GTA and surrounding area is how far I'd go to see a projector in action.
I too live in Southern Ontario just west of the GTA. I called every authorized Sony dealer on their website in the area and only found 1 to demo the Sony HW50 at. In the end, I feel like I wasted my time as the setup was absolute crap for a projector. There is a decent place to view the JVC's in Hamilton. And it isn't too hard to find the Epsons. I found one locally in KW area. I ended up going with the Sony HW50 and after only 30 hours of mixed content I'm very pleased. If you would like any more details feel free to PM me. Cheers.
post #2650 of 8005
If I were buying a PJ today, I would even buy the Sony hw50 over the JVC RS-45 from what I've read thus far, although I cannot say as compared to higher-end JVC's (RS48 e-shift, etc...), but I am just saying it would be nice to have a PJ that does great 2D and 3D with decent blacks.

Black levels are great, but once you get to Epson 5010 and Sony hw50 levels, even being a SCI FI fan I don't have ALL THAT many movies I watch where that 20% extra black helps much. There are a few, I mean the Harry Potter movies were great to watch when I first got the JVC.
ck
I could have sold my JVC and bought the Sony instead of JVC + Benq, but the last two times I tried to sell a projector the buyer backed out (too much second guessing in this forum).
Edited by coderguy - 12/29/12 at 3:15pm
post #2651 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjsbuyer View Post

I too live in Southern Ontario just west of the GTA. I called every authorized Sony dealer on their website in the area and only found 1 to demo the Sony HW50 at. In the end, I feel like I wasted my time as the setup was absolute crap for a projector. There is a decent place to view the JVC's in Hamilton. And it isn't too hard to find the Epsons. I found one locally in KW area. I ended up going with the Sony HW50 and after only 30 hours of mixed content I'm very pleased. If you would like any more details feel free to PM me. Cheers.

Its hard to find dealers which have a good setup. Boutique dealers are usually your best bet. Thanks for the heads up. I suppose I will PM you and ask a few questions regarding your setup. I should have a look at a JVC RS 46 or 48 just to understand what is involved, but I do think the Sony could be all I need.
Edited by cpc - 12/29/12 at 3:23pm
post #2652 of 8005
Tell me about it, I've driven to many showrooms and been lots of places only to find broken projectors, broken 3D glasses, horrible calibrations, places that don't let you have the remote (or don't know where it is), bad lighting, etc... There are some really good showrooms in some cities, the department stores aren't one of them though :P
post #2653 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

So you got the 3D Bee. How do you like it?

Not yet, but I'm really close. I've just got to convince myself that 2D BDs will look as good or nearly as good as the converted stuff like Avengers and Men in Black III. I'll probably order one in the next day or two after I check my bank account and review the Christmas carnage. biggrin.gif
post #2654 of 8005
The problem with dealers is that they can not afford to offer projector demoes other than HT concept demonstations.. They know that the vast majority of customers will simply waste their time and buy from some online whore (their word, nbot mine) who drops their panties and doesn't have to collect sales tax.When I had a store we simply refused to do demoes for those who were not long established customers and who we knew would pay a little more because of they got a demo. Its called customer qualification, those not qualified are simply not customers but leechers. The market has changed and the model is to buy close to the cheapest possible and get your demo via forums, reviewers where many are not qualified and the like.Thankfully this forum is populated by a few whose judgements are good and who spend a lot of their time doing comparisons with little if any renumeration.
post #2655 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@xb1032
Even in HTPC, does RC help the text appear sharper in HTPC, just curious?
I meant it's hard to tell between projectors when the post-processing is equalized. If you are adding processing, then they need to be exhibiting the same level of smoothness and lack of ringing, or not fair. (it's still a valid comparison, but I can stack sharpness filters and make one PJ appear much sharper than another)... The RC might be a great sharpness algorithm, better than what the RS-45 has, but there are other options to stack sharpness enhancements on the JVC in addition to the Darby as well. Totally depends on convergence luck partly, I can add more sharpening to better converged projectors before I see too much side-effects.
I would look at more than just lamp ratings if wanting to maximize lamp life. First look at starting lumens and then look at projector wattage. In general (beyond lamp quality), the projector producing the most lumens at the lowest wattage will have the longest lasting lamps. I have 3000 hours on my Pro8200 and it can still do 14-18 fL on my HP 2.4 screen in LAMP LOW. I could easily go another 500-1000 hours before even turning it to lamp high unless the lamp starts dying soon. So I am pretty sure I could get 5000-8000 hours out of it on one $225 lamp. That said, I probably will never find out as I've got the Benq on the way so Viewsonic isn't going to get much love now.

I only use my projector for movies and don't have an HTPC connected to it. The HTPC went out of the mix when I got my RS45 because my Denon 3808CI doesn't support 3D so I purchased the Panasonic BDT310 and output video straight to the projector and bypass the AVR. That was fine for me as I use my Samsung LCD for HTPC usage. I don't need to sit in the dark all the time anyway. smile.gif I'll try to remember to check the text off of the Panasonic Blu-Ray menu when I bring it up next. The HW50 has an option to demo which cycles between On/Off and without RC the picture looks a bit softer. I don't think I'd want to use this projector without it. I don't have a Darbee for comparison and for now I plan on being content with what I have so as not to get pulled into the endless array of upgrades we'll all desire if we look at them too much. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If I were buying a PJ today, I would even buy the Sony hw50 over the JVC RS-45 from what I've read thus far, although I cannot say as compared to higher-end JVC's (RS48 e-shift, etc...), but I am just saying it would be nice to have a PJ that does great 2D and 3D with decent blacks.
Black levels are great, but once you get to Epson 5010 and Sony hw50 levels, even being a SCI FI fan I don't have ALL THAT many movies I watch where that 20% extra black helps much. There are a few, I mean the Harry Potter movies were great to watch when I first got the JVC.
ck
I could have sold my JVC and bought the Sony instead of JVC + Benq, but the last two times I tried to sell a projector the buyer backed out (too much second guessing in this forum).

I think cost wise you made a good decision. I figure I'll be selling my RS45 soon and I'll probably sell it for around $1800 with the 3D emitter as my in-laws may want it. For that price + the BenQ your in the ballpark of the HW50. I'm sensitive to flicker as well and I can see it on my HW50 along with mild ghosting but I still think this is a great 3D projector. Much better than the JVC IMO. Hopefully you won't find the contrast lacking. On dark scenes the HW50 could use a contrast boost and the BenQ isn't as good from what I've read.
post #2656 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

This is totally the wrong forum to discuss the art of DIY screen construction and asking if a particular material is siuitable for a particular projector.
Go to the screen forums. Before I completely bitch slap you smile.gif,.
Oups, sorry I am switching between many forums ( fora ? ) and of course had to pick the wrong one biggrin.gif

But thanks for the answer anyway ....
post #2657 of 8005
One can post and participatehere forever without buying a new projector to replace one 4 years old. Why spend money when you can be here to fulfill your spare time. You will save all that money on electricity and bulbs too.
post #2658 of 8005
Thread Starter 
@ xb1032 - did you sort out your glasses sync issue? I meant to post this for you. Can you see all the sensors lit up? it's a bit dim, but does have visible light.

RC1-22.jpg
post #2659 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Not yet, but I'm really close. I've just got to convince myself that 2D BDs will look as good or nearly as good as the converted stuff like Avengers and Men in Black III. I'll probably order one in the next day or two after I check my bank account and review the Christmas carnage. biggrin.gif

Well, it's going to be hit or miss as to how well the conversion works. Some modes don't work really well for complex shots (that is, shots with lots of small details and/or diagonal lines and/or very contrasty objects). I find the movie mode the most effective for a lot of film and television content. I actually like the Bee better than the iRobot conversion (that used JVC tech). IMO it was very poor. They have a good return policy, though, so you can always send it back.
post #2660 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Zombie, you are the master of screen shots.....

hi zombie as a fellow photographer, I must say you do a great job with the screen shots too. what are you using as dslr / lens and what are you focusing on to get exposure on ? or camera mode using as yeah great results
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post


am using panasonic IR glasses (that came in the avataar bonus pack) myself and seem to do a good job no probs. the epson IR glasses seem a good option as over glasses for those that wear spectacles smile.gif
zombie have you had a chance to check out the new JVCs with their RF glasses as yet ?

I know you probably cant answer all the questions thrown at you but wondering re above and whether had the chance as yet ? just wondering if the jvc RF glasses help the 3D at all ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

The HW50 are 5020 are my favorite 'all around' 2D/3D projectors this year even though they are quite different. The Epson has wide pixel spacing, so there is a small chance of catching the pixel structure with a large screen at a close seating distance. I am @ 14 feet from my 142" and it doesn't bother me, but I've seen it once in a while in very bright BD's like the Art of the Flight.
To answer the Q, why the Epson vs the Sony, the Epson has some very bright 'torch' modes for ambient light viewing. This could be a requirement depending on the setup. The Epson also has great RF glasses that are bit more comfortable that a Sony. Much of this come down to personal preference. The Sony also has FI in 3D which is a welcome addition. the Epson is brighter than the Sony in 3D.
If your used to the older Mits and Epson LCD's, the 5020 or the HW50 would be a great upgrade.

interesting I always thought that was a factor of screen weave ? ie like a moire where screen weave matches pixel structure, is this pixel structure not visible on other pjs ? have also seen ocassionally very bright snow scenes explosions etc smile.gif
post #2661 of 8005
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

hi zombie as a fellow photographer, I must say you do a great job with the screen shots too. what are you using as dslr / lens and what are you focusing on to get exposure on ? or camera mode using as yeah great results

I know you probably cant answer all the questions thrown at you but wondering re above and whether had the chance as yet ? just wondering if the jvc RF glasses help the 3D at all ?

interesting I always thought that was a factor of screen weave ? ie like a moire where screen weave matches pixel structure, is this pixel structure not visible on other pjs ? have also seen ocassionally very bright snow scenes explosions etc smile.gif

Hi, thanks for the comments. The camera is Nikon D90 with a small 18-55 lens that is great for the 'behind the glasses' screenshots. The exposures are manual and adjusted to reflect a general idea of what it looks like on my HP screen which is quite bright since I keep the projectors near eye level for maximum gain.

I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to see the 3D glasses. I don't expect a major difference, the lumen output isn't going to change. The 5020 is one of the brightest i've seen so far, @ 1400 3D lumens.

The pixel structure on the 5020 doesn't bother me @ 14 feet from my 142" screen. I was mentioning it since someone with good eyes, a closer seating distance, etc might catch it in a bright scene. It's a none issue for me.
post #2662 of 8005
This is an amazing thread and I am getting some great info for an eventual upgrade. I am coming from an epson 8350, so any of the 3 I am considering will likely be amazing. What I am trying to figure out is the brightness in calibrated 2d mode along with the contrast in that 2d calibrated best mode for these three projectors: hw50, 5020, and rs46. I would prefer 3d not be completely worthless, but it is hardly a high priority for me. I have a 140" screen 1.1 gain, so my biggest concern is a nice bright image with great black/contrast in 2d. It sounds like if I am willing to swallow fairly useless 3d that the JVC is the best combo of 2d brightness and contrast, but what I can't quite figure out is what does a better job at brightness with good contrast in 2d between the sony hw50 and the epson 5020. Anyone know which has the darker blacks while maintaining a nice bright image?

Thanks again for all the amazing info in this thread thus far.
post #2663 of 8005
Thread Starter 
First viewing with the ceiling blackout. This took longer than I was expecting since I had to custom cut a number of tiles. You can see I still have some more work to do. The grid will be blacked out with either the Dalite velvet 'pro-trim' or the telescope material.

I've been waiting to do this until I found the exact 2x2 tile I wanted. I wanted it pitch black and flat, no texture. The prime-acoustic surface is covered with a very dark black fiberglass material. It's eats light up even in the brightest scenes on the HP screen.

Since my screen is so close to my ceiling (it's basically an entire wall @ 12 ft wide) the light was causing major reflections around the room. Now it looks like tunnel with the exception of grid which I'll have done soon.

Overall an amazing transformation. Between this and the buttkickers, I'm in HT nirvana tonight. biggrin.gif


blackout.jpg


2nd photo is overexposed a bit to show the grid. This is the Epson 5020.. it looks very good overall with the Dark Knight Rises. It's not quite like the JVC in the darkest scenes, but it can definitely hold it own with this movie.


blackout1.jpg
post #2664 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

First viewing with the ceiling blackout. This took longer than I was expecting since I had to custom cut a number of tiles. You can see I still have some more work to do. The grid will be blacked out with either the Dalite velvet 'pro-trim' or the telescope material.

I've been waiting to do this until I found the exact 2x2 tile I wanted. I wanted it pitch black and flat, no texture. The prime-acoustic surface is covered with a very dark black fiberglass material. It's eats light up even in the brightest scenes on the HP screen.

Since my screen is so close to my ceiling (it's basically an entire wall @ 12 ft wide) the light was causing major reflections around the room. Now it looks like tunnel with the exception of grid which I'll have done soon.

Overall an amazing transformation. Between this and the buttkickers, I'm in HT nirvana tonight. biggrin.gif


blackout.jpg


2nd photo is overexposed a bit to show the grid. This is the Epson 5020.. it looks very good overall with the Dark Knight Rises. It's not quite like the JVC in the darkest scenes, but it can definitely hold it own with this movie.


blackout1.jpg

Man that looks amazing. I am now on prowl for blackouts and HP screen to redo my room. I have already warned the WAF to expect a little neck warmth to deal with the pj warmth across the neck. Any reco's on who to contact for a screen like yours, awesome !
post #2665 of 8005
@zombie10k can you please post the same film scene with hw50es?
post #2666 of 8005
That looks awesome Zombie! Nice work! smile.gif
post #2667 of 8005
Nice work. I did something similar in my previous home theatre bed-room. It was a basement bedroom. I glue gunned my own black felt onto the tiles and then painstakingly put it on the grid too. I blacked out the ceiling almost as far out as the screen height, and also blacked out the sides, all with black velvet. It did a good job, except, back then, it actually made the high black levels of my projector stand out.
post #2668 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

@ xb1032 - did you sort out your glasses sync issue? I meant to post this for you. Can you see all the sensors lit up? it's a bit dim, but does have visible light.
RC1-22.jpg

Not yet and thanks for the tip!

I setup my RS45 in the same location and moved it to the side so that I could place the external JVC emitter right where the Sony emitter was and it worked fine. I toyed around with it some and I could simulate the same problem I am seeing by aiming the JVC emitter at an angle towards the side. I'll have to look at the emitter to see if I see all the lights one like in your pic. It's almost as if the emitter isn't aimed correctly inside the projector but I do find it odd that the Sony glasses are picking up the signal much better than the Xpands.

Mike is going to contact Sony to see if I can get an external emitter instead of replacing the unit.

The black levels aren't quite as good as the JVC however I'm really starting to like this projector. We watched Christmas Carol (Allistar Sim Black and White version) and it looked very good. With FI on low the motion looked better than the JVC and with RC set at it's minimum the pic looked nice crisp. Even my wife is noticing the difference in clarity which comments like that doesn't often very happen.

Nice look with the tiles. You'll have to note how much difference in contrast you see with darker carpet. I have light tan carpet with a finished black ceiling but I wonder how much reflections actually reflect back onto the screen from carpet considering that.the HP screen reflects light back at the projectors lens instead of in every direction.
post #2669 of 8005
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

@xb1032
Even in HTPC, does RC help the text appear sharper in HTPC, just curious?...

I checked a Panasonic Blu-Ray screen text as well as the Sony Menu text for RC and when turning on and off the text was slightly clearer but it looked like the text was changing to bold font. This wasn't as noticeable on the larger font in the Panasonic Blu-Ray Menu but it was noticeable on the smaller Sony font for Reality Creation.
post #2670 of 8005
hey ZOMBIE new member, still trying to decide between x55 jvc and the sony hw50 (not released here yet) I am unable to view an of these in the area only the 6020 so whats u final thoughts. I love blacks as black as they can be but want a allround good pj some 3d but mostly 2d bluray from oppo. screen will be 120'' 16 x9 1.3 gain ? any screen shots comparing the 2 would be great cheers chriso
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